Can the provinces ever hope to emulate the Leinster academy?

awec wrote: »

Excellent news so, all the IRFU need to do is move some of the Leinster schools coaches to the other provinces and we'll all be overflowing with elite talent in a few years time. It's that simple.

They don’t have to move coaches, the coaches themselves aren’t the silver bullet.

It’s PDOs and PROs and CROs and all kinds of other Os. And that is something Leinster did very early on to great effect. So we’re seeing schools become massively efficient, we’re seeing clubs become far more productive. And it’s not something that was given to us on a silver platter.

Michaels didn’t just get lucky and hire a great coach, no one here is claiming that even though you clearly would prefer if that was our argument.

awec wrote: »

Indeed, while taking advantage of the fact it has a lot of private schools that can afford to coach players to the level that they need, and a large middle class able to afford those things.

No wait, sorry. Having schools that can afford to coach at a high level and having a middle class able to pay for it is irrelevant.

Leinster could have sent those PDOs to any school in the province and they'd be churning out talent now.

You’re just not listening to the points. The number of private schools is not relevant, that’s very clear. Surely you can understand that after it being explained right?

Deleted User wrote: »

I can't speak for all rugby playing school but the ones I'd know well enough haven't noticeably increased their enrolment in decades.


I'd say that's exactly what would happen... eventually. Schools are great for sports for two reasons. Unlike a club, you can't just stop showing up on a Saturday so schools tend to hold onto WAY more of their players through the years.

But there then is issues with schools and retention into the adult game. Not always an issue with the "stronger"/"better" kids but is with the more social players who may play a year or two after school at 20s but then "retire" aged 20/21

In places where it's less likely you will start losing loads of lads from junior cert on.

It's not that different in the GAA, some clubs are much bigger feeder clubs to the Dublin panel than others and this comes down to coaching but also track record and belief in my opinion.

Yes but if you can have clubs also playing it helps retain kids. Playing 3rds or 4ths can demoralise some but if theyre in a club and are on main team/only team in an age group it could be difference between them playing and not.

I think Leinster just have a perfect storm of ingredients that has delivered a good generation of players. Things may improve or we may find that this is a golden time for the academies.

It's not that long ago that we couldn't produce forwards but efforts were made and now were certainly the top back row factory in the world, whatever about other forward positions.

I don't know anything about the Ulster academy so I don't want to comment on what they are doing right or wrong, but the wider game at grass roots would look to need an overhaul which gets pushed down the priority list when the first team is struggling with more immediate problems.

Considering the schools game is still quite strong in Ulster there is an overhaul needed and perhaps a change involving more integration between schools and clubs is needed as well as change to the actual schools cup format. and integration of players into adult rugby. there is virtually no under 20 rugby in ulster which is a good thing IMO but perhaps there should be more age graded 20s or even under 22/23 rugby to try keep more playing rather than once you leave school you're in open grade rugby

awec wrote: »

Well, that's what you keep saying, yet are unable to back it up. Can you explain how you think having more private schools is not advantageous for Leinster?

Look at the Leinster senior cup. Compare it to Munster and Ulster. That's not advantageous?

I have backed it up. Either you’re not reading it or you don’t understand.

awec wrote: »

Ok. So why is it that Leinster can afford to do this and the other provinces cannot?

IBF says it has nothing to do with economics or an increased population to feed these schools, so I would assume the fact there are lots of private fee paying schools is not the answer here. I am curious as to what exactly Leinster Rugby have done to enable this.

It's nothing really to do with Leinster Rugby, or at best it's partly through technical support from them.

Schools rugby is very competitive and well funded by the schools themselves. It's been gradual and happened over a long period of time. From the days when teachers coached through to now having dedicated professional coaching along with weights programmes and strength and conditioninig etc. If you want to compete, you have to ramp up the effort. That pays off with more and more schools following the blueprint and producing the players in schools that would never traditionally have had an impact.

Just look at Jack Conan and Steve Crosbie coming from a school like St. Gerards with perhaps only 40 or 50 boys in a single year. Or Roscrea winning the schools senior cup. These were never traditionally strong schools at rugby. Strictly Vinny Murray level at best. Or St. Andrews with Larmour and Porter.

But more than the spread of talent or the increase in competition is the condition these guys are attainiing at such an early stage. There's a video I saw recently of Larmour squatting 170Kg while he was in school.

Deleted User wrote: »

Cash and investment is one thing, but coaching and track record are a good deal important. Have a look at the secondary schools GAA champions list in order of titles won.

No surprised there is just a handful of schools hoarding most of the titles. Is that because those schools are in wealthy middle class areas? I didn't realise Longford was the centre for capitalism in Leinster.

Coaching and track record are good deal important but in terms of schools gaa quite often those at top are Diocesan Schools that were boarding Like Mels have by far most gaelic titles but they were boarding and havent won title since boarding closed. Same with Flannans dominating in munster hurling, Brendans Killarney have most munster football schools titles

prawnsambo wrote: »

It's nothing really to do with Leinster Rugby, or at best it's partly through technical support from them.

"Nothing".

Absolutely false.

awec wrote: »

Bingo.

Leinster are very fortunate to have numerous schools capable of funding rugby to the level that they do.

Very weak excuse-making. Ulster are also lucky to have their own private schools. And rather than looking over the fence at their neighbours with envy, they should ask why the small number of very elite rugby schools in Leinster are more productive than the very small number of very elite rugby schools in Ulster.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

"Nothing".

Absolutely false.

Yes. On it's own. DId you stop reading after 'nothing'?

Ulster U18s beat Leinster U18s twice this season, including at Donnybrook.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

You said its nothing to do with Leinster rugby, or partly through their support. That's just completely false.

You then went on to contradict yourself, but it was still a silly point. Leinster community/development officers have been a huge part in convincing schools to push their standards much higher. Clubs too of course, and we're really seeing great production from Youths now as well. Saying it's "nothing" to do with Leinster rugby competely devalues the rest of your post.

I meant nothing financially which was what awec seemed to be suggesting. I absolutely agree that the development officers' work has been massive.

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Awec is not just suggesting its financial. He's saying that Leinster's success is down to a number of things outside of our contorl, including the number of private schools, economics and our huge population.

He used the word 'afford' in his reply to me. That suggested a financial input by Leinster.