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Can the provinces ever hope to emulate the Leinster academy?

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  • #32
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Lets stop pretending that the provinces are all starting off on an equal footing to start with.
    Haha, noone is. Certainly Leinster, Munster and Ulster are all miles ahead of Connacht while all being fairly similarly supported.
    awec wrote: »
    1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?
    This is actual nonsense, there are other professional sports in Dublin. It's almost as good a description of Ulster as it is of Leinster.
    awec wrote: »
    2. The majority of the population of Ireland live in Leinster
    And if 99% of them played soccer Leinster rugby would be atrocious. You're throwing facts here that we already know without stopping to ask yourself if maybe a bit of context might help you to understand the question I've asked.
    awec wrote: »
    3. Leinster has more schools than any other province.
    Not sure of the relevance of that either without some evidence of rugby participation rather than assumptions.
    awec wrote: »
    4. The movement of people from other provinces to Dublin further makes things interesting for Leinster. If you looked at all the Leinster players it would be curious to know what percentage of them have Leinster-born parents. I bet this is a lot lower than the other provinces.
    This is also entirely irrelevant if people moving to Leinster subsequently take up GAA or soccer.
    awec wrote: »
    5. When foreign people move to Ireland for work where do you think the overwhelming majority of them move to? When these people have kids, where do you think they go to school?
    Irrelevant again for the exact same reason.
    awec wrote: »
    6. In the past number of years there has been a huge movement of jobs and people to Dublin from other parts of Ireland. When these people have kids, guess what province they'll be growing up in? Guess what academy they'll end up in.
    You're basically repeating yourself here and it still hasn't become relevant.
    awec wrote: »
    People like to blow the Leinster academy horn quite a lot on here and they do deserve a lot of credit, but they have massive advantages over the other provinces that are not through any work of their own, but rather just basic societal and political reasons.

    The problem is going to get worse, not better. I don't want to see the provinces watered down, but I think long term the current model is unsustainable, or at least unsustainable if you want to have 3 / 4 provinces that are actually competitive in elite rugby.

    Great. You've gone off on a wild rant here without reading what I said. If everyone in Dublin is actually playing football, red herrings like immigration to Dublin and the number of schools becomes completely and entirely irrelevant. There are huge swathes of the country where rugby is never even considered, meanwhile places like Limerick would be far more of a rugby city than Dublin is.

    Which is why I said it would be interesting to see a breakdown of actual playing numbers... because the 50 or so rugby clubs in Ulster didn't just appear up overnight with no players or out of a lack of interest in the game!

    I'm fairly sure Leinster's playing population would be bigger than the others. But I just asked if there's any actual evidence for it rather than people throwing these sorts of phrases around based on no actual solid facts.


  • #33
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.

    So... like Leinster?


  • #34
    Joe Bewildered Wool
    Posts: 0 ✭ Joe Bewildered Wool


    awec wrote: »
    Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.

    Again I would imagine that isn't too different from Leinster. Every school in Leinster isn't a rugby school.


  • #35
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,066 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    Haha, noone is. Certainly Leinster, Munster and Ulster are all miles ahead of Connacht while all being fairly similarly supported.


    This is actual nonsense, there are other professional sports in Dublin. It's almost as good a description of Ulster as it is of Leinster.


    And if 99% of them played soccer Leinster rugby would be atrocious. You're throwing facts here that we already know without stopping to ask yourself if maybe a bit of context might help you to understand the question I've asked.


    Not sure of the relevance of that either without some evidence of rugby participation rather than assumptions.


    This is also entirely irrelevant if people moving to Leinster subsequently take up GAA or soccer.


    Irrelevant again for the exact same reason.


    You're basically repeating yourself here and it still hasn't become relevant.



    Great. You've gone off on a wild rant here without reading what I said. If everyone in Dublin is actually playing football, red herrings like immigration to Dublin and the number of schools becomes completely and entirely irrelevant. There are huge swathes of the country where rugby is never even considered, meanwhile places like Limerick would be far more of a rugby city than Dublin is.

    Which is why I said it would be interesting to see a breakdown of actual playing numbers... because the 50 or so rugby clubs in Ulster didn't just appear up overnight with no players or out of a lack of interest in the game!

    I'm fairly sure Leinster's playing population would be bigger than the others. But I just asked if there's any actual evidence for it rather than people throwing these sorts of phrases around based on no actual solid facts.
    You are just being dismissive now for no reason to be honest.

    "Ah but sure they could play soccer instead", as if this is some sort of unique problem to Leinster that mitigates these advantages or something.

    I'd love to know how migration into Leinster is a red herring. Explain that one please, I can't wait to know how more and more people moving there and increasing the potential player base is not at all advantageous for Leinster Rugby.


  • #36
    Peregrine
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 26,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Peregrine


    awec wrote: »
    Of which 50% have absolutely zero exposure to rugby in any form during school age.

    Yeah, same as Leinster so. Half of Dublin kids have probably never picked up a ball that isn't round.


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  • #37
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    Comparing populations on this is absolute nonsense. The vast majority (95%) of the populations of both provinces haven't enough rugby exposure as children to make it. A big population helps you find the Furlongs, O'Briens and Adam Byrnes - but they're outliers.

    The major contributor is actually the amount of nursery schools we have, and how good a job they are doing. Sure if St Michaels was in Belfast not Dublin the Ulster academy would be the envy of Ireland.


  • #38
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    Leinster have better players in greater numbers because of the schools system. For every Tadhg Furlong coming out of Gorey CBS, there's five guys coming out of Michaels and Blackrock. The other provinces are never going to be able to compete with that.


  • #39
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    awec wrote: »
    Lets stop pretending that the provinces are all starting off on an equal footing to start with.

    1. Is there any rugby club in the world that exists in the capital city of a country, with 1million+ people in it's catchment area, that doesn't have a single other professional sports club to compete with never mind another rugby club?

    2. The majority of the population of Ireland live in Leinster

    3. Leinster has more schools than any other province.

    4. The movement of people from other provinces to Dublin further makes things interesting for Leinster. If you looked at all the Leinster players it would be curious to know what percentage of them have Leinster-born parents. I bet this is a lot lower than the other provinces.

    5. When foreign people move to Ireland for work where do you think the overwhelming majority of them move to? When these people have kids, where do you think they go to school?

    6. In the past number of years there has been a huge movement of jobs and people to Dublin from other parts of Ireland. When these people have kids, guess what province they'll be growing up in? Guess what academy they'll end up in.

    People like to blow the Leinster academy horn quite a lot on here and they do deserve a lot of credit, but they have massive advantages over the other provinces that are not through any work of their own, but rather just basic societal and political reasons.

    The problem is going to get worse, not better. I don't want to see the provinces watered down, but I think long term the current model is unsustainable, or at least unsustainable if you want to have 3 / 4 provinces that are actually competitive in elite rugby.


    All valid points.

    One big reason Leinster are stronger is the strength of the schools game. Lads come out ready for the pro game. The academy is essentially sub-funded to the tune of millions by the schools. Granted a lot of this budget goes to cover all children playing at various levels but they also ensure good strength and conditioning/video analysis/high level coaching.
    More private schools in leinster (only 50 in the whole country) means more high calibre players. It isn't just from Michaels/Rock/Clongowes if there is a talent in Andrews/Wesley/Castleknock etc they are coached to a level to make the jump.

    How many private schools in Munster? maybe 6? how many in Ulster?

    Before people start saying i';m not giving the club game any credit- i recognise the contributions of Furlong/SOB etc in leinster but all the provinces have there club game contribution- Looking for key differences the strength of the schools game is an obvious 1


  • #40
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    awec wrote: »
    You are just being dismissive now for no reason to be honest.

    "Ah but sure they could play soccer instead", as if this is some sort of unique problem to Leinster that mitigates these advantages or something.

    No. I'm saying the exact opposite of that. I'm saying it's a problem that Leinster have alongside everyone else. In a city that is dominated by GAA and soccer.

    And so the question is, rather than look at the provinces populations, why not look at their playing populations.

    As I said, Kerry football's dominance blows a hole in your theory completely, numbers of clubs and players is very important.


  • #41
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,066 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    To put it another way, if you moved Ulster Rugby to Dublin and Leinster Rugby to Belfast does anyone believe that Leinster would ever churn out what they do today up there?

    Would Ulster ever go from having a surplus of talent to a dearth of it?

    Of course not. The idea is daft.


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  • #42
    The Lost Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,967 ✭✭✭✭The Lost Sheep


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Comparing populations on this is absolute nonsense. The vast majority (95%) of the populations of both provinces haven't enough rugby exposure as children to make it. A big population helps you find the Furlongs, O'Briens and Adam Byrnes - but they're outliers.

    The major contributor is actually the amount of nursery schools we have, and how good a job they are doing. Sure if St Michaels was in Belfast not Dublin the Ulster academy would be the envy of Ireland.
    They are outliers and while the schools are doing a good job. The top ones are all fee paying and therefore out of range of a huge proportion of the population and in dublin because of the schools there is little rugby available if you cant attend one of those schools so a lot of kids who could be interested in rugby lose out.
    Former Former wrote: »
    Leinster have better players in greater numbers because of the schools system. For every Tadhg Furlong coming out of Gorey CBS, there's five guys coming out of Andrews and Blackrock. The other provinces are never going to be able to compete with that.
    Yes the other provinces never will compete with that and shouldnt be trying to replicate the Leinster set up as its just not going to happen


  • #43
    dub_skav
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,530 ✭✭✭dub_skav


    I can see the setup to the gag, but I'm wondering how awec is going to work in the punchline of population density and socio-economic migration being all Nucifora's fault


  • #44
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    All valid points.

    One big reason Leinster are stronger is the strength of the schools game. Lads come out ready for the pro game. The academy is essentially sub-funded to the tune of millions by the schools. Granted a lot of this budget goes to cover all children playing at various levels but they also ensure good strength and conditioning/video analysis/high level coaching.
    More private schools in leinster (only 50 in the whole country) means more high calibre players. It isn't just from Michaels/Rock/Clongowes if there is a talent in Andrews/Wesley/Castleknock etc they are coached to a level to make the jump.

    How many private schools in Munster? maybe 6? how many in Ulster?

    Before people start saying i';m not giving the club game any credit- i recognise the contributions of Furlong/SOB etc in leinster but all the provinces have there club game contribution- Looking for key differences the strength of the schools game is an obvious 1

    This is a very good point. The private school system is a huge crutch, but there are a good few up north as well to be fair to them.

    A good reason though for the provinces to help their clubs get to that standard as much as they can. At least outside of Leinster who may want to continue leaning on the schools' game as much as they can.


  • #45
    Joe Bewildered Wool
    Posts: 0 ✭ Joe Bewildered Wool


    awec wrote: »
    I'd love to know how migration into Leinster is a red herring. Explain that one please, I can't wait to know how more and more people moving there and increasing the potential player base is not at all advantageous for Leinster Rugby.

    There is a very small sweet-spot you have to hit if you want to be a pro rugby player, you have to be really good in 6th year of school basically. Of course there are exceptions but if you hit your early 20s and you haven't made it into a professional setup then you basically aren't going to. If people move to Dublin for their career say, post-college, they aren't really increasing the feasible population of people that can play for Leinster.


  • #46
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,066 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    dub_skav wrote: »
    I can see the setup to the gag, but I'm wondering how awec is going to work in the punchline of population density and socio-economic migration being all Nucifora's fault

    Nah it's not, it's nobodies fault, it's just the reality of life on this island. Well, I guess we can blame Bertie a bit.

    Leinster do well to actually take advantage of their advantages, they certainly cannot be criticised. I'm just pointing out that I think the gap that exists today is only going to get wider.


  • #47
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    This is a very good point. The private school system is a huge crutch, but there are a good few up north as well to be fair to them.

    A good reason though for the provinces to help their clubs get to that standard as much as they can. At least outside of Leinster who may want to continue leaning on the schools' game as much as they can.

    Leinster to be fair hire loads of RDO's and community development officers. I would think there are more in Leinster than in Connacht(granted a bigger population but Leinster looking to tap into that population) The game is growing in Louth/Dundalk etc. But it takes time.

    I think the province will naturally be bolstered by the schools game but it is doing a lot to promote the game outside non-traditional rugby areas.


  • #48
    dregin
    Moderators, Music Moderators Posts: 6,525 Mod ✭✭✭✭dregin


    The ultimate solution here is obviously improving the rail network to allow people commute from across the island more easily. My loves of trains and rugby have finally been united. HURRAH!


  • #49
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    errlloyd wrote: »
    Comparing populations on this is absolute nonsense. The vast majority (95%) of the populations of both provinces haven't enough rugby exposure as children to make it. A big population helps you find the Furlongs, O'Briens and Adam Byrnes - but they're outliers.
    Yes. It's an absolute red herring. Very useful excuse though if you can get people to believe it.
    errlloyd wrote: »
    The major contributor is actually the amount of nursery schools we have, and how good a job they are doing. Sure if St Michaels was in Belfast not Dublin the Ulster academy would be the envy of Ireland.

    The schools are supported as well, lets not forget. They don't operate in a vacuum. We, at a 2nd-tier school, had Leinster coaches, particularly S&C, in regularly enough in 5th/6th year when I was in school, and that was a long time ago now. Players as well. When one of our coaches departed short notice to take a professional job we had help from them getting a replacement as well.

    Much more so than the following year for me when I was at a Junior club, although that is better now.


  • #50
    irishfan9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭irishfan9


    The growth of St. Michaels into a professional rugby gold mine certainly has helped massively... their SCT team this year probably has 7-8 future academy players in it.


  • #51
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    Leinster to be fair hire loads of RDO's and community development officers. I would think there are more in Leinster than in Connacht(granted a bigger population but Leinster looking to tap into that population) The game is growing in Louth/Dundalk etc. But it takes time.

    I think the province will naturally be bolstered by the schools game but it is doing a lot to promote the game outside non-traditional rugby areas.

    I'm very aware of this as a non-Dublin Leinster man myself. I'm personally very keen to see the focus shifted away from schools because I think its a little unfair that not everyone gets the same opportunity to play at that level. The dream for me would be an open competition with clubs v. schools but I'm sure there's great reasons it can't happen!


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  • #52
    Joe Bewildered Wool
    Posts: 0 ✭ Joe Bewildered Wool


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The schools are supported as well, lets not forget. They don't operate in a vacuum. We, at a 2nd-tier school, had Leinster coaches, particularly S&C, in regularly enough in 5th/6th year when I was in school, and that was a long time ago now. Players as well. When one of our coaches departed short notice to take a professional job we had help from them getting a replacement as well.

    Much more so than the following year for me when I was at a Junior club, although that is better now.

    I went to a Vinnie Murray level school and not to have a go at the teachers who gave up their time but our level of coaching was awful. We had an outside coach for a while but he was a bit of a dinosaur, every training session started with 10 laps of a pitch. S&C was basically non-existent.

    I don't think we had anyone who could have been an elite talent but they wouldn't have made it anyway with the way we went.


  • #53
    Rigor Mortis
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,914 ✭✭✭Rigor Mortis


    irishfan9 wrote: »
    Leinster have to compete with Dublin GAA in Dublin and they are probably losing.

    Leinster also have to compete with schoolboy football. If we are talking about player development and not crowds at games, football is a huge rival. Just because there isn't a very strong domestic league, doesn't meant that Rugby is suddenly powering ahead. The truth remains, Rugby is third most popular sport at best and probably fourth if you add in hurling.

    That said, many of the arguments made above are perfectly fair. Leinster have an advantage. They will probably always have first pick from the largest player pool. Encouraging transfers and spending on developing coaches, schools and clubs in all the regions is the best solution.


  • #54
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,066 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »
    There is a very small sweet-spot you have to hit if you want to be a pro rugby player, you have to be really good in 6th year of school basically. Of course there are exceptions but if you hit your early 20s and you haven't made it into a professional setup then you basically aren't going to. If people move to Dublin for their career say, post-college, they aren't really increasing the feasible population of people that can play for Leinster.

    I am not talking about people moving here when they are in their mid-teens, I am talking about people's parents moving here with young kids or maybe even no kids who settle here and subsequently have kids.


  • #55
    irishfan9
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,585 ✭✭✭irishfan9


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'm very aware of this as a non-Dublin Leinster man myself. I'm personally very keen to see the focus shifted away from schools because I think its a little unfair that not everyone gets the same opportunity to play at that level. The dream for me would be an open competition with clubs v. schools but I'm sure there's great reasons it can't happen!

    the clubs would get embarrassed in the main..


  • #56
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    Brynn Shy Washbowl wrote: »
    I went to a Vinnie Murray level school and not to have a go at the teachers who gave up their time but our level of coaching was awful. We had an outside coach for a while but he was a bit of a dinosaur, every training session started with 10 laps of a pitch. S&C was basically non-existent.

    Yes, the coach before ours was a teacher and he was atrocious. He quite famously advised Leinster Schools against selecting a lad who went on to be an international. But they ended up changing things and bringing in actual professional coaches for the SCT and then JCT teams, we were one of the first years to get that.


  • #57
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    I'm very aware of this as a non-Dublin Leinster man myself. I'm personally very keen to see the focus shifted away from schools because I think its a little unfair that not everyone gets the same opportunity to play at that level. The dream for me would be an open competition with clubs v. schools but I'm sure there's great reasons it can't happen!

    The leinster regional sides would play the schools from time to time. Leinster North-east would play a school or whatever. They attempted it on a wider scale and was pretty 1 sided. Good club players are monitored through those sides. The problem is some of them still feel they have to move to a big school to get a chance. The rock side with Jaeger/Carbery/Oliver was pretty blatant and unfortunate they feel they needed that exposure. That for me comes down to academy managers lacking ability to see past the extras provided to the potential. (i'm not a girvan dempsey fan!)


  • #58
    errlloyd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,633 ✭✭✭✭errlloyd


    irishbucsfan wrote: »
    The schools are supported as well, lets not forget. They don't operate in a vacuum. We, at a 2nd-tier school, had Leinster coaches, particularly S&C, in regularly enough in 5th/6th year when I was in school, and that was a long time ago now.

    Yeah, I completely agree. As you said earlier some of it is school resources, I was in St Andrews when they started building the program that eventually produced Porter, Larmour and Jones. I think I was in 5th year when they put in the weights room. I remember being the first year who got given a diet plan (I was 14 and playing at a terrible level so I was disgusted at being told I was on low fat jam).

    I don't think a state school could have made that transition. We had a headmaster who had resources and wanted us to be better at rugby. He made a big deal out of it. At the same time they got some help. One of my best mates is a senior coach at a similar school to St Andrews. Another school that produces a provincial player once every 5 years or so, and had a decent cup run a few years ago. He had an all day coaching workshop with Stuart Lancaster recently. Apart from behind helpful, it also sounded genuinely inspiring and motivating. Makes him throw more into his job. That stuff helps too.


  • #59
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 55,066 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    IBF, if population and potential player base, as well as the economic / job factors are all irrelevant, why do you think the Leinster academy is miles ahead of all the others?


  • #60
    irishbucsfan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 37,978 ✭✭✭✭irishbucsfan


    FrannoFan wrote: »
    The leinster regional sides would play the schools from time to time. Leinster North-east would play a school or whatever. They attempted it on a wider scale and was pretty 1 sided. Good club players are monitored through those sides. The problem is some of them still feel they have to move to a big school to get a chance. The rock side with Jaeger/Carbery/Oliver was pretty blatant and unfortunate they feel they needed that exposure. That for me comes down to academy managers lacking ability to see past the extras provided to the potential. (i'm not a girvan dempsey fan!)

    Yeah but even at that level there's guys with huge ability missed and guys with huge potential missed because there's a lot of clubs and they don't share information particularly well in my experience. I haven't worked with an underage side for a few years now though so maybe it's better.


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  • #61
    FrannoFan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,478 ✭✭✭FrannoFan


    awec wrote: »
    I am not talking about people moving here when they are in their mid-teens, I am talking about people's parents moving here with young kids or maybe even no kids who settle here and subsequently have kids.

    If it was just about population surely Ulster would be second behind Leinster?


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