Costs of Irish unification.

oscarBravo · 08-01-2018 01:17PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would customs operate from Donegal to Louth in a UI?

For the same reason they operate in Offaly and Clare.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:29PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

For the same reason they operate in Offaly and Clare.

That is normal operation of any customs service.

Where at the moment are the majority customs resources based? At our borders or in Offaly and Clare?

*I am not sure what the desperation to disprove that operating a border costs money is about tbh.

oscarBravo · 08-01-2018 01:43PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Where at the moment are the majority customs resources based? At our borders or in Offaly and Clare?

Ports and airports, to the best of my knowledge. If you have information that there are swarms of customs officers manning the non-existent customs posts along the border - I certainly haven't seen any at Blacklion in the past several years - feel free to share it.

Vexorg · 08-01-2018 01:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't ever say it costs vast amounts at the moment. If you took it to mean that, well consider the post clarified.

It stands to reason if you have customs officers stationed in border towns, offices, vehicles and procedures to operate that it has a cost.
Which was the point. The amount is immaterial and I wouldn't know where to look for it.
If you wish to pretend it is nothing, fair enough.

Where did I say it was nothing or pretend it is nothing? This is both a deflection and lie?

You said it was vast and I have asked you to clarify. Trying to deny that you did not say the current cost is vast is simply not the truth. It is there in Black and White.

James Brown · 08-01-2018 01:47PM

blanch152 wrote: »

That map is of a province of the United Kingdom, it is not a map of Ireland.

But it says 'Ireland' right there?

Where does Ulster belong, country wise? England, Scotland, Wales?

It's a silly point to labour over so. Ulster is/was a part of Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:50PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Ports and airports, to the best of my knowledge. If you have information that there are swarms of customs officers manning the non-existent customs posts along the border - I certainly haven't seen any at Blacklion in the past several years - feel free to share it.

Here we go again.

At no point did I say that 'swarms of customs officers were manning non existent customs posts' ever.

Please refer to what I actually did say. The desperation is strong on this point, which was just that maintaining a border has a cost and did cost a lot of money in more unstable times.
'Unstable' times which could very easily return. i.e. the ramifications of Brexit, which managed to get most of the leadership of Europe fairly exercised and worried, but not our resident anti-UI posters it seems.

James Brown · 08-01-2018 01:53PM

blanch152 wrote: »

There is nothing natural about nation-states. They are one of the most unnatural creations in human history.

True dat, (like currently occupied Northern Ireland)
Countries however are recognised for what they are, geographically and historically despite which foreign powers may come and go. East Germany was part of the Soviet Union, but during 'reunification' it became whole again, back to it's natural state. Is it just the word 'natural' upsetting folk? We can go with historical or geographic. It's in the name. 'Northern' means 'north' 'north of', an area, the northern part of. 'Ireland', a country. Put them together, the northern part of Ireland.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:58PM

Vexorg wrote: »

Where did I say it was nothing or pretend it is nothing? This is both a deflection and lie?

Apologies, you didn't say it cost nothing.

You said it was vast and I have asked you to clarify. Trying to deny that you did not say the current cost is vast is simply not the truth. It is there in Black and White.

I said it 'did' cost vast sums in the past. That remains a vast sum in total in the present

I didn't say the present cost is 'vast' at any time.

Not sure what your issue is tbh.

oscarBravo · 08-01-2018 02:15PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

True dat, (like currently occupied Northern Ireland)

A country can't occupy itself. Seriously, this isn't quantum mechanics. It can't be that hard to grasp.

Is it just the word 'natural' upsetting folk? We can go with historical or geographic.

I've addressed the fallacies of all three words. Repeating a fallacy doesn't make it stop being a fallacy.

It's in the name. 'Northern' means 'north' 'north of', an area, the northern part of. 'Ireland', a country. Put them together, the northern part of Ireland.

Here's a name for you: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Northern Ireland isn't occupied. If you refuse to acknowledge simple facts, it's really hard to have a rational conversation.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 02:17PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

True dat, (like currently occupied Northern Ireland)
Countries however are recognised for what they are, geographically and historically despite which foreign powers may come and go. East Germany was part of the Soviet Union, but during 'reunification' it became whole again, back to it's natural state. Is it just the word 'natural' upsetting folk? We can go with historical or geographic. It's in the name. 'Northern' means 'north' 'north of', an area, the northern part of. 'Ireland', a country. Put them together, the northern part of Ireland.

East Germany was never part of the Soviet union. It was occupied by the Soviets as West Germany was occupied by the 3 other allied forces of occupation.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 02:22PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

A country can't occupy itself. Seriously, this isn't quantum mechanics. It can't be that hard to grasp. I've addressed the fallacies of all three words. Repeating a fallacy doesn't make it stop being a fallacy. Here's a name for you: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Northern Ireland isn't occupied. If you refuse to acknowledge simple facts, it's really hard to have a rational conversation.

Yip and it's not like there isn't a list of divided islands around the world that seem to manage...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 02:32PM

murphaph wrote: »

Yip and it's not like there isn't a list of divided islands around the world that seem to manage...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands

Northern Ireland is patently not 'managing' though.

Chips Lovell · 08-01-2018 02:39PM

Germany is a classic case in point of how political borders are artificial. What is the "natural" state of Germany?

It didn't exist as a country until 1871. It's borders changed in 1918, in 1938 and again in 1945, when the current border was reached by combining the old West and East German states.

Which, if any incarnation of Germany, was its "natural" state?

blanch152 · 08-01-2018 02:44PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

But it says 'Ireland' right there?

Where does Ulster belong, country wise? England, Scotland, Wales?

It's a silly point to labour over so. Ulster is/was a part of Ireland.

And I can show you a map today of Ireland which doesn't have a border on it.

The fact is that the map you showed was dated 1817, which was a time when Ireland was a province of the UK.

blanch152 · 08-01-2018 02:46PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Northern Ireland is patently not 'managing' though.

Yes, but the easy way out is to blame something that happened 100 years ago for the failure of politicians on both sides today. As I have repeatedly pointed out, the supposedly intractable problems of today - same sex marriage and the languages act - didn't exist as problems in the 1970s as nobody was looking for same-sex marital rights and there were no native speakers of either language.

It is bemusing to see partition being blamed for those problems.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 02:52PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Yes, but the easy way out is to blame something that happened 100 years ago for the failure of politicians on both sides today. As I have repeatedly pointed out, the supposedly intractable problems of today - same sex marriage and the languages act - didn't exist as problems in the 1970s as nobody was looking for same-sex marital rights and there were no native speakers of either language.

It is bemusing to see partition being blamed for those problems.

Yes, I know you made that point -that partition was a one off event and had no lasting effects into the future or words to that effect.

Partition caused the formation of a bigoted sectarian state that ruled for decades. It caused the entrenchment of community which we still see today.

If it didn't, please tell us what did cause it? A trait inherent in Nordies? I am all ears for your analysis.

Red_Wake · 08-01-2018 02:58PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

Yip and it's not like there isn't a list of divided islands around the world that seem to manage...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands

Northern Ireland is patently not 'managing' though.

Northern has had power devolved to it's local politicians for 20 years now. It's continued failure as a state can be easily laid at their feet.

blanch152 · 08-01-2018 03:01PM

murphaph wrote: »

Yip and it's not like there isn't a list of divided islands around the world that seem to manage...

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_divided_islands

Very interesting.

I see a reference in that page to

"Between the United Kingdom and Ireland:
Pollatawny in Lough Vearty.[71]"

Google Maps can't find it.

Neither can I find a reference to it outside of Wikipedia.

Does anyone have some information on that island?

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 03:02PM

Red_Wake wrote: »

Northern has had power devolved to it's local politicians for 20 years now. It's continued failure as a state can be easily laid at their feet.

A lot of us would say that the biggest strides forward in northern Ireland were made over the last 20 years.
But we are back at crisis point again with no executive and no prospect of one. Why? Because of entrenchment. You can blame who you like for that. But the cause of it is as clear as day.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 03:05PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Very interesting.

I see a reference in that page to

"Between the United Kingdom and Ireland:
Pollatawny in Lough Vearty.[71]"

Google Maps can't find it.

Neither can I find a reference to it outside of Wikipedia.

Does anyone have some information on that island?

Both in Donegal.
https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lough+Vearty/@54.5411907,-8.0158266,15.37z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x485fab3fff62e6d3:0x365b441b9c907d9b!8m2!3d54.541457!4d-8.0098184

http://www.geograph.ie/photo/884149

blanch152 · 08-01-2018 03:05PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes, I know you made that point -that partition was a one off event and had no lasting effects into the future or words to that effect.

Partition caused the formation of a bigoted sectarian state that ruled for decades. It caused the entrenchment of community which we still see today.

If it didn't, please tell us what did cause it? A trait inherent in Nordies? I am all ears for your analysis.

I never said it had no lasting effects, but like any event, the effects diminish over time. It is more recent events that have greater effects.

The bigoted sectarian state that you reference is gone a couple of generations ago and it is more recent events are of more importance.

blanch152 · 08-01-2018 03:06PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Both in Donegal.
https://www.google.ie/maps/place/Lough+Vearty/@54.5411907,-8.0158266,15.37z/data=!4m5!3m4!1s0x485fab3fff62e6d3:0x365b441b9c907d9b!8m2!3d54.541457!4d-8.0098184

http://www.geograph.ie/photo/884149

That is the lake, and presumably the island is the one with the border down the middle, but is anything else known about it?

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 03:10PM

blanch152 wrote: »

That is the lake, and presumably the island is the one with the border down the middle, but is anything else known about it?

Like what?

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 03:10PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I never said it had no lasting effects, but like any event, the effects diminish over time. It is more recent events that have greater effects.

The bigoted sectarian state that you reference is gone a couple of generations ago and it is more recent events are of more importance.

The 'state' may be gone but the mindset certainly isn't, hence the current problem.

Charles Babbage · 08-01-2018 03:14PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

A country can't occupy itself. Seriously, this isn't quantum mechanics. It can't be that hard to grasp. I've addressed the fallacies of all three words. Repeating a fallacy doesn't make it stop being a fallacy. Here's a name for you: "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

Northern Ireland isn't occupied. If you refuse to acknowledge simple facts, it's really hard to have a rational conversation.

On what date did it cease to be occupied?

James Brown · 08-01-2018 03:16PM

murphaph wrote: »

East Germany was never part of the Soviet union. It was occupied by the Soviets as West Germany was occupied by the 3 other allied forces of occupation.

So Brussels held sway over the governing of East Germany?
Anyway, the point is East Germany was and is naturally part of Germany.
Furthermore, we take policy from Brussels, but that does not make the Republic any less a part of Ireland.

blanch152 wrote: »

And I can show you a map today of Ireland which doesn't have a border on it.

The fact is that the map you showed was dated 1817, which was a time when Ireland was a province of the UK.

Can't be, it shows Ulster right? How can it show Ireland and include Ulster, unless of course Ulster is part and parcel of Ireland?

Ireland includes Ulster. Ulster is naturally a part of Ireland. This cannot be disputed. We can go back to the numerous Celtic fiefdoms if you like, it still stands.

oscarBravo · 08-01-2018 03:23PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

On what date did it cease to be occupied?

Just so we're clear: are you asking because it is your considered belief that Northern Ireland is currently occupied by the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland?

ancapailldorcha · 08-01-2018 03:27PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

On what date did it cease to be occupied?

3 May 1921.

blanch152 · 08-01-2018 04:41PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Can't be, it shows Ulster right? How can it show Ireland and include Ulster, unless of course Ulster is part and parcel of Ireland?

Ireland includes Ulster. Ulster is naturally a part of Ireland. This cannot be disputed. We can go back to the numerous Celtic fiefdoms if you like, it still stands.

Natural is not an unambiguous term. Is it based on geographical, historical or political realities?

You can argue that Ulster is a naturally separate independent kingdom going back to the time of the Kings of Ulster. Your map would back up this natural position [Historically].

You can also argue that Ireland is naturally part of the UK because we spent centuries either under the rule of the English King or as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland which encompassed the natural archipelago of the British Isles (Britain, Ireland, Channel Islands, Hebrides, Isle of Man etc.) and English is the dominant cultural language across the archipelago. [Historically, Geographically, Politically and Cultural].

You can also argue that Ireland is naturally part of Europe through geography and its membership of the European Union [Geographically and Politically]

All of those arguments are valid. Which one you pick depends on your perspective. There is nothing inherently natural about any political arrangement. To a 800 A.D. peasant, the idea that there would be political union on the island would have been deemed logistically impossible.

Schumi7 · 08-01-2018 04:41PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

Isn't it also fair to take cognisance of the very real effect that a vote for unification would have on British people in Northern Ireland?

Firstly, thank you for your reply. It can't help but escape my attention however that you are the only poster among the resident, shall we say, UI sceptics on the thread to at least reference the paramount point I made in my original post. I find the lack of interaction with it from other said posters to be at the very least suggestive.

Before I answer your query directly I'll preface it by saying that I would expect primary consideration to go to your fellow countrymen/women and citizens in the North/NI for obvious reasons together with what I outlined previously. As for the effect of unity on the British people in Northern Ireland, of course it is fair to take cognisance of it. That goes without saying. In the event I would expect this new nation to be more than accommodating and generous to them.

A united Ireland is not about victory over unionists.

oscarBravo wrote: »

If and when the time comes for a vote in Northern Ireland, will you be taking cognisance of the very real effect that a vote for unification would have on the Republic?

If you mean potential tax rises then yes.

oscarBravo wrote: »

I don't yet know which way I'd vote when the time comes, but my vote will be informed by many factors, including the ramifications of importing "an armed truce between two factions that had fought themselves (and much of Northern Ireland) to a standstill" into my country.

It was in my country too, but I'll resist the urge to be 'pedantic' over your use of the words 'importation' and 'my country'.

oscarBravo wrote: »

If you want my vote, it would help to demonstrate an ability to move beyond that state of affairs. And if, like so many of your fellow-travellers on this thread, all you can do is blame it on "themmuns", you won't be helping.

I don't know if you intended to be patronising as I have already detailed my voting history, but I will point out the GFA was signed 20 years ago this year. Whilst the 'constitutional' politics remains and always will, the conflict between the two factions is long over.

What I would like you to do is to take into account the issue I outlined in my original post. It should be of paramount importance in my view for obvious reasons. If that doesn't register then it should at the very least be a primary concern.

I'll finish by saying that I will not beg you or others to vote Yes in a referendum. I am not for kowtowing as I am not a lesser Irish person nor a second class Irish citizen. In the unlikely event that a No vote in the South prevails, I would feel compelled to leave Ireland as my country would then be lost to me.

Costs of Irish unification.

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