Costs of Irish unification.

Red_Wake · 08-01-2018 10:36AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

murphaph wrote: »

All small (tiny) amounts relative to the national budget. But you keep going on about them as if they were vast sums and at the same time handwave away any concerns about the known multi billion pound subsidy that NI currently relies on as "scaremongering".

I am talking about money that HAS been spent. I love the way you always want to downplay this stuff. As if money and people don't matter because of the amount and the distance away from the problem. 'I'm alright jack' politics never washed with me.

People talking about amounts of money they are plucking out of the air can be identified as scaremongering.

So you're comparing the [potential] aggregate saving on [presumably whole island] customs costs over the near hundred years of partition?

Any estimate of this saving? Without some solid figures it seems a ludicrous line of thinking.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 10:37AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

Is this figure not a result of a formula though (IIRC?)....which gives a proportion based on what England receives in government spending? ?

.which is flawed by nature by failing to take into account geographical positioning etc on the ground
(Hence why ni has exceptionally good roads as they have to spend it somewhere?)

Edit AFAIK this formula may have been drawn up when UK was being run by the imf in the 70s and not updated since...but don't quote me on that :O

Erm. The north's roads are not exceptionally good, despite all the money.

But are you simply suggesting that in a UI the money spent in the 6 counties would be slashed? If so, please make sure the NI electorate is aware of the cunning plan that simply reduces their living standards to make a UI work!

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 10:39AM

Red_Wake wrote: »

So you're comparing the [potential] aggregate saving on [presumably whole island] customs costs over the near hundred years of partition?

Any estimate of this saving? Without some solid figures it seems a ludicrous line of thinking.

The point was made that the border/partition has not affected the people of Cork or Limerick etc (I am not sure where the 'affect' border begins and ends, you will need to ask Murphaph that)

I am saying that it does, because it has cost huge sums to secure during the conflict/war primarily and continues to cost in maintenance, customs and security.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 10:46AM

murphaph wrote: »

Erm. The north's roads are not exceptionally good, despite all the money.

But are you simply suggesting that in a UI the money spent in the 6 counties would be slashed? If so, please make sure the NI electorate is aware of the cunning plan that simply reduces their living standards to make a UI work!

We are paying 75 million towards one road in NI atm simply because it will benefit people going from Dublin to Donegal. As we all know, doing anything in this piecemeal fashion will cost extra. Better if the Dublin to Donegal route had no border in the way.

Vexorg · 08-01-2018 10:49AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

They are two separate sentences.

When the state has to come up with strategies to secure a border then it stands to reason that that costs money.
A border also creates a need for customs and excise monitoring and trade security of it's own.
The monitoring of animal movement also costs money.
Overlapping of services and the above also wastes money.

You are deflecting now. You said "It does and did. Because partition has cost this state vast sums of money." Then went on to infer that customs and security from donegal to louth represented this "vast" cost.

What is the cost?

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 10:55AM

Vexorg wrote: »

You are deflecting now. You said "It does and did. Because partition has cost this state vast sums of money." Then went on to infer that customs and security from donegal to louth represented this "vast" cost.

What is the cost?

I didn't ever say it costs vast amounts at the moment. If you took it to mean that, well consider the post clarified.

It stands to reason if you have customs officers stationed in border towns, offices, vehicles and procedures to operate that it has a cost.
Which was the point. The amount is immaterial and I wouldn't know where to look for it.
If you wish to pretend it is nothing, fair enough.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 10:56AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

We are paying 75 million towards one road in NI atm simply because it will benefit people going from Dublin to Donegal. As we all know, doing anything in this piecemeal fashion will cost extra. Better if the Dublin to Donegal route had no border in the way.

The A5 is a special case. We have decided to part fund it as it's a trunk route to Donegal. More deflection.

tomwaterford · 08-01-2018 10:57AM

murphaph wrote: »

But are you simply suggesting that in a UI the money spent in the 6 counties would be slashed? If so, please make sure the NI electorate is aware of the cunning plan that simply reduces their living standards to make a UI work!

I did not suggest this atal???

Attempting to put words in peoples mouths is a weird debating tactic??

But yes....rural and back roads in the north are of a way better standred than here.....any parts of it I've travelled and visited anyway...compared to down here

But Is it not correct to point to the subsidy is on an outdated formula based on a time when infrastructure and compensation to troubles payments were alot higher and perhaps the subsidy is vastly excessive??

Its like the councils doing all their roadworks etc towards end of year to use up the money,otherwise they'd get a reduced amount the following year?

murphaph · 08-01-2018 10:58AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

I didn't ever say it costs vast amounts at the moment. If you took it to mean that, well consider the post clarified.

It stands to reason if you have customs officers stationed in border towns, offices, vehicles and procedures to operate that it has a cost.
Which was the point. The amount is immaterial and I wouldn't know where to look for it.
If you wish to pretend it is nothing, fair enough.

So a small amount of money is used for a handful of customs offices along the border. That's all you wanted to say?

murphaph · 08-01-2018 11:00AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

I did not suggest this atal???

Attempting to put words in peoples mouths is a weird debating tactic??

But yes....rural and back roads in the north are of a way better standred than here.....any parts of it I've travelled and visited anyway...compared to down here

But Is it not correct to point to the subsidy is on an outdated formula based on a time when infrastructure and compensation to troubles payments were alot higher and perhaps the subsidy is vastly excessive??

Its like the councils doing all their roadworks etc towards end of year to use up the money,otherwise they'd get a reduced amount the following year?

Again you suggest the subsidy is excessive but flip out when I assume your suggestion is to reduce the subsidy?

Maybe you could say exactly what you mean for clarity.

jimmycrackcorm · 08-01-2018 11:00AM

murphaph wrote:

Erm. The north's roads are not exceptionally good, despite all the money.

Quite true. I remember three decades ago how bad the roads in the south were compared to the north. However in the intervening years, the southern roads have massively improved while those in the north haven't changed that much.

FrancieBrady wrote:

We are paying 75 million towards one road in NI atm simply because it will benefit people going from Dublin to Donegal. As we all know, doing anything in this piecemeal fashion will cost extra. Better if the Dublin to Donegal route had no border in the way.

It benefits the northwest including largely Derry. The border is irrelevant as the road needs improvement regardless so I don't quite get what the non piecemeal approach is. The A5 is shockingly bad. If you get stuck behind something slow then you can be up to an hour trying to overtake safely.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 11:03AM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Quite true. I remember three decades ago how bad the roads in the south were compared to the north. However in the intervening years, the southern roads have massively improved while those in the north haven't changed that much.

It benefits the northwest including largely Derry. The border is irrelevant as the road needs improvement regardless so I don't quite get what the non piecemeal approach is. The A5 is shockingly bad. If you get stuck behind something slow then you can be up to an hour trying to overtake safely.

Separate planning procedures, separate contracts, separate contractors and doubtless specifications.
All extra costs.

I have nothing against it by the way. But it is another example of a border complication.

tomwaterford · 08-01-2018 11:07AM

murphaph wrote: »

Again you suggest the subsidy is excessive but flip out when I assume your suggestion is to reduce the subsidy?

Maybe you could say exactly what you mean for clarity.

I didn't flip out...your attempt to inflame a debate by going personal and trying to represent someone else's feelings (wrongly in this case)....is an excessively poor debating style

As for your second part of post....I can't decipher it??....I mean what for clarity??

I assume your attempting to deflect from the fact the NI subsidy is based on England's spending and pointing at this figure for being high, is displaying a lack of knowledge of the fiscal policy of the uk?

Here's a funfact with brexit that figure is going to have to fall as more resources will have to directed to Wales to fit the formula......but somehow this will attempted to be twisted as sf implementing austrity in the 6 counties

murphaph · 08-01-2018 11:08AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Separate planning procedures, separate contracts, separate contractors and doubtless specifications.
All extra costs.

I have nothing against it by the way. But it is another example of a border complication.

Where's the complication? The road will be built by contractors under NIRS (or whatever it's called today) supervision and the Dublin government will make a block payment for the lot. The NRA won't be retraining engineers to UK specs. Again, you are wildly overstating the costs when it suits you but accuse anyone who relies on the current multi billion pound subsidy to NI of scaremongering. Quite unbelievable.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 11:09AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

I didn't flip out...your attempt to inflame a debate by going personal and trying to represent someone else's feelings (wrongly in this case)....is an excessively poor debating style

As for your second part of post....I can't decipher it??....I mean what for clarity??

I assume your attempting to deflect from the fact the NI subsidy is based on England's spending and pointing at this figure for being high, is displaying a lack of knowledge of the fiscal policy of the uk?

Here's a funfact with brexit that figure is going to have to fall as more resources will have to directed to Wales to fit the formula......but somehow this will attempted to be twisted as sf implementing austrity in the 6 counties

What was your initial point with respect to the subsidy, which you believe to be excessive?

tomwaterford · 08-01-2018 11:20AM

murphaph wrote: »

What was your initial point with respect to the subsidy, which you believe to be excessive?

And again....I did not say I believe it to be excessive??

I said perhaps it is excessive (see the difference??)

....and for one last time as I'm bored of saying same thing over and over and have no Internet crayons left

Is figure inevitably going to drop away as to fit formula and account for lack of eu money more funds will be required to divert to Wales (why Wales voted brexit il never know)??
How low it drops is another question but inevitably it will

I can't possibly make it much clearer

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 11:23AM

murphaph wrote: »

Where's the complication? The road will be built by contractors under NIRS (or whatever it's called today) supervision and the Dublin government will make a block payment for the lot. The NRA won't be retraining engineers to UK specs. Again, you are wildly overstating the costs when it suits you but accuse anyone who relies on the current multi billion pound subsidy to NI of scaremongering. Quite unbelievable.

Which is cheaper Murphaph? One set of planning to comply with, one contractor to deal with or multiples of the same?

Take your time. It is an extra cost and complication to deal with a border when building infrastructure.
How much of cost is moot, it is an extra cost/complicated process. Which is the point how ever much you try to downplay it.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 11:37AM

tomwaterford wrote: »

And again....I did not say I believe it to be excessive??

I said perhaps it is excessive (see the difference??)

I'm getting sick of these silly word games Tom.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 11:42AM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Which is cheaper Murphaph? One set of planning to comply with, one contractor to deal with or multiples of the same?

Take your time. It is an extra cost and complication to deal with a border when building infrastructure.
How much of cost is moot, it is an extra cost/complicated process. Which is the point how ever much you try to downplay it.

Sorry but I can't take you seriously when you say the level of cost is moot. It quite clearly isn't. My 5 year old understands that there's a difference between things that cost different amounts of money. Can't really debate the point further.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 11:47AM

murphaph wrote: »

Sorry but I can't take you seriously when you say the level of cost is moot. It quite clearly isn't. My 5 year old understands that there's a difference between things that cost different amounts of money. Can't really debate the point further.

Yes and if you happen to live near the border that doesn't matter either because you live further away.

We get the picture Muraphaph. But all these things add up...costs have a habit of doing that.
And there is always the prospect of things like Brexit suddenly increasing those costs or another outbreak of violence.

But sure it doesn't matter, you are in Cork or somewhere.

ancapailldorcha · 08-01-2018 12:00PM

If this thread is going to descend into pettiness and sniping then I'll have to lock it. Cut it out please.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 12:15PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes and if you happen to live near the border that doesn't matter either because you live further away.

We get the picture Muraphaph. But all these things add up...costs have a habit of doing that.
And there is always the prospect of things like Brexit suddenly increasing those costs or another outbreak of violence.

But sure it doesn't matter, you are in Cork or somewhere.

The costs are small and don't add up to a hill if beans. The undeniably massive cost of the current NI subsidy add up to a mountain.

I'm afraid you'll just have to accept that many of us do not agree with diverting precious resources from our health service, transport and education among others to the six new counties in a UI.

markodaly · 08-01-2018 12:40PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Yes there is, just because it is soft does not mean it doesn't exist.

There is no customs border between the North and the Republic. The onus is on you is to prove that one does exist. I think I will be waiting a while....

jm08 · 08-01-2018 12:52PM

There are big losses to both States because of the Border such as revenues associated with the different VAT rates and smuggling? How much / how many jobs were lost to the Irish State for Christmas Xmas shopping this year over the Border? There would have been millions of lost revenue for tourism and FDI during the Troubles as well, so I think its fair to say that the Border has cost both States a lot over the years.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 12:59PM

markodaly wrote: »

There is no customs border between the North and the Republic. The onus is on you is to prove that one does exist. I think I will be waiting a while....

Customs are still operating along the border and that costs money. This is getting silly so I won't be replying to it anymore. I have done more than enough to explain this, if you think that Customs are not operating here, come take a look.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 01:03PM

jm08 wrote: »

There are big losses to both States because of the Border such as revenues associated with the different VAT rates and smuggling? How much / how many jobs were lost to the Irish State for Christmas Xmas shopping this year over the Border? There would have been millions of lost revenue for tourism and FDI during the Troubles as well, so I think its fair to say that the Border has cost both States a lot over the years.

All vanishingly small in comparison to the NI block grant and crucially the big costs are in the past (all that running around after IRA men).

Nowadays (all that matters) the border costs the state very little. Sure, there's a bit of fuel smuggling by Slab and his fellow travellers (most of these guys have no qualms about defrauding the state the claim to love of its rightful revenue of course) but it's really small potatoes compared to the cost of running NI currently.

murphaph · 08-01-2018 01:05PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Customs are still operating along the border and that costs money. This is getting silly so I won't be replying to it anymore. I have done more than enough to explain this, if you think that Customs are not operating here, come take a look.

Like I said, they operate nationwide...

https://www.ncts.ie/vehicle-registration/vrtlocations/

...not just along the border!

markodaly · 08-01-2018 01:08PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Customs are still operating along the border and that costs money. This is getting silly so I won't be replying to it anymore. I have done more than enough to explain this, if you think that Customs are not operating here, come take a look.

No, customs do operate here which I state numerous time, just like they would under a UI.

You are the one who claimed that there was a customs border from Louth to Donegal, which was costing a substantial amount of money. If you do not want to be called up on making untrue statements, then don't make statements that are, well, untrue.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:09PM

murphaph wrote: »

Like I said, they operate nationwide...

https://www.ncts.ie/vehicle-registration/vrtlocations/

...not just along the border!

We know that.

They wouldn't have to operate from Donegal to Louth if there was no border.

There would be no threat of a hard border and social upheaval again if there was no border.

FrancieBrady · 08-01-2018 01:11PM

markodaly wrote: »

No, customs do operate here which I state numerous time, just like they would under a UI.

You are the one who claimed that there was a customs border from Louth to Donegal, which was costing a substantial amount of money. If you do not want to be called up on making untrue statements, then don't make statements that are, well, untrue.

Why would customs operate from Donegal to Louth in a UI?

Costs of Irish unification.

Comments