The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

eviltwin · 05-01-2018 02:16PM

Da Boss wrote: »

I believe it is wrong and unjust and u should be held accountable for what you done, and yes, be disciplined by the law. You say you had an abortion, without hardly any thought about the fact you ended the life of another! Do you feel no shame, no guilt? Have you and conscience or is it all me me me with no thought whatsoever about the implications on the unborn, denied their right to live due to your self centeredness

What kind of punishment would you suggest then? Life in prison? Maybe less for those who have regret, more for those who aren't ashamed.

I had an abortion too, I can think of at least twenty other Irish women who admit to having abortions. Are you going to lock us all up? And what about the partners, husbands, friends etc who came with us or minded kids for us or gave us the money....they were all aware, do they go to prison too?

You can shout as much as you like that abortion is murder, that we are 'baby' killers. You won't shame me though

Da Boss · 05-01-2018 02:22PM

baylah17 wrote: »

So you believe that a woman should be coerced against her will to carry an unwanted pregnancy to full term against her will and under pain of punishment?
You seem to have little regard or respect for the rights of women.

First of all , babies don’t just magically appear in the womb, they are created, women are aware of this. Therefore, unless women want a baby, they should play safe. Simple as that. Also, you say a woman shouldn’t be forced , they shouldn’t therefore that’s why they should practice safe sex. A baby in the womb shouldn’t be forced in death!! It’s not all about the mother, there’s two people at stake here. Yee desire “choice” , but that already exsistent, you have a choice whether or not you desire to become pregnant. If you decide to become pregnant, that’s your descion, you are not forced

Da Boss · 05-01-2018 02:25PM

eviltwin wrote: »

What kind of punishment would you suggest then? Life in prison? Maybe less for those who have regret, more for those who aren't ashamed.

I had an abortion too, I can think of at least twenty other Irish women who admit to having abortions. Are you going to lock us all up? And what about the partners, husbands, friends etc who came with us or minded kids for us or gave us the money....they were all aware, do they go to prison too?

You can shout as much as you like that abortion is murder, that we are 'baby' killers. You won't shame me though

I think that says all I need to know about you and your conscience (or lack of more like) . You have blood on your hands, you ended the life of another and you don’t seem to think of it twice, to me that’s scary, you show any compassion, or are you as it appears?- stone hearted

eviltwin · 05-01-2018 02:27PM

Da Boss wrote: »

I think that says all I need to know about you and your conscience (or lack of more like) . You have blood on your hands, you ended the life of another and you don’t seem to think of it twice, to me that’s scary, you show any compassion, or are you as it appears?- stone hearted

That's all so predictable. Can you answer the question now?

nice_guy80 · 05-01-2018 02:28PM

Da Boss wrote: »

First of all , babies don’t just magically appear in the womb, they are created, women are aware of this. Therefore, unless women want a baby, they should play safe. Simple as that. Also, you say a woman shouldn’t be forced , they shouldn’t therefore that’s why they should practice safe sex. A baby in the womb shouldn’t be forced in death!! It’s not all about the mother, there’s two people at stake here. Yee desire “choice” , but that already exsistent, you have a choice whether or not you desire to become pregnant. If you decide to become pregnant, that’s your descion, you are not forced

its not a baby until its born
until then its a foetus
in the first few weeks its a chemical embryo

people make mistakes. life is about choices and mistakes
they should have the choice to correct their mistakes (early in the pregnancy)
life is not black and white. there's a whole grey area in between

kylith · 05-01-2018 02:28PM

Da Boss wrote: »

First of all , babies don’t just magically appear in the womb, they are created, women are aware of this. Therefore, unless women want a baby, they should play safe. Simple as that. Also, you say a woman shouldn’t be forced , they shouldn’t therefore that’s why they should practice safe sex. A baby in the womb shouldn’t be forced in death!! It’s not all about the mother, there’s two people at stake here. Yee desire “choice” , but that already exsistent, you have a choice whether or not you desire to become pregnant. If you decide to become pregnant, that’s your descion, you are not forced

And if the contraceptive fails? What then? Should women be punished with a pregnancy they don't want because they had sex? What about women who are raped? Should they be forced to carry her rapists' child?

We have had women on this thread who would be left wheelchair bound if they went through another pregnancy. There are women who are refused medication that they need because it could harm a fetus. There are women made to carry foetuses that are dead or dying. There are womdn who have to give birth to children that they want who they know will die within hours of birth, in pain. That is what the 8th amendment does.

I find myself thinking that you're very young yet, and that you may not have experienced the bowel-loosening terror of the sudden pregnancy scare. Take a deep breath, step back, and think how you would feel if you discovered you were pregnant in the morning. All the things in your life you wouldn't be able to do. The impact it would have on your career and your future prospects.

....... · 05-01-2018 02:32PM

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ohnonotgmail · 05-01-2018 02:33PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

its like listening to somebody from SPUC or Youth Defence.

nice_guy80 · 05-01-2018 02:36PM

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

its like listening to somebody from SPUC or Youth Defence.

saw a Reeling in the Years from 1992 recently.

Youth Defence were front and centre of the Anti Abortion protests. They haven't gone away you know...

SusieBlue · 05-01-2018 02:48PM

Da Boss wrote: »

First of all , babies don’t just magically appear in the womb, they are created, women are aware of this. Therefore, unless women want a baby, they should play safe. Simple as that. Also, you say a woman shouldn’t be forced , they shouldn’t therefore that’s why they should practice safe sex. A baby in the womb shouldn’t be forced in death!! It’s not all about the mother, there’s two people at stake here. Yee desire “choice” , but that already exsistent, you have a choice whether or not you desire to become pregnant. If you decide to become pregnant, that’s your descion, you are not forced

All I’m seeing here is women, women, women. Women should know better, women should do this, women should do that.
Does the woman create the baby all by herself or am I missing something?

You actually sound like one of those men that hates women. You clearly have no respect for them. Your point of view is ignorant at best, and dangerous at worst.
You don’t have compassion. You haven’t even touched on any of the issues regarding the 8th and maternity care and consent, which shows you don’t have a clue. So clearly all you care about is ‘saving da baybeez’.
Or at least that’s what you seem to think.

I can’t wait for this referendum will be passed so people like you won’t have a platform for sharing your hateful views any more.

January · 05-01-2018 02:48PM

Da Boss wrote: »

I think that says all I need to know about you and your conscience (or lack of more like) . You have blood on your hands, you ended the life of another and you don’t seem to think of it twice, to me that’s scary, you show any compassion, or are you as it appears?- stone hearted

Yawn.

BTW I think of my abortion nearly every day (especially now coming up to the referendum), doesn't mean I regret it or am ashamed of it. I made the best decision for my family at the time it happened. Bringing another child into the world would have forced my already born children into a life of poverty. Why don't you care about children who are already born?

You're pro-birth, not pro-life.

January · 05-01-2018 02:50PM

Da Boss wrote: »

First of all , babies don’t just magically appear in the womb, they are created, women are aware of this. Therefore, unless women want a baby, they should play safe. Simple as that. Also, you say a woman shouldn’t be forced , they shouldn’t therefore that’s why they should practice safe sex. A baby in the womb shouldn’t be forced in death!! It’s not all about the mother, there’s two people at stake here. Yee desire “choice” , but that already exsistent, you have a choice whether or not you desire to become pregnant. If you decide to become pregnant, that’s your descion, you are not forced

Women do play safe, believe me, it's a constant worry day in and day out for us women who don't want (another) child. So, we should stop having sex altogether if we don't want to become pregnant?

....... · 05-01-2018 02:53PM

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Hotblack Desiato · 05-01-2018 03:17PM

Da Boss wrote: »

However let me tell you this, there is nothing backwards or old fashioned about standing up against murder!

Odd then that the 1861 Offences Against The Person Act, which was our abortion legislation until only five years ago, didn't make abortion murder. The current legislation doesn't either - and that's with the 8th in place.

I don't believe you are sincere and are using highly emotive and legally incorrect terminology just to provoke a reaction.

end of the road · 05-01-2018 03:20PM

NuMarvel wrote: »

I'm glad to see you agree that a woman's right to bodily autonomy should be paramount. How does a pregnant woman who doesn't want to be pregnant exercise her right to bodily autonomy if not through abortion?

abortion on demand doesn't effect her bodily autonomy. she is not accessing her bodily autonomy by killing the unborn, which is a separate entity and a separate life ultimately, which will rely on the mother for a time.

NuMarvel wrote: »

Now I know you're trolling us...

well i'm not as i don't engage in trolling. having a different viewpoint to you isn't trolling. this is basic stuff.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I really wish people would stop calling it murder. It isn't murder. In any shape or form. Calling it so is hyperbole and inaccurate and just takes away from the discussion. It just comes across like trying to point score and is highly insensitive to women who are on this thread who have shared their stories about having abortions themselves.

i don't agree. if people believe it to be murder that is their view and they are entitled to it. if it's insensitive then that can't be helped but it will be nothing near as insensitive as killing the unborn outside extreme circumstances.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

All I’m seeing here is women, women, women. Women should know better, women should do this, women should do that.
Does the woman create the baby all by herself or am I missing something?

You actually sound like one of those men that hates women. You clearly have no respect for them. Your point of view is ignorant at best, and dangerous at worst.
You don’t have compassion. You haven’t even touched on any of the issues regarding the 8th and maternity care and consent, which shows you don’t have a clue. So clearly all you care about is ‘saving da baybeez’.
Or at least that’s what you seem to think.

I can’t wait for this referendum will be passed so people like you won’t have a platform for sharing your hateful views any more.

the referendum passing isn't going to make the pro-life campaign go away. they are going nowhere, this isn't going to be a repeat of the SSM referendum.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

its not a baby until its born
until then its a foetus
in the first few weeks its a chemical embryo

people make mistakes. life is about choices and mistakes
they should have the choice to correct their mistakes (early in the pregnancy)
life is not black and white. there's a whole grey area in between

it's a baby the minute the heart begins to beat and there is brain activity. before that it is still a being and has the right to be protected. if people badly want an abortion then they are able to avail of it, it isn't needed in ireland bar extreme circumstances, which rightly are facilitated in ireland.

kylith wrote: »

And if the contraceptive fails? What then? Should women be punished with a pregnancy they don't want because they had sex? What about women who are raped? Should they be forced to carry her rapists' child?

We have had women on this thread who would be left wheelchair bound if they went through another pregnancy. There are women who are refused medication that they need because it could harm a fetus. There are women made to carry foetuses that are dead or dying. There are womdn who have to give birth to children that they want who they know will die within hours of birth, in pain. That is what the 8th amendment does.

I find myself thinking that you're very young yet, and that you may not have experienced the bowel-loosening terror of the sudden pregnancy scare. Take a deep breath, step back, and think how you would feel if you discovered you were pregnant in the morning. All the things in your life you wouldn't be able to do. The impact it would have on your career and your future prospects.

your career and your future prospects are not reasons for abortion on demand to be availible in ireland.

Delirium · 05-01-2018 03:28PM

end of the road wrote: »

abortion on demand doesn't effect her bodily autonomy. she is not accessing her bodily autonomy by killing the unborn, which is a separate entity and a separate life ultimately, which will rely on the mother for a time.

Bodily autonomy is choosing what happens regarding their own body. By not allowing a person avail of abortion (should they choose to have one) you are denying them bodily autonomy.

pilly · 05-01-2018 03:29PM

Edward M wrote: »

I mean the easiest way out of a pregnancy.
For some, and maybe a very small percentage, of those that seek abortion on demand it may be used as the first option instead of carrying a pregnancy through to the end when it might be a very possible outcome.
If you want to term that as a late contraception, then ok, that would be it.
I'm not talking the morning after pill sort of thing, but the 10/12 week decision as taking abortion as just an easy option, whether necessary or not.
It would happen I feel, and for that reason I'd be torn as to supporting such legislation.

I really like your reasoned way of thinking Edward and fully respect that this is not an easy vote.

But at the same time, if you are torn so much about what way to vote why would you think a woman finds it "easy" to have an abortion?

Do you get that it's not an easy option for anyone?

Hotblack Desiato · 05-01-2018 03:30PM

Loafing Oaf wrote: »

Remember all the talk of a massive rebellion in Fine Gael that would bring that down? How did that work out at the end of the day?

Not a single TD or Senator who left FG over the POLDPA legislation won a seat in the next election. You'd think the 'silent majority' would have flocked to them.

How did Renua get on......?

SusieBlue · 05-01-2018 03:34PM

Delirium wrote: »

Bodily autonomy is choosing what happens regarding their own body. By not allowing a person avail of abortion (should they choose to have one) you are denying them bodily autonomy.

This has been explained to him about 30 times over the course of 5/6 threads, and he doesn't care. Apparently his opinions are facts, therefore if he says bodily autonomy isn't effected, it just isn't.

Its like talking to a brick wall.

SusieBlue · 05-01-2018 03:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

i don't agree. if people believe it to be murder that is their view and they are entitled to it. if it's insensitive then that can't be helped but it will be nothing near as insensitive as killing the unborn outside extreme circumstances.

I'm just as entitled to believe the word is insensitive and has no place in this debate other than below the belt point scoring.

the referendum passing isn't going to make the pro-life campaign go away. they are going nowhere, this isn't going to be a repeat of the SSM referendum.

That is exactly what's going to happen. You can continue your life, not availing of abortions, nothing will change for you. The rest of us will have our choice and all will be right again.
The pro-birthers will go back under the rock they crawled out of until the next referendum comes around.

....... · 05-01-2018 03:54PM

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eviltwin · 05-01-2018 03:57PM

....... wrote: »

Ah, here you are again.

I am still awaiting,

(a) evidence to show that the 8th Amendment should be kept in place due to positive outcomes and

(b) an argument provided to show that a fetus should have more rights than a living sentient woman.

FOURTH time to ask you directly now, or FIFTH? Ive lost count.

And I'd like EOTR to answer my question about what legal sanctions women who have abortions here should face given that it's murder.....

end of the road · 05-01-2018 04:13PM

Delirium wrote: »

Bodily autonomy is choosing what happens regarding their own body. By not allowing a person avail of abortion (should they choose to have one) you are denying them bodily autonomy.

i really don't agree. killing the unborn isn't exercising bodily autonomy due to as i said, the unborn being ultimately a separate entity. yes it relies on the mother for a time for survival, but there are lots of other times where one may rely on someone else for survival and we don't allow their killing.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

I'm just as entitled to believe the word is insensitive and has no place in this debate other than below the belt point scoring.

i never said you weren't.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

That is exactly what's going to happen. You can continue your life, not availing of abortions, nothing will change for you. The rest of us will have our choice and all will be right again.
The pro-birthers will go back under the rock they crawled out of until the next referendum comes around.

the pro-life side are going nowhere, there will be a campaign in some form to insure abortion on demand being availible in ireland will be made very very difficult. how that campaign will go is anyone's guess but there will be one. abortion is a contentious issue and the pro-life campaign aren't going to give up the fight just because the referendum supposibly passes. you already have your choice, the uk which is only a short trip away.

eviltwin wrote: »

And I'd like EOTR to answer my question about what legal sanctions women who have abortions here should face given that it's murder.....

the protesters outside abortion clynics showing contempt is enough.

Delirium · 05-01-2018 04:18PM

end of the road wrote: »

i really don't agree. killing the unborn isn't exercising bodily autonomy due to as i said, the unborn being ultimately a separate entity. yes it relies on the mother for a time for survival, but there are lots of other times where one may rely on someone else for survival and we don't allow their killing.

Either you're not understanding "bodily autonomy" or basic biology.

Please explain how choosing to have an abortion is not making a choice about what is happening within their own body.

seamus · 05-01-2018 04:23PM

end of the road wrote: »

the protesters outside abortion clynics showing contempt is enough.

Great. So you support the right of women to choose an abortion then.

Because being pro-life requires that you support legal sanctions against abortion.

If you don't support legal sanctions against abortion, then you are pro-choice.

It's fundamentally incompatible to say abortion should not be permitted but shouldn't be illegal.

pilly · 05-01-2018 04:26PM

January wrote: »

Yawn.

BTW I think of my abortion nearly every day (especially now coming up to the referendum), doesn't mean I regret it or am ashamed of it. I made the best decision for my family at the time it happened. Bringing another child into the world would have forced my already born children into a life of poverty. Why don't you care about children who are already born?

You're pro-birth, not pro-life.

Please don't justify yourself to the likes of that Jan, I won't. It doesn't deserve any response.

It's random ravings of a religious nut.

pilly · 05-01-2018 04:30PM

I've come back to this thread again because I've seen some actual good discussion going on for a change I just really wish something could be done about repetitive posting of crap. It's draining. Even with someone on ignore, they're quoted by every other person.

end of the road · 05-01-2018 04:33PM

seamus wrote: »

Great. So you support the right of women to choose an abortion then.

i don't. however if they travel outside the state there is nothing that can be done.

seamus wrote: »

Because being pro-life requires that you support legal sanctions against abortion.

no it doesn't. you can support something being illegal but understand that the odd time it is such that sanctions can't be enforced.

seamus wrote: »

If you don't support legal sanctions against abortion, then you are pro-choice.

no you aren't.

pilly wrote: »

Please don't justify yourself to the likes of that Jan, I won't. It doesn't deserve any response.

It's random ravings of a religious nut.

has the poster said he is religious? not that i can find anyway. you don't have to be religious to be against abortion, whether it's being against abortion on demand or abortion full stop regardless of extreme circumstances.

eviltwin · 05-01-2018 04:35PM

end of the road wrote: »

the protesters outside abortion clynics showing contempt is enough.

Well I'm confused. You've been arguing that abortion is the killing of a baby, that the unborn should be treated as individuals, that they deserve the same legal protection as the living....

Why then do you not support legal sanctions for abortions here?

I'm genuinely confused by this. If you believe an unborn baby is as equal to a living baby then why wouldn't you want it's death, or murder if you are looking at it that way, to be investigated and punished accordingly?

end of the road · 05-01-2018 04:38PM

eviltwin wrote: »

Well I'm confused. You've been arguing that abortion is the killing of a baby, that the unborn should be treated as individuals, that they deserve the same legal protection as the living....

Why then do you not support legal sanctions for abortions here?

I'm genuinely confused by this. If you believe an unborn baby is as equal to a living baby then why wouldn't you want it's death, or murder if you are it that way, to be investigated and punished accordingly?

because it's not going to happen. so i would be campaigning for something that won't happen. however campaigning for the status quo where abortion on demand isn't availible in ireland and those who want it can go to england is actually doable.

The 8th amendment(Mod warning in op)

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