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Costs of Irish unification.

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Comments

  • #602
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    The statelet keeps failing because two opposing communities and their respective political representatives prefer to live in the past than forge a future.

    This is demonstrably incorrect. The DUP/UUP are blocking progressive legislation that every other political party, who make up the majority of MLAs in the Assembly, want. Do you understand cultural Unionism in any sense? It's deeply rooted in the past - you'll find evidence of this every summer all over the north.

    Also, as I've mentioned previously, keeping the north as a dependency of England's makes a UI less attractive for southern voters and helps to ensure partition, the DUP/UUP are all too aware of this while they collect their generous pay and look forward to ample pensions.


  • #603
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    No country has a "natural state" though. All political boundaries are largely artificial constructs.

    I disagree. A foreign power occupying a region and imposing it's will does not stop Ulster being a part of Ireland, however they dress it up with their brand of democracy. Not to mention the geography of being an island.
    Look at East Germany, it was always East Germany despite being under occupation at the time. A unified Germany is Germany's natural state.


  • #604
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Which abjectly fails to explain why more send their children to denominational schools.

    We know there are exceptions. :rolleyes:

    Well the choice is there. People choose to send their kids to a school just as they choose the politicians who will oversee the education system in NI, then are surprised when nothing changes.

    This has nothing to do with the Republic, so I'm unclear as to why we should be lumbered with paying for an education system, in the event of a UI, that is clearly failing the population and that population show little interest in reforming it.

    It's just one example of something the people could do to help themselves and won't.


  • #605
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    No country has a "natural state" though. All political boundaries are largely artificial constructs.

    Kinda going down an epistemological rabbit-hole here. There are political and physical borders. The border in Ireland is an example of a combination of the two - a line drawn by force of politics which sometimes runs along rivers, lakes and loughs but just as often cuts through rural communities, farms and fields.

    Islands often make up homogeneous nations of people from little places like The Faroe Islands and Iceland to Japan with its ~120m population.


  • #606
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,863 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Great progress has been made in northern Ireland since the GFA and as long as it is a process then a UI could arguably have been long fingered.
    So... many of Northern Ireland's problems were addressed while partition remained in place? I guess partition wasn't the cause of those problems, so.
    However it has become painfully evident over the last 5 years or so that belligerent bigoted unionism is not willing to create a normal society based on equality.
    That has led to first, stagnation of the process and finally to colapse altogether.

    Ask yourself why belligerent bigoted unionism is that way. What gave them to believe that they have some god given right to vetos in northern Ireland.

    Back we come again to the cyclical problem - partition.
    You just executed another perfect question-begging exercise. You've blamed one group of people for the problems in Northern Ireland - and, let's face it, it's not like I expected you to blame anyone other than themmuns - and then, like a parlour trick, managed to convert that into blaming partition. No logic required, rational analysis superfluous: merely partition => unionists => problems, therefore remove partition => unionists will suddenly stop being obstinate people => problem solved.

    It's exactly like the Creationist thread over on the Atheism forum: this is what I believe, therefore this is where all the evidence points. QED.
    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    You misunderstood. It's natural state being a complete country that includes all of Ulster.
    What's natural about it?
    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    I disagree. A foreign power occupying a region and imposing it's will does not stop Ulster being a part of Ireland, however they dress it up with their brand of democracy.

    Northern Ireland isn't occupied. Even if you could claim that it ever was (and, Lord knows, there are plenty who will make that claim at the drop of a hat), we relinquished our territorial claim on it two decades ago (although, Lord knows, there's no shortage of people who will insist on misreading the Constitution in order to support their dogmatic belief that such a territorial claim still exists). Northern Ireland is part of the UK. A country can't occupy its own territory, it's a logical impossibility.


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  • #607
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    we relinquished our territorial claim on it two decades ago (although, Lord knows, there's no shortage of people who will insist on misreading the Constitution in order to support their dogmatic belief that such a territorial claim still exists).

    The aspiration remains in place where the overt constitutional claim once was. I know the damn words off-by-heart at this stage

    It is the firm will of the Irish Nation, in harmony and friendship, to unite all the people who share the territory of the island of Ireland.

    We've been here before:

    437800.png


  • #608
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,863 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    The aspiration remains in place where the overt constitutional claim once was.

    Yes. You can't occupy an aspiration.


  • #609
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,726 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well the choice is there. People choose to send their kids to a school just as they choose the politicians who will oversee the education system in NI, then are surprised when nothing changes.

    This has nothing to do with the Republic, so I'm unclear as to why we should be lumbered with paying for an education system, in the event of a UI, that is clearly failing the population and that population show little interest in reforming it.

    It's just one example of something the people could do to help themselves and won't.

    Ok, so you don't want to confront why that situation evolved. Please yourself.


  • #610
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,726 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    So... many of Northern Ireland's problems were addressed while partition remained in place? I guess partition wasn't the cause of those problems, so. You just executed another perfect question-begging exercise. You've blamed one group of people for the problems in Northern Ireland - and, let's face it, it's not like I expected you to blame anyone other than themmuns - and then, like a parlour trick, managed to convert that into blaming partition. No logic required, rational analysis superfluous: merely partition => unionists => problems, therefore remove partition => unionists will suddenly stop being obstinate people => problem solved.

    It's exactly like the Creationist thread over on the Atheism forum: this is what I believe, therefore this is where all the evidence points. QED.

    Well if you can show me that the 'other side' is blocking rights and refusing to progress the GFA as intended, I am more than willing to say that it is everybody's fault.

    Whenever you are ready.


  • #611
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Northern Ireland is no more occupied than Yorkshire or Cornwall. It opted to remain in the UK. It’s not like the majority wished to leave and they were prevented from doing so.


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  • #612
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Ok, so you don't want to confront why that situation evolved. Please yourself.

    Well I've asked you to show how partition causes poor educational outcomes and you respond with.....well with nothing really.

    If I or anyone else suggested the opposite would you accept it or demand some evidence that verifies the truth of the assertion.

    I don't expect you will provide evidence because none exists.


  • #613
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Baron de Charlus wrote: »
    Northern Ireland is no more occupied than Yorkshire or Cornwall. It opted to remain in the UK. It’s not like the majority wished to leave and they were prevented from doing so.

    NI was occupied and ethnic cleansing was used to achieve a certain population balance by the inclusion of people who do not identify with where they live but rather with Britain. Those people then advocated a continuation of the occupation.

    The thing is bad enough without false comparisons with Yorkshire.


  • #614
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,726 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Well I've asked you to show how partition causes poor educational outcomes and you respond with.....well with nothing really.

    If I or anyone else suggested the opposite would you accept it or demand some evidence that verifies the truth of the assertion.

    I don't expect you will provide evidence because none exists.

    People don't naturally behave that way. Something has caused them to.
    Continue ignoring the elephant in the room.


  • #615
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »
    This is demonstrably incorrect. The DUP/UUP are blocking progressive legislation that every other political party, who make up the majority of MLAs in the Assembly, want. Do you understand cultural Unionism in any sense? It's deeply rooted in the past - you'll find evidence of this every summer all over the north.

    Also, as I've mentioned previously, keeping the north as a dependency of England's makes a UI less attractive for southern voters and helps to ensure partition, the DUP/UUP are all too aware of this while they collect their generous pay and look forward to ample pensions.

    The DUP and SF dance around each other, refusing to give an inch and demanding their pound of flesh in return, each for their own version of what passes for lofty principles. Whether it's clinging onto Westminster or refusing to take seats there...two cheeks of the same back-side.

    The North would be less likely to be a dependency if there was a moderate SF mandate and they actually came to the table representing their own constituents, never mind work to bring moderate Unionists on-side. Frustratingly, NI could look attractive to the majority tomorrow if even one side would accept their own role, validate the position of the other even if they don't agree with it and move forward. The inability to do that is what makes the place look like an unhealable black-hole of time, energy and funding.

    You can keep finger-pointing at one group of people and politicians that will still be there come the end of partition, if you think that will increase re-unification popularity...or you can accept that the historic blame-game is part of the problem and that it is well within SF's power to actually do something to change the status quo, in the here and now. If they can take up seats/wages in Stormont and the Daíl, there is no good reason why they can't directly challenge the DUP's cantankerous bs in Westminster and convince potential voters from both sides of the border that re-unification wouldn't just mean more of the same with an extra austerity bill for the privilege of realising some romantic notion that hadn't ever a hope of achieving anything other than cartographical success.

    If that's too big an ask then it's up to the people of NI to start voting for a moderate third party that is not purely a vehicle for the outdated principals of one side or the other...start making themselves look more attractive to invite into everyday politics and fiscal policy.


  • #616
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    People don't naturally behave that way. Something has caused them to.
    Continue ignoring the elephant in the room.

    So what's the mechanism? Where's the piece of research showing any causation?

    I threw up loads of data and analysis showing much NI costs and a report showing how poor educational outcomes have cause the productivity gap......so provide the missing bit of the jigsaw that shows partition is causing the current educational issues.

    Aside from 10 months, SF have held the education portfolio for most of the period since 1999.......they've had a generation to change the way people "naturally behave" - what would make anyone think an education system administered from Marlborough Street could be more successful, efficient or cost effective in a UI?


  • #617
    James Brown
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,012 ✭✭✭✭James Brown


    oscarBravo wrote: »
    ....

    What's natural about it?

    It's the northern part of the island, know as Ireland. Ulster is part of Ireland. Ireland includes Ulster.
    oscarBravo wrote: »
    Northern Ireland isn't occupied. Even if you could claim that it ever was (and, Lord knows, there are plenty who will make that claim at the drop of a hat), we relinquished our territorial claim on it two decades ago (although, Lord knows, there's no shortage of people who will insist on misreading the Constitution in order to support their dogmatic belief that such a territorial claim still exists). Northern Ireland is part of the UK. A country can't occupy its own territory, it's a logical impossibility.

    There's a people who call themselves Ulster Scots, loyal to a foreign power when it suits, who celebrate another foreign monarch as part of their culture. Unlike many cultures and peoples who have combined to create Ireland, these people set themselves apart from their fellow countrymen. Despite any PR and currently adhering to a democratic process, I'd refer to the 'clean hands' doctrine; obtaining land by force, imposing your will by force and then playing at democracy under your own rules is not coming to the political/democratic table with 'clean hands'. In short it's absurdly simplistic to say 'A country can't occupy its own territory' in regard to Ulster (or any occupied land) despite the popularity of the Royals in 'Hello', the skills of the British in regards of PR and people intentionally turning a blind eye.


  • #618
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    The DUP and SF dance around each other, refusing to give an inch

    What are SF refusing to give? The DUP are blocking a list of legislative measures that are the norm in Britain and Ireland.
    The North would be less likely to be a dependency if there was a moderate SF mandate and they actually came to the table representing their own constituents,

    SF were voted for in their greatest ever numbers in the Westminster elections and the SDLP were wiped out. That is a clear rejection by the Nationalist community of Westminster rule.
    never mind work to bring moderate Unionists on-side.

    They tried and got nothing but sneering and disengagement of unionists from the cross-border institutions. Trying to woo unionists is an utter waste of time.
    If they can take up seats/wages in Stormont and the Da there is no good reason why they can't directly challenge the DUP's cantankerous bs in Westminster

    And go against the wishes of their electorate who voted SDLP out of Westminster and SF in in abstencia? Why the hell would they do this? SF have been moving the political centre-of-gravity away from Westminster not toward it.
    If that's too big an ask then it's up to the people of NI to start voting for a moderate third party

    The current impasse is less about tribalism and more about progressive versus regressive.

    All the political parties support an ILA, marriage equality, special status for the north in the EU/UK except the DUP and UUP.

    Say what you see.


  • #619
    oscarBravo
    Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,863 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's the northern part of the island, know as Ireland. Ulster is part of Ireland. Ireland includes Ulster.
    So you'd be opposed to Scottish independence?
    There's a people who call themselves Ulster Scots, loyal to a foreign power when it suits, who celebrate another foreign monarch as part of their culture. Unlike many cultures and peoples who have combined to create Ireland, these people set themselves apart from their fellow countrymen. Despite any PR and currently adhering to a democratic process, I'd refer to the 'clean hands' doctrine; obtaining land by force, imposing your will by force and then playing at democracy under your own rules is not coming to the political/democratic table with 'clean hands'. In short it's absurdly simplistic to say 'A country can't occupy its own territory' in regard to Ulster (or any occupied land) despite the popularity of the Royals in 'Hello', the skills of the British in regards of PR and people intentionally turning a blind eye.

    Waffle, waffle. Northern Ireland isn't occupied.


  • #620
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    It's the northern part of the island, know as Ireland. Ulster is part of Ireland. Ireland includes Ulster.



    There's a people who call themselves Ulster Scots, loyal to a foreign power when it suits, who celebrate another foreign monarch as part of their culture. Unlike many cultures and peoples who have combined to create Ireland, these people set themselves apart from their fellow countrymen. Despite any PR and currently adhering to a democratic process, I'd refer to the 'clean hands' doctrine; obtaining land by force, imposing your will by force and then playing at democracy under your own rules is not coming to the political/democratic table with 'clean hands'. In short it's absurdly simplistic to say 'A country can't occupy its own territory' in regard to Ulster (or any occupied land) despite the popularity of the Royals in 'Hello', the skills of the British in regards of PR and people intentionally turning a blind eye.
    So Scotland and Wales should also cease to exist and there should just be 2 countries in these islands, Ireland and Great Britain. Is that what you're saying?


  • #621
    Carlos Orange
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭Carlos Orange


    Matt Barrett wrote: »
    A unified Germany is Germany's natural state.

    Are you a big believer in pan germanicism?


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  • #622
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,726 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Jawgap wrote: »

    Aside from 10 months, SF have held the education portfolio for most of the period since 1999.......they've had a generation to change the way people "naturally behave" - what would make anyone think an education system administered from Marlborough Street could be more successful, efficient or cost effective in a UI?

    Dear me. You really don't get it, do you.

    Why would you point to the problem in order to try and show there isn't one.

    Two communities, hedged in by a failed partition. You just highlighted one side of the problem.


  • #623
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Dear me. You really don't get it, do you.

    Why would you point to the problem in order to try and show there isn't one.

    Two communities, hedged in by a failed partition. You just highlighted on side of the problem.
    When I read how terrible NI is on here I start to wonder if partition hasn't done a great job of quarantining the problems on the island.


  • #624
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,726 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    murphaph wrote: »
    When I read how terrible NI is on here I start to wonder if partition hasn't done a great job of quarantining the problems on the island.

    Again with the partitionist thinking.


  • #625
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,130 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Again with the partitionist thinking.
    What's the opposite of a partitionist? A unionist!


  • #626
    Charles Babbage
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,037 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    murphaph wrote: »
    What's the opposite of a partitionist? A unionist!

    Not so, both unionists and partitionists believe that it is appropriate to have NI nationalists as an inferior class of person in their own country. Both have supremacist political philosophies.


  • #627
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    Nobody said it dogmatically.

    Great progress has been made in northern Ireland since the GFA and as long as it is a process then a UI could arguably have been long fingered.

    However it has become painfully evident over the last 5 years or so that belligerent bigoted unionism is not willing to create a normal society based on equality.
    That has led to first, stagnation of the process and finally to colapse altogether.

    Ask yourself why belligerent bigoted unionism is that way. What gave them to believe that they have some god given right to vetos in northern Ireland.

    Back we come again to the cyclical problem - partition.


    Let us be absolutely clear on this. You are criticising what you call "belligerent bigoted unionism" on two issues - same-sex marriage and the recognition of the Irish language.

    In 1969, when the IRA kicked off, what was the situation with those two issues.

    (1) Homosexuality was banned in 1969, are you trying to tell me that the whole IRA campaign was about gaining rights for the gay community? Seriously?

    (2) The Irish language had about 10 native speakers in Northern Ireland in 1969.

    So how are they now the raison d'etre of the nationalist cause?

    Go back further and tell me were either of these issues raised at the time of partition? I don't think so, but maybe you could enlighten me.

    The point I am making is that the problems and the issues that Northern Ireland is facing today have nothing to do with partition, didn't exist when partition happened, and blaming them on partition is the ultimate crutch, the ultimate "he made me do it" excuse. Until there is some maturity in Northern Ireland politics, and people stop using old tired excuses for their behaviour, then there will be no progress.


  • #628
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,726 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Let us be absolutely clear on this. You are criticising what you call "belligerent bigoted unionism" on two issues - same-sex marriage and the recognition of the Irish language.

    In 1969, when the IRA kicked off, what was the situation with those two issues.

    (1) Homosexuality was banned in 1969, are you trying to tell me that the whole IRA campaign was about gaining rights for the gay community? Seriously?

    (2) The Irish language had about 10 native speakers in Northern Ireland in 1969.

    So how are they now the raison d'etre of the nationalist cause?

    Go back further and tell me were either of these issues raised at the time of partition? I don't think so, but maybe you could enlighten me.

    The point I am making is that the problems and the issues that Northern Ireland is facing today have nothing to do with partition, didn't exist when partition happened, and blaming them on partition is the ultimate crutch, the ultimate "he made me do it" excuse. Until there is some maturity in Northern Ireland politics, and people stop using old tired excuses for their behaviour, then there will be no progress.

    The point you continue to miss is WHY northern Ireland is how it is. Why a side thinks it has the right to veto progress on religious and cultural grounds.

    Try explaining why that happened instead of moralising about what it is.


  • #629
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    Jawgap wrote: »
    So what's the mechanism? Where's the piece of research showing any causation?

    I threw up loads of data and analysis showing much NI costs and a report showing how poor educational outcomes have cause the productivity gap......so provide the missing bit of the jigsaw that shows partition is causing the current educational issues.

    Aside from 10 months, SF have held the education portfolio for most of the period since 1999.......they've had a generation to change the way people "naturally behave" - what would make anyone think an education system administered from Marlborough Street could be more successful, efficient or cost effective in a UI?

    To be fair, any Fianna Fail, Fine Gael, Labour or Green Education Minister ruling from Marlborough Street would be better than whatever eejit SF installed in Stormont.


  • #630
    blanch152
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,195 ✭✭✭✭blanch152


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    The point you continue to miss is WHY northern Ireland is how it is. Why a side thinks it has the right to veto progress on religious and cultural grounds.

    Try explaining why that happened instead of moralising about what it is.


    Events of a century ago have zero influence on the economic performance of any other Western democracy, why is it that partition is so influential, and where is the evidence that it is the cause of the problem rather than the excuse trotted out by the incompetent nationalist politicians?


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  • #631
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,726 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    blanch152 wrote: »
    Events of a century ago have zero influence on the economic performance of any other Western democracy, why is it that partition is so influential, and where is the evidence that it is the cause of the problem rather than the excuse trotted out by the incompetent nationalist politicians?

    The 'effects' of partition which created an artificial state where the Unionist majority began immediately to turn it into a sectarian state. That polarisation is still in evidence to this day and is the reason for the current stagnation and collapse.
    It will not disappear on it's own because the statelet created by a now disinterested Britain has failed.


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