Eir rural FTTH thread

Marlow · 29-12-2017 11:41AM

digiman wrote: »

Could you imagine what would happen to Eir now if they were forced to lease their fiber network that they have just rolled out for 13c/m for each fiber? Recall that another operator could come along and lease 1 fiber and put 256 homes on it if they choose depending on what type of equipment they use in the exchange. It’s obviously not just as simple as the above as there are a lot of other capex costs involved and more strands of fiber are required before and pay to acces poles and chambers etc

Assuming it's 13c/m to build, that figure doesn't work like that either. Simply because fiber is never just put down as 1 fiber. It's 12, 16, 48, 96 or more cores for that figure. It's the initial civils, that are the main cost.

Also, operators typically make agreements for 3, 5 or 10 years, when they lease dark fiber.

In the case of access, there's as you said different cost / revenue for OpenEIR ... as with LLU, you'd need to place gear somewhere to access the fiber.

Either way, the income of lets say 12 core, if leased out, would not be 26c/m for OpenEir, it would be 12x26c/m = 3.12 EUR/m .. if they leased it all out. And that's not leasing it out at a loss.

You're also touching another problem there ... OpenEIR is not supposed to think in competition between the operators, that are on their network. So, if somebody else was going to provide access using their dark fiber, then that should be encouraged. OpenEir is not the one, that gets retail customers.

The competition at that point would be with Eir.

In the case of the MANs, 48-core was rolled out. And it's being charged at extortionate pricing compared to market price. (3 EUR/m per pair .... if you're lucky .. and they won't sell you a single fiber).

/M

digiman · 29-12-2017 12:10PM

Marlow wrote: »

Assuming it's 13c/m to build, that figure doesn't work like that either. Simply because fiber is never just put down as 1 fiber. It's 12, 16, 48, 96 or more cores for that figure. It's the initial civils, that are the main cost.

Also, operators typically make agreements for 3, 5 or 10 years, when they lease dark fiber.

In the case of access, there's as you said different cost / revenue for OpenEIR ... as with LLU, you'd need to place gear somewhere to access the fiber.

Either way, the income of lets say 12 core, if leased out, would not be 26c/m for OpenEir, it would be 12x26c/m = 3.12 EUR/m .. if they leased it all out. And that's not leasing it out at a loss.

You're also touching another problem there ... OpenEIR is not supposed to think in competition between the operators, that are on their network. So, if somebody else was going to provide access using their dark fiber, then that should be encouraged. OpenEir is not the one, that gets retail customers.

The competition at that point would be with Eir.

/M

I never said it was 13c/m to build, it’s 100s times that to build. You wouldn’t even buy fiber cable that cheap never mind install it!!

12 core is 12 fibers only so that is 12*13c/m. I’m not sure what you are trying to calculate above actually but the calculations don’t look correct for anything I could imagine you are trying to calculate.

You have to bare in mind also that you won’t be able to lease out the entire network and would be impossible to lease out lease 6 fiber pairs to multiple customers on the vast majority of their network.

Also you have to factor in that other operators are not stupid and will lease where it is cost affective and deploy there own fiber where it is not. For example you wouldn’t lease a full cable at 13c/m for 12 fibers, it would be cheaper in long term to deploy your own and you are also not funding the competition either and you could also lease that fibre back to the market again.

Marlow · 29-12-2017 12:14PM

digiman wrote: »

Could you imagine what would happen to Eir now if they were forced to lease their fiber network that they have just rolled out for 13c/m for each fiber?

digiman wrote: »

I never said it was 13c/m to build

You said 13c/m for each fiber. But that's nonsense, as it's never a single fiber and the cost doesn't really vary that much between lets say 12-core and 48-core. And even at 13c/m for each fiber, the markup is 100%, when sold at 26c/m.

/M

oscarBravo · 29-12-2017 12:22PM

digiman wrote: »

Can you provide the link to the calculations please? I would love to see how they could come up with that price given how costly it is to build it just doesn’t make any sense.

http://www.comreg.ie/publication-download/pricing-of-eiras-wholesale-fixed-access-services-response-to-consultation-document-1567-and-final-decision

My only point is that it is doesn’t make economical sense to build fiber networks and then be forced to lease the fiber back at 26c/m...

digiman wrote: »

Also you have to factor in that other operators are not stupid and will lease where it is cost affective and deploy there own fiber where it is not. For example you wouldn’t lease a full cable at 13c/m for 12 fibers, it would be cheaper in long term to deploy your own...

You're contradicting yourself. You're arguing that it's so expensive to build a fibre network that a company would go bust selling it for 13c/m, while also arguing that it would be cheaper to build a fibre network than to lease 12 fibres at 13c/m.

Logically, only one of those assertions can be true.

digiman · 29-12-2017 12:24PM

Marlow wrote: »

You said 13c/m for each fiber. But that's nonsense, as it's never a single fiber and the cost doesn't really vary that much between lets say 12-core and 48-core. And even at 13c/m for each fiber, the markup is 100%, when sold at 26c/m.

/M

I said it was 13c/m to lease, of course it’s not that cheap to build or we would have had our NBP completed by now or more likely no need for a state intervention.

Marlow · 29-12-2017 12:30PM

digiman wrote: »

Can you provide the link to the calculations please? I would love to see how they could come up with that price given how costly it is to build it just doesn’t make any sense.

All I did, was a Google search for: "comreg dark fiber calculation" and this is the first result, that comes up:

https://www.comreg.ie/csv/downloads/ComReg1567.pdf , which is from July 2015. (That's a Consultation and Draft Decision ... oscarBravo has posted the final one above).

It explains, how pricing is calculated and sets the suggested pricing for dark fiber at 0.19c/m. It also outlines, that dark fiber only is to be made available at that price, when ducting capacity is full. It outlines the pricing for ducting, access to poles, etc., too.

Either way .. happy reading.

digiman wrote: »

I said it was 13c/m to lease, of course it’s not that cheap to build or we would have had our NBP completed by now or more likely no need for a state intervention.

Well, then you should have structured your sentence better. Because that's not what it suggested.

/M

Marlow · 29-12-2017 12:50PM

digiman wrote: »

or we would have had our NBP completed by now or more likely no need for a state intervention.

Even at 13c/m to build, are you aware of how many km of fiber have to be laid for the NBP ? 13c/m, that's 130 EUR/km.

And of course, it may be more costly to lay the fiber at that price, but the overall assumption is, that the fiber will last at least 10-15 years.

So now, lets say you leased the fiber out at 13c/m .. that's per year.

- So in 10 years your investment would have got you 1.30EUR/m/fiber.
- Now you multiply that by the amount of fibers ... lets say 12 core: 12x1.30 EUR/m = 15.60EUR/m

So that's the figure you need to use when looking at cost/benefit compared to the figure that it costs to install the fiber.

State intervention is only needed, because OpenEIR deems that profit margins are too low in rural areas. Not because it as such is unprofitable.

/M

digiman · 29-12-2017 01:07PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

http://www.comreg.ie/publication-download/pricing-of-eiras-wholesale-fixed-access-services-response-to-consultation-document-1567-and-final-decision

You're contradicting yourself. You're arguing that it's so expensive to build a fibre network that a company would go bust selling it for 13c/m, while also arguing that it would be cheaper to build a fibre network than to lease 12 fibres at 13c/m.

Logically, only one of those assertions can be true.

I was typing the replies on my phone so perhaps I was being lazy with my responses!!

What I was trying to say was that there is a trade-off between a company who needs 1 fibre versus a company that needs 12 fibres. One company will choose to lease that 1 fibre at 13c/m while the other company may decide that it would be more cost effective to deploy a much larger capacity fibre cable themselves, use 12 fibers and then lease the rest of them back to the market. At the end of the day there is 12x the cost between renting 1 fibre versus 12 but there is not 12 times the cost to lay 1 fibre versus 12. Maybe 12 is not the breakeven point, could be higher or lower.

The problem is though that the 13c/m is across the entire network and doesn't factor the cost of laying fibre in different scenarios for example, on a grass verge versus down the main street of a town where you may only be able to deploy at the weekend or late at night with large reinstatement costs. This means that other commercial operators will lease where it makes sense and could end up cherry picking the really expensive places to build but in the end could have sterilised a 10km route of fibre by buying 100m just to cross a motorway for example.

I've not read the Comreg docuement yet obviously so perhaps this is already called out?

Marlow · 29-12-2017 01:09PM

digiman wrote: »

I've not read the Comreg docuement yet obviously so perhaps this is already called out?

Dark fiber pricing in for example Dublin is higher (as per that document), as it's more difficult to access/lay the fiber. Licenses, time of day to install the fiber etc.

Rural fiber tends to be: work away whenever it suits yourself.

So .. Dublin 25c/m. Rural 13c/m.

/M

oscarBravo · 29-12-2017 01:55PM

digiman wrote: »

What I was trying to say was that there is a trade-off between a company who needs 1 fibre versus a company that needs 12 fibres. One company will choose to lease that 1 fibre at 13c/m while the other company may decide that it would be more cost effective to deploy a much larger capacity fibre cable themselves, use 12 fibers and then lease the rest of them back to the market. At the end of the day there is 12x the cost between renting 1 fibre versus 12 but there is not 12 times the cost to lay 1 fibre versus 12. Maybe 12 is not the breakeven point, could be higher or lower.

The broader point is that you can't just say "it costs more than €0.13/m to lay a strand of fibre therefore it's unreasonable to charge that little for it" - the up-front cost isn't for fibre, it's for digging, and in a functional market, leasing dozens of pairs at €0.26/m actually gives a decent return over the life of the network.

The problem is though that the 13c/m is across the entire network and doesn't factor the cost of laying fibre in different scenarios for example, on a grass verge versus down the main street of a town where you may only be able to deploy at the weekend or late at night with large reinstatement costs. This means that other commercial operators will lease where it makes sense and could end up cherry picking the really expensive places to build but in the end could have sterilised a 10km route of fibre by buying 100m just to cross a motorway for example.

I've not read the Comreg docuement yet obviously so perhaps this is already called out?

It is - open eir made the same objections (I've been wryly amused to see you (probably inadvertently) taking eir's side in this discussion) and ComReg disagreed.

If you rent duct space from open eir, you pay based on the type of ground (street, verge, etc). ComReg argued that it would be unworkable to price dark fibre on the same basis and imposed an average price. Given that it's an average across the network, it's an overcharge in some cases and an undercharge in others, and balances out overall.

It's all moot anyway, since - as you'll see when you read the document - it's framed in such a way as to make it functionally impossible to get access to eir's dark fibre. The broader point is that the regulator has calculated and published what it feels is a fair price for dark fibre, but there's bugger all fibre to be had in the country at anything like that price.

The point was made earlier that the MANs in the larger towns are being utilised: this is true. What's also true is that they would be utilised a hell of a lot more if the pricing was remotely realistic, and that the MANs in the small towns - right down to the tiny ones like Knock Airport - would be utilised also. As it stands, some operators are prepared to pay eye-watering prices for MAN access in some situations because it's (just) cheaper in the short-term than building a parallel network, and because they can make a business case for it in larger towns.

My argument is that, if the taxpayer pays to build a fibre network, the price to access it shouldn't be "the absolute maximum the market will bear", it should be "whatever will encourage utilisation". It's beyond me how ComReg can see fit to set a price for open eir fibre, but completely ignore the fact that government-owned fibre is more than ten times the price.

tsue921i8wljb3 · 29-12-2017 02:25PM

brianbruff wrote: »

A few more questions:

1)
I've seen posts on Bridged Mode that seem to help allocate a different IP to a customers router, does this work the same a fixed IP?
I have a Ubiquiti home network and wish to continue to use my existing USG router.
2)
Also is bridged mode still the only solution? no hope of just using my USG router? (it supports all the requirements..)
3)
Also my existing routers are upstairs directly over the entry point to the house, from what i gather the ODP will have to be downstairs near the entry point; can I buy an extension cable between the ODP and ONT so that I can locate the ONT upstairs in my Cabinet?
(not a big deal i can bring some power to this entry point location worst case but rather have the ONT upstairs with all my communication gear.

tnx in advance for any advise

You should be able to use your USG router. Once it has the ability to do VLAN tagging on WAN, which I believe it does, you should be fine. No need for a bridge mode. By using your own router though you may lose the use of the VOIP phone service if you subscribe to it. I suppose you could get a separate ATA and configure it with the VOIP credentials supposing your provider is willing to give you the password.

Technically you could obtain a singlemode patch cable with SC connectors if you need to separate the ODP and ONT. I am unsure if anyone in the thread has previously done this.

brianbruff · 30-12-2017 02:27AM

Allison Puny Appetite wrote: »

You should be able to use your USG router. Once it has the ability to do VLAN tagging on WAN, which I believe it does, you should be fine. No need for a bridge mode. By using your own router though you may lose the use of the VOIP phone service if you subscribe to it. I suppose you could get a separate ATA and configure it with the VOIP credentials supposing your provider is willing to give you the password.

Technically you could obtain a singlemode patch cable with SC connectors if you need to separate the ODP and ONT. I am unsure if anyone in the thread has previously done this.

Thanks very much, even better than I was hoping for.
Brian.

KOR101 · 01-01-2018 03:15PM

Article in todays SBP about Eir. Sources say cash flow generation is not as good as it could be. Unlikely that any major cost cutting plans are on the cards. Capital expenditure at about €300m a year at the top end of what telecoms companies across Europe spend. This mostly on the fibre rollout.

Not looking good folks........

Marlow · 01-01-2018 03:18PM

KOR101 wrote: »

Capital expenditure at about €300m a year at the top end of what telecoms companies across Europe spend. This mostly on the fibre rollout.

There's a reason for that ... they've been skimping for so long on not doing the upgrades and then went all out in a very short timeframe to maintain their monopoly.

Obviously that's not sustainable.

/M

rob808 · 01-01-2018 04:49PM

Marlow wrote: »

There's a reason for that ... they've been skimping for so long on not doing the upgrades and then went all out in a very short timeframe to maintain their monopoly.

Obviously that's not sustainable.

/M

I would thought the company keep changing owner with them not investing in network and getting big payout when it changes hands.

Marlow · 01-01-2018 04:52PM

rob808 wrote: »

I would thought the company keep changing owner with them not investing in network and getting big payout when it changes hands.

That comes on top. But the current FTTH spend is mostly on their own budget (opposed to govt funding) ... and was purely actioned to hold their monopoly. Otherwise, they didn't really care about investing in infrastructure.

/M

Marlow · 01-01-2018 04:59PM

Allison Puny Appetite wrote: »

Ironically enough the deadline for the urban project is in four days time. I don't think any planned numbers were ever published so it's hard to say how much was done but definitely 66 towns were not completed.

Well .. that's now definatly not going to happen within timeline

It's actually uncanny, how that pretty much is what SIROs rollout looks like. It probably was with the aim of giving Virgin and SIRO competition.

Then the NBP was announced a year later (about November 2014) and Eir/OpenEIR had to decide to either invest in fortifying their monopoly or compete with SIRO/Virgin on Urban coverage. Their spend clearly shows, they couldn't do both.

/M

Alan G · 02-01-2018 10:00AM

For all those who don't have new builds and have got FTTH installed to their home... Do you have any photos of the quality of the install externally?

I was thinking about running my own conduit externally before the installer arrives so I don't have any unsightly cables mapping across my walls. What size would you recommend?

Thanks

tsue921i8wljb3 · 02-01-2018 04:41PM

Alan G wrote: »

For all those who don't have new builds and have got FTTH installed to their home... Do you have any photos of the quality of the install externally?

I was thinking about running my own conduit externally before the installer arrives so I don't have any unsightly cables mapping across my walls. What size would you recommend?

Thanks

The fibre cable itself is quite small measuring 5.3 x 2mm so if you have a drawstring through the conduit you could get away with a small diameter. Without the drawstring the installers may want to use their cable rods to pull the cable through thus leaving you needing a bigger conduit to accommodate the rods.

02-01-2018 05:39PM

Called out to my house for installation, after ringing me to make sure I was available at the house 3 times
Took the day off work and then the contractor arrives and states Eir gave wrong information and they have us down as connection to a box further down the road
Asked 4 others up the same road and all done the same thing
What a load of bolox

Grimsvotn · 02-01-2018 06:10PM

The Cush wrote: »

If you have an existing phone line does it come in via a duct or overhead from a pole?
If via a duct, issues could include blocked duct or duct too small, such issue will have to be resolved by the householder before install goes ahead.

The engineer visited the house today and decided no work can be done as a two-man crew is required.

The duct for the phone line seems fine but it isn't possible to install the fibre router on the inside of the wall without some major reconstruction indoors. The engineer suggested we run a new duct from where the existing duct ends and move the fibre cable into a different part of the house.

This all seems to be something that I will have to take upon myself. Has anyone had any experience in buying, digging, and laying their own ducting in preparation for install?

Marlow · 02-01-2018 07:28PM

Eir have changed their excess charges now, as it seems: https://www.eir.ie/support/broadband/broadband-usage-allowance/. Just spotted it today. Was still at the old rates before xmas.

Used to be 2.50 EUR for every 10 GB up to maximum of 100 EUR per month.

Now it's 50 EUR incl. VAT for every 10GB up to a maximum of 100 EUR incl VAT per month.

Guess, they're trying to make sure, they get the 100 quid for the ones, that go over the 1TB limit.

/M

MajesticDonkey · 02-01-2018 09:13PM

Marlow wrote: »

Eir have changed their excess charges now, as it seems: https://www.eir.ie/support/broadband/broadband-usage-allowance/. Just spotted it today. Was still at the old rates before xmas.

Used to be 2.50 EUR for every 10 GB up to maximum of 100 EUR per month.

Now it's 50 EUR incl. VAT for every 10GB up to a maximum of 100 EUR incl VAT per month.

Guess, they're trying to make sure, they get the 100 quid for the ones, that go over the 1TB limit.

/M

That's bloody mental

Gonzo · 02-01-2018 10:10PM

Marlow wrote: »

Eir have changed their excess charges now, as it seems: https://www.eir.ie/support/broadband/broadband-usage-allowance/. Just spotted it today. Was still at the old rates before xmas.

Used to be 2.50 EUR for every 10 GB up to maximum of 100 EUR per month.

Now it's 50 EUR incl. VAT for every 10GB up to a maximum of 100 EUR incl VAT per month.

Guess, they're trying to make sure, they get the 100 quid for the ones, that go over the 1TB limit.

/M

that's totally crazy, even if you go over by a few kb's they can now charge you 50 euros. The fact that they have updated the terms and conditions to a potentially worse situation than before makes it seem we are unlikely to see the FUP limit being raised during 2018. Eir will never get rid of the FUP as it is there as a source of extra profit.

Services without limits such as Sky can't come soon enough to OpenEir's FTTH network

fritzelly · 02-01-2018 10:12PM

Grimsvotn wrote: »

The engineer visited the house today and decided no work can be done as a two-man crew is required.

The duct for the phone line seems fine but it isn't possible to install the fibre router on the inside of the wall without some major reconstruction indoors. The engineer suggested we run a new duct from where the existing duct ends and move the fibre cable into a different part of the house.

This all seems to be something that I will have to take upon myself. Has anyone had any experience in buying, digging, and laying their own ducting in preparation for install?

This will help
http://fibrerollout.ie/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Ducting-Guidelines.pdf

garroff · 02-01-2018 10:22PM

Gonzo wrote: »

that's totally crazy, even if you go over by a few kb's they can now charge you 50 euros. The fact that they have updated the terms and conditions to a potentially worse situation than before makes it seem we are unlikely to see the FUP limit being raised during 2018. Eir will never get rid of the FUP as it is there as a source of extra profit.

Services without limits such as Sky can't come soon enough to OpenEir's FTTH network

Eir have changed the terms and conditions. Can I move without penalty?

Gonzo · 02-01-2018 11:29PM

garroff wrote: »

Eir have changed the terms and conditions. Can I move without penalty?

I doubt it, not 100% sure if it's updated in the terms and conditions but it should be as the fair usage policy is part of it. Looking to break a contract because Eir change a detail about the FUP probably wouldn't work, the only time Eir has allowed people to break a contract without penalty is when they raised prices and informed customers that they could leave contact.

fritzelly · 03-01-2018 12:18AM

Nothing's changed as far as the contract is concerned, you're allowed 1TB - anything above that is outside of your contract

03-01-2018 11:32AM

Alan G wrote: »

For all those who don't have new builds and have got FTTH installed to their home... Do you have any photos of the quality of the install externally?

I was thinking about running my own conduit externally before the installer arrives so I don't have any unsightly cables mapping across my walls. What size would you recommend?

Thanks

Pangea · 03-01-2018 02:08PM

Is the GB allowance for the calender month or is it connected to whatever date you first got your broadband connection? i.e mid month etc.

Eir rural FTTH thread

Comments