Most neglected Irish region

Dr_serious2 · 02-01-2018 10:38pm #1

It's evident to me from reading boards that people from several parts of the country feel left behind by successive governments. In fact, I think I have seen people from every region (except South Dublin and the commuter belt) claiming to be the most disadvantaged.

Here in the west we feel somewhat hard done by, although I feel the Midlands has a similar case. Many in Donegal, Waterford and North-Inner City Dublin, amongst others, also feel that they have suffered from a lack of investment.

So which part of the country has been forgotten by the elites in Dublin?

blanch152 · 02-01-2018 10:47pm

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

It's evident to me from reading boards that people from several parts of the country feel left behind by successive governments. In fact, I think I have seen people from every region (except South Dublin and the commuter belt) claiming to be the most disadvantaged.

Here in the west we feel somewhat hard done by, although I feel the Midlands has a similar case. Many in Donegal, Waterford and North-Inner City Dublin, amongst others, also feel that they have suffered from a lack of investment.

So which part of the country has been forgotten by the elites in Dublin?

None.

There is a worldwide trend of urbanisation which is being repeated on a smaller, slower scale in Ireland. That explains the belief that people are being left behind in rural Ireland. Trying to stop it is being a modern day Canute.

Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.

Charles Babbage · 02-01-2018 10:49pm

Donegal, of course. And many people support the British continuing to occupy the neighbouring counties and continuing to cut it off.

LeinsterDub · 02-01-2018 11:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

.
Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will.

Is there any actual evidence of this?

blanch152 · 02-01-2018 11:54pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is there any actual evidence of this?

Here is one piece of Swedish research which shows a positive correlation.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/138826271501700302

Finland:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mikko_Niemelae/publication/28365089_Intergenerational_transmission_of_poverty_in_Finland_in_the_1990s/links/02e7e53564416ba4d2000000.pdf

From an Australian study:

https://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/publications-articles/research-publications/social-policy-research-paper-series/number-31-intergenerational-reliance-on-income-support-psychosocial-factors-and-their-measurement?HTML

"There is substantial evidence for the intergenerational transmission of reliance on income support"

In the UK

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/poverty/downloads/keyofficialdocuments/CONDEM%20-poverty-report.pdf

"For example, experiencing income poverty as a child is associated with increased risk of educational under-achievement and unemployment later in life"

So what about Ireland? Both NESC and ESRI reports have referenced the dangers of inter-generational social welfare dependency, so yes I would say there is plenty of evidence for my statement..

LeinsterDub · 03-01-2018 12:05am

blanch152 wrote: »

Here is one piece of Swedish research which shows a positive correlation.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/138826271501700302

Finland:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mikko_Niemelae/publication/28365089_Intergenerational_transmission_of_poverty_in_Finland_in_the_1990s/links/02e7e53564416ba4d2000000.pdf

From an Australian study:

https://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/publications-articles/research-publications/social-policy-research-paper-series/number-31-intergenerational-reliance-on-income-support-psychosocial-factors-and-their-measurement?HTML

"There is substantial evidence for the intergenerational transmission of reliance on income support"

In the UK

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/poverty/downloads/keyofficialdocuments/CONDEM%20-poverty-report.pdf

"For example, experiencing income poverty as a child is associated with increased risk of educational under-achievement and unemployment later in life"

So what about Ireland? Both NESC and ESRI reports have referenced the dangers of inter-generational social welfare dependency, so yes I would say there is plenty of evidence for my statement..

Unfortunately you've provided evidence that social welfare dependency is a thing. I was never disputing that. You claimed they never works and never will. I wanted to see evidence of that claim and how extensive it.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 12:12am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Unfortunately you've provided evidence that social welfare dependency is a thing. I was never disputing that. You claimed they never works and never will. I wanted to see evidence of that claim and how extensive it.

No, I have provided evidence that social welfare dependency is inter-generational which was my main original point. The conclusion that some of them will never work fits the research.

Dr_serious2 · 03-01-2018 1:08am

blanch152 wrote: »

None.

There is a worldwide trend of urbanisation which is being repeated on a smaller, slower scale in Ireland. That explains the belief that people are being left behind in rural Ireland. Trying to stop it is being a modern day Canute.

Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.

Surely as Irish people we have a responsibility to each other though? Some regions may not be as productive economically as the capital city (as happens in every country) and will never be in all likelihood but I would hope that Irish people have an interest in growing the population (and the economy) outside Dublin and its surrounding counties. We have a nice mixture or rural and urban in this country and long may it continue, it would be a sad day that we turned into a purely urban society. Where would the metropolitan elites keep their second homes then?

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 1:17am

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Surely as Irish people we have a responsibility to each other though? Some regions may not be as productive economically as the capital city (as happens in every country) and will never be in all likelihood but I would hope that Irish people have an interest in growing the population (and the economy) outside Dublin and its surrounding counties. We have a nice mixture or rural and urban in this country and long may it continue, it would be a sad day that we turned into a purely urban society. Where would the metropolitan elites keep their second homes then?

The mixture of rural and urban is doomed, other countries have shown this.

What we need to do is balance Dublin with other cities - Cork and Limerick mostly, with a nod to Galway and Waterford, though I hear Sligo are muscling in on the 2040 strategy.

Dr_serious2 · 03-01-2018 1:27am

blanch152 wrote: »

The mixture of rural and urban is doomed, other countries have shown this.

What we need to do is balance Dublin with other cities - Cork and Limerick mostly, with a nod to Galway and Waterford, though I hear Sligo are muscling in on the 2040 strategy.

What countries are already showing us that rural living is doomed?

Doltanian · 03-01-2018 4:25am

Longford would be the poorest county in my opinion, I drove into a farm yard there around ten years ago looking for directions and the poverty I saw absolutely frightened me. I just hope they are doing better now up there. Donegal and Monaghan would be poor enough also.

NIMAN · 03-01-2018 6:24am

Since I live there, I'd say donegal. But I'm sure other parts of the country will claim they are more neglected.

The lack of infrastructure, jobs investment up here is shocking IMHO.

murphaph · 03-01-2018 11:49am

I'm going to say Dublin, given its population and importance to the national economy. Shocking lack of infrastructure even compared to regional UK cities like Glasgow or Manchester.

seamus · 03-01-2018 12:03pm

The claim that the rest of the country is being left behind by "Dublin elites" is without any real basis. Money flows out of Dublin to the rest of the country. Dublin gets all the best stuff because that's where a quarter of the population live and about a 3rd of the GDP is generated.

It's far cheaper per capita to provide services where people are densely packed. This is why Dublin has a lot of public transport and rural Donegal does not. It's not because rural Donegal has been "forgotten", it's because the cost of providing public transport at the same density and regularity as Dublin, does not justify the return. Exactly the same applies for roads, telephony, retail, etc etc.

The one thing that's missing is intelligent thought on how to change this trend - how to increase population densities outside of Dublin to justify improved infrastructure. There's a chicken-and-egg element to some of these (i.e. improve broadband infrastructure to rural areas and more people can work remotely), but others are more straightforward - e.g. putting dual carriageways all over Donegal won't suddenly make people and businesses want to locate there.

Harry Palmr · 03-01-2018 12:09pm

There are stats for investment on a regional basis to be dug out of the CSO I expect.

Obviously every region believes itself uniquely put upon.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 1:34pm

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

What countries are already showing us that rural living is doomed?

All of them.

https://morphocode.com/global-trends-urbanisation/

"The expected increase in urban land cover during the first three decades of the 21st century will be greater than the cumulative urban expansion in all of human history"

http://www.unesco.org/education/tlsf/mods/theme_c/popups/mod13t01s009.html

"The movement of people towards cities has accelerated in the past 40 years, particularly in the less-developed regions, and the share of the global population living in urban areas has increased from one third in 1960 to 47% (2.8 billion people) in 1999. The world’s urban population is now growing by 60 million persons per year, about three times the increase in the rural population."

https://www.eea.europa.eu/media/speeches/urbanisation-in-europe-limits-to-spatial-growth

In a 2008 speech, the EEA said "From 72% today, around 80 % of Europeans will be living in urban areas by 2020; in several countries the proportion will be 90 % or more."

Why is this happening? As another poster put it, living in rural communities is expensive. If Ireland is to remain competitive for international investment, we must improve our cities, not just Dublin (where public transport investment should be the number one priority) but building up Cork and Limerick and putting in public transport and other infrastructure ahead of its time.

dinorebel · 03-01-2018 1:38pm

seamus wrote: »

The claim that the rest of the country is being left behind by "Dublin elites" is without any real basis. Money flows out of Dublin to the rest of the country. Dublin gets all the best stuff because that's where a quarter of the population live and about a 3rd of the GDP is generated.

It's far cheaper per capita to provide services where people are densely packed. This is why Dublin has a lot of public transport and rural Donegal does not. It's not because rural Donegal has been "forgotten", it's because the cost of providing public transport at the same density and regularity as Dublin, does not justify the return. Exactly the same applies for roads, telephony, retail, etc etc.

The one thing that's missing is intelligent thought on how to change this trend - how to increase population densities outside of Dublin to justify improved infrastructure. There's a chicken-and-egg element to some of these (i.e. improve broadband infrastructure to rural areas and more people can work remotely), but others are more straightforward - e.g. putting dual carriageways all over Donegal won't suddenly make people and businesses want to locate there.

No but a decent Dual Carriageway into Donegal might.

testaccount123 · 03-01-2018 1:39pm

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Surely as Irish people we have a responsibility to each other though?

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 1:46pm

dinorebel wrote: »

No but a decent Dual Carriageway into Donegal might.

How would that work?

realdanbreen · 03-01-2018 1:50pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

Are you for real? The only people that urban dwellers subsidise are builders and developers by paying over the top for houses and apartments. Oh hang on ye also pay more for house insurance, car insurance, more for drink, rent, all services and the most hilarious thing................ye think that ye are smarter than us!

dinorebel · 03-01-2018 1:57pm

blanch152 wrote: »

How would that work?

By shortening the travel time from Dublin to Donegal especially Letterkenny.

murphaph · 03-01-2018 2:27pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Are you for real? The only people that urban dwellers subsidise are builders and developers by paying over the top for houses and apartments. Oh hang on ye also pay more for house insurance, car insurance, more for drink, rent, all services and the most hilarious thing................ye think that ye are smarter than us!

And you don't know what social transfers are.

LeinsterDub · 03-01-2018 2:29pm

dinorebel wrote: »

By shortening the travel time from Dublin to Donegal especially Letterkenny.

Then what ? Building random roads isn't going to help.

Dr_serious2 · 03-01-2018 2:32pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

Maybe so, but we are all Irish and we have an obligation to one another I would think. Rich people everywhere subsidise poorer people. Sometimes this means urban people subsidise rural areas. Donnybrook subsidises Ballymun as well. What would the alternative be? Everyone move to four cities around the country and leave the rest of the country deserted?

testaccount123 · 03-01-2018 2:32pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Are you for real? The only people that urban dwellers subsidise are builders and developers by paying over the top for houses and apartments. Oh hang on ye also pay more for house insurance, car insurance, more for drink, rent, all services and the most hilarious thing................ye think that ye are smarter than us!

Oh and one more thing - the rural dwellers in question are often entirely unaware that their lifestyle is subsidised by the urban segment of the populace.

Panrich · 03-01-2018 2:43pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

The urban centres have been a magnet for the rural population. The largest amount of jobs and educational opportunities are located there.

However it is not a parasitic relationship in that the constant extra supply of readymade mobile Irish labour is required to keep the cities ticking over and generating the revenues that then get dispersed back to the whole population.

realdanbreen · 03-01-2018 2:44pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Oh and one more thing - the rural dwellers in question are often entirely unaware that their lifestyle is subsidised by the urban segment of the populace.

Oh another thing, urban dwellers in this little country shouldn't lose the run of themselves. Any subsidising that does exist comes from the EU. Any internal subsidising that does occur is cancelled out by the high cost of crime and paying guards overtime to try and prevent urban dwellers from killing one another!

testaccount123 · 03-01-2018 2:50pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Oh another thing, urban dwellers in this little country shouldn't lose the run of themselves. Any subsidising that does exist comes from the EU. Any internal subsidising that does occur is cancelled out by the high cost of crime and paying guards overtime to try and prevent urban dwellers from killing one another!

What is this utter nonsense?

jimmycrackcorm · 03-01-2018 2:53pm

seamus wrote:

It's far cheaper per capita to provide services where people are densely packed. This is why Dublin has a lot of public transport and rural Donegal does not. It's not because rural Donegal has been "forgotten", it's because the cost of providing public transport at the same density and regularity as Dublin, does not justify the return. Exactly the same applies for roads, telephony, retail, etc etc.

Except its not just rural Donegal, its basically the whole county as in intra-County travel.

LeinsterDub wrote:

Then what ? Building random roads isn't going to help.

Anyone who has travelled the A5 between Aughnacloy to Strabane or Derry would understand with how this route single handedly is the biggest blocker to development in Donegal.

At least a single strategic route is needed, never mind random roads.

James Brown · 03-01-2018 2:55pm

blanch152 wrote: »

None.

There is a worldwide trend of urbanisation which is being repeated on a smaller, slower scale in Ireland. That explains the belief that people are being left behind in rural Ireland. Trying to stop it is being a modern day Canute.

Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.

This is scandalous. We should put forward or elect public representatives of some sort to tackle this. Maybe one such individual will try make a name rooting out these blaggards?
Or we can do nothing, point to this alleged group for steering national economic policy in the wrong direction despite the valiant equal opportunity led efforts of government :rolleyes:

FYI: It's people becoming dependent on the state due to the direct policies perpetrated by the state that's the problem, not people deciding to sit this one out, (and for some reason authorities allegedly turning a blind eye, if this is to be believed) but hey we need people outside of government to blame for failed government policies right, (the sick, the poor, parties on 2% in the polls)?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 03-01-2018 2:55pm

Tipperary town. You need to see it to believe it.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 4:16pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

This is scandalous. We should put forward or elect public representatives of some sort to tackle this. Maybe one such individual will try make a name rooting out these blaggards?
Or we can do nothing, point to this alleged group for steering national economic policy in the wrong direction despite the valiant equal opportunity led efforts of government :rolleyes:

FYI: It's people becoming dependent on the state due to the direct policies perpetrated by the state that's the problem, not people deciding to sit this one out, (and for some reason authorities allegedly turning a blind eye, if this is to be believed) but hey we need people outside of government to blame for failed government policies right, (the sick, the poor, parties on 2% in the polls)?

I didn't blame the people involved for inter-generational social welfare dependency. Some of it is cultural, some of it is failed government policy and over-generous entitlements, some of it is laziness etc. More research is needed in Ireland to determine the reasons behind it, as my post on the international experience shows.

realdanbreen · 03-01-2018 5:28pm

Urban dwellers in this little country need to get over themselves. If I wish or need to(and that's rarely) I can be in any city in this country within 2 hours. And if I need to visit a proper city like say London I can be there in less time.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 5:32pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Urban dwellers in this little country need to get over themselves. If I wish or need to(and that's rarely) I can be in any city in this country within 2 hours. And if I need to visit a proper city like say London I can be there in less time.

There is an environmental cost to rural living and especially rural commuting that the world can't sustain. If we are to fix climate change, it must be done through sustainable urban living.

realdanbreen · 03-01-2018 5:39pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an environmental cost to rural living and especially rural commuting that the world can't sustain. If we are to fix climate change, it must be done through sustainable urban living.

The topic is about neglected Irish regions and you are relating that neglect to climate change? We could turn off the power in Ireland for a year and leave every vehicle on the side of the road and it wouldn't amount to half a days production in China or India ! Apart from that the gridlock around Dublin on a daily basis is far more damaging than anything happening in rural Ireland.

Charles Babbage · 03-01-2018 5:44pm

blanch152 wrote: »

There is an environmental cost to rural living and especially rural commuting that the world can't sustain. If we are to fix climate change, it must be done through sustainable urban living.

There is an environmental cost to urban living. A rural dweller could have solar panels and a small windmill and be largely energy independent and would use no more water than fell on their own property. The urban dweller will have energy and water shipped from a long distance away.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 5:52pm

Charles Babbage wrote: »

There is an environmental cost to urban living. A rural dweller could have solar panels and a small windmill and be largely energy independent and would use no more water than fell on their own property. The urban dweller will have energy and water shipped from a long distance away.

Unfortunately, unless that rural dweller is living in a self-sustaining manner off the land, doesn't get a postal or telecommunications service, doesn't have a rod to their property and doesn't own any vehicle other than a push-bike, then that simply isn't true.

Now, I am not arguing that city living is currently sustainable but if we are to maintain current world population levels, our only option is sustainable urban living. That means a lot of changes to how we live and work in urban areas, but it means an end to rural living except for those who work on the land.

oscarBravo · 03-01-2018 6:33pm

blanch152 wrote: »

...it means an end to rural living except for those who work on the land.

...and if they want roads, electricity, telecoms, post, medical treatment etc, they can get stuffed. Why should those things be available to someone who chooses to provide the country with food security?

I can't see this thread being any different from all the other stupid threads on this topic. City dwellers will bitch about rural dwellers; rural dwellers will bitch about city dwellers. Some people will claim that it's vitally important that everyone move to the nearest city (or to just one city) as soon as possible, while not bothering to explain how such a thing is anything other than risible in practical terms.

The really annoying thing about these stupid discussions is that we had a perfectly good plan in the NSS back in the day, and what looks like a pretty decent plan in the NPF, to create relatively sustainable (meaning not the disaster we have now, and also not pie-in-the-sky stuff like everyone living in high-rise blocks in one megacity with their own compost heaps) development - but those plans never get implemented, because they're opposed by the megacity advocates on the one hand, and the "every regional town should have a fully-equipped hospital complete with emergency department" on the other.

If we spent less time resentful of everyone who doesn't choose to live exactly like ourselves, and more time working on making the best of what we have, we'd be a better society - but being resentful of others seems to come more easily, so we are where we are.

It's depressing, frankly.

James Brown · 03-01-2018 7:22pm

blanch152 wrote: »

I didn't blame the people involved for inter-generational social welfare dependency. Some of it is cultural, some of it is failed government policy and over-generous entitlements, some of it is laziness etc. More research is needed in Ireland to determine the reasons behind it, as my post on the international experience shows.

You are stating that some people, a large enough amount to effect state progress, are welfare dependent by choice and not necessity?

Yes we do need research into this as some may mistake this alleged anecdotally national level fraud, allegedly, large enough to detrimentally effect the economy, as a reason for the worsening societal crises when it may, god forbid, be poor policy making and we miss it. And were are the Dept. of welfare in all this? Wasn't there a campaign relatively recently?
Generations of the same family fooling the authorities? Fraudulent doctor certs, not being able to find work for decades? How many of these people are there? Certainly warrants investigating before using it anecdotally to 'prove' a viewpoint.

Funny how these problems become worse as we follow the same policies. And how the economy is growing in tandem. I'm sure welfare fraud plays a role but citing it in discussions about failing government/LA policy by region might be a bit of a stretch.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 11:39pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

You are stating that some people, a large enough amount to effect state progress, are welfare dependent by choice and not necessity?

Yes we do need research into this as some may mistake this alleged anecdotally national level fraud, allegedly, large enough to detrimentally effect the economy, as a reason for the worsening societal crises when it may, god forbid, be poor policy making and we miss it. And were are the Dept. of welfare in all this? Wasn't there a campaign relatively recently?
Generations of the same family fooling the authorities? Fraudulent doctor certs, not being able to find work for decades? How many of these people are there? Certainly warrants investigating before using it anecdotally to 'prove' a viewpoint.

Funny how these problems become worse as we follow the same policies. And how the economy is growing in tandem. I'm sure welfare fraud plays a role but citing it in discussions about failing government/LA policy by region might be a bit of a stretch.

How about reading the research I linked to and addressing the points I actually made.

I never said anyone was fooling the authorities nor fraudulent doctor certs etc. Why are you making things up?

03-01-2018 11:48pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Urban dwellers in this little country need to get over themselves. If I wish or need to(and that's rarely) I can be in any city in this country within 2 hours. And if I need to visit a proper city like say London I can be there in less time.

Your fine with it now, and I totally understand that.

But come back to me when you need urgent cardiac care or other similar medical problems.

testaccount123 · 04-01-2018 12:29am

oscarBravo wrote: »

...and if they want roads, electricity, telecoms, post, medical treatment etc, they can get stuffed. Why should those things be available to someone who chooses to provide the country with food security?

Giving the food they produce away free for the good of the country are they?

No. Actually their businesses get massive subsidies too.

realdanbreen · 04-01-2018 9:29am

Topgear on Dave wrote: »

Your fine with it now, and I totally understand that.

But come back to me when you need urgent cardiac care or other similar medical problems.

I can't say that I have ever seen an auctioneer pointing out the close proximity of a specialist cardiac unit as a selling point!

oscarBravo · 04-01-2018 4:29pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Giving the food they produce away free for the good of the country are they?

No. Actually their businesses get massive subsidies too.

So do many urban bus routes.

Like I said: stupid discussion is stupid. If begrudgery was a cash crop, we'd be the richest nation on the planet.

ACD posted a link to an Economist article in another thread, which contained a parable of a man to whom God offered anything he wanted, with the caveat that his neighbour would receive the same but doubled. After much soul-searching, he asked God to remove one of his eyes.

The same attitude prevails in discussions of social housing: it's never a conversation about "what's good for society?" so much as "why should those people get something for nothing?". The same approach has informed past threads about prisons, where some posters unabashedly expressed the view that prisons should be focused on harsh punishment rather than rehabilitation. They genuinely didn't care whether or not this would make society safer; they were prepared to risk their own (and everyone else's) safety, if that was the price for watching criminals suffer.

Yes, rural dwellers get to enjoy advantages that city dwellers don't. Yes, city dwellers get to enjoy advantages that rural dwellers don't. Yes, there's a net transfer of wealth from Dublin to the regions - but transfers of wealth are a feature of society, and wealth transfer happens because it makes for a better society than if it didn't.

blanch152 · 04-01-2018 4:37pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

So do many urban bus routes.

Like I said: stupid discussion is stupid. If begrudgery was a cash crop, we'd be the richest nation on the planet.

ACD posted a link to an Economist article in another thread, which contained a parable of a man to whom God offered anything he wanted, with the caveat that his neighbour would receive the same but doubled. After much soul-searching, he asked God to remove one of his eyes.

The same attitude prevails in discussions of social housing: it's never a conversation about "what's good for society?" so much as "why should those people get something for nothing?". The same approach has informed past threads about prisons, where some posters unabashedly expressed the view that prisons should be focused on harsh punishment rather than rehabilitation. They genuinely didn't care whether or not this would make society safer; they were prepared to risk their own (and everyone else's) safety, if that was the price for watching criminals suffer.

Yes, rural dwellers get to enjoy advantages that city dwellers don't. Yes, city dwellers get to enjoy advantages that rural dwellers don't. Yes, there's a net transfer of wealth from Dublin to the regions - but transfers of wealth are a feature of society, and wealth transfer happens because it makes for a better society than if it didn't.

That isn't the argument, the argument is about sustainability both economically and environmentally.

If Ireland doesn't urbanise and take advantages of the savings in costs, both public and private, then it will lose out in competition for FDI to those countries that do.

If Ireland doesn't eliminate one-off housing and long-distance commuting, then Ireland will never meet climate change targets.

It isn't about begrudgery, it is about building a sustainable future. Hopefully, the forthcoming NDP will have the vision to concentrate development in the cities.

BrokenArrows · 04-01-2018 4:52pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Except its not just rural Donegal, its basically the whole county as in intra-County travel.

Anyone who has travelled the A5 between Aughnacloy to Strabane or Derry would understand with how this route single handedly is the biggest blocker to development in Donegal.

At least a single strategic route is needed, never mind random roads.

Well good luck trying to get the Irish taxpayers to improve a road in another country!!

There needs to be improvements in the road from Galway - Sligo - Letterkenny.

oscarBravo · 04-01-2018 4:53pm

blanch152 wrote: »

If Ireland doesn't eliminate one-off housing and long-distance commuting...

How?

You want to "eliminate one-off housing" - that requires, by definition, that everyone who doesn't live in an urban housing development move to one.

We don't have enough houses for our current population, but you believe that we should abandon a substantial percentage of our existing housing stock and (at a minimum) double the demand for non-existing high-density urban housing?

You can't just say something utterly vacuous like "we should eliminate one-off housing"; it's a triumph of ideology over pragmatism. It's like saying "we should eliminate money" - it's. not. going. to. happen, no matter how strongly you feel it needs to be done.

We've had this discussion before. When asked how we should force people to abandon their one-off homes and move to cities they don't want to live in, you refused to answer. If all you have is an ideology and no idea how to achieve it, what the hell are you contributing other than a sermon?

BrokenArrows · 04-01-2018 5:10pm

oscarBravo wrote: »

How?

You want to "eliminate one-off housing" - that requires, by definition, that everyone who doesn't live in an urban housing development move to one.

No it doesnt.

It means that someone building 1 house on 1 acre of land should be discouraged.

They can build 10 houses on 2 acres which gives everyone plenty of garden space and room but then infrastructure is much simpler.
One road
One bus stop
Post is easier to deliver
Density of houses allows for a community to develop
Broadband and Power are cheaper and easier to install
Sewage and water supply is cheaper and easier to install

The problem with this is that people want to build their own house their own way.

BrokenArrows · 04-01-2018 5:13pm

On the other topic that was raised in the thread about people on long term inter generational welfare. The government needs to just put the matter to bed and release some statistics.

Some basic stats should be very easy to gather.

The below stats should be gathered

1. Total number of people who claimed social welfare.

2. Total number of people on social welfare for greater than 52 weeks throughout their whole life to date.

3. Break this result down into age brackets ie. 18-25, 26-30, 30-35 etc and list the average number of lifetime weeks on social welfare.

When these stats are gathered and you see a low average for all the groups then we know its not a wide spread problem.

If you see a very high average then its obviously a problem.

James Brown · 04-01-2018 5:32pm

blanch152 wrote: »

How about reading the research I linked to and addressing the points I actually made.

I never said anyone was fooling the authorities nor fraudulent doctor certs etc. Why are you making things up?

I asked was it that case you were putting forward and if so how has it been possible.
Based on this, a fair query;

blanch152 wrote: »

.....

Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.

There is a growing dependent class. It's you and I and our neighbours.
Your post read to me like you were accusing a sizable amount of people as purposefully availing of state aid, by choice, hence the question.
I'm suggesting it's more to do with bad policy, home and abroad, creating the public's need to rely on state aid in various forms, all in the goal of profit making, that often doesn't benefit broader society.
This lends itself to regions being neglected for things like broadband because there isn't enough incentive profit wise.

oscarBravo · 04-01-2018 5:34pm

BrokenArrows wrote: »

It means that someone building 1 house on 1 acre of land should be discouraged.

That's not "eliminating"; it's "discouraging", and it has already been largely done: it's orders of magnitude harder to get permission to build a one-off house now than it was a couple of decades ago.

So, if that's all that's required, can we please shut up about it in every single urban/rural thread?

Most neglected Irish region

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