Most neglected Irish region

Dr_serious2 · 02-01-2018 10:38pm #1

It's evident to me from reading boards that people from several parts of the country feel left behind by successive governments. In fact, I think I have seen people from every region (except South Dublin and the commuter belt) claiming to be the most disadvantaged.

Here in the west we feel somewhat hard done by, although I feel the Midlands has a similar case. Many in Donegal, Waterford and North-Inner City Dublin, amongst others, also feel that they have suffered from a lack of investment.

So which part of the country has been forgotten by the elites in Dublin?

blanch152 · 02-01-2018 10:47pm

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

It's evident to me from reading boards that people from several parts of the country feel left behind by successive governments. In fact, I think I have seen people from every region (except South Dublin and the commuter belt) claiming to be the most disadvantaged.

Here in the west we feel somewhat hard done by, although I feel the Midlands has a similar case. Many in Donegal, Waterford and North-Inner City Dublin, amongst others, also feel that they have suffered from a lack of investment.

So which part of the country has been forgotten by the elites in Dublin?

None.

There is a worldwide trend of urbanisation which is being repeated on a smaller, slower scale in Ireland. That explains the belief that people are being left behind in rural Ireland. Trying to stop it is being a modern day Canute.

Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.

Charles Babbage · 02-01-2018 10:49pm

Donegal, of course. And many people support the British continuing to occupy the neighbouring counties and continuing to cut it off.

LeinsterDub · 02-01-2018 11:01pm

blanch152 wrote: »

.
Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will.

Is there any actual evidence of this?

blanch152 · 02-01-2018 11:54pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Is there any actual evidence of this?

Here is one piece of Swedish research which shows a positive correlation.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/138826271501700302

Finland:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mikko_Niemelae/publication/28365089_Intergenerational_transmission_of_poverty_in_Finland_in_the_1990s/links/02e7e53564416ba4d2000000.pdf

From an Australian study:

https://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/publications-articles/research-publications/social-policy-research-paper-series/number-31-intergenerational-reliance-on-income-support-psychosocial-factors-and-their-measurement?HTML

"There is substantial evidence for the intergenerational transmission of reliance on income support"

In the UK

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/poverty/downloads/keyofficialdocuments/CONDEM%20-poverty-report.pdf

"For example, experiencing income poverty as a child is associated with increased risk of educational under-achievement and unemployment later in life"

So what about Ireland? Both NESC and ESRI reports have referenced the dangers of inter-generational social welfare dependency, so yes I would say there is plenty of evidence for my statement..

LeinsterDub · 03-01-2018 12:05am

blanch152 wrote: »

Here is one piece of Swedish research which shows a positive correlation.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/138826271501700302

Finland:

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Mikko_Niemelae/publication/28365089_Intergenerational_transmission_of_poverty_in_Finland_in_the_1990s/links/02e7e53564416ba4d2000000.pdf

From an Australian study:

https://www.dss.gov.au/about-the-department/publications-articles/research-publications/social-policy-research-paper-series/number-31-intergenerational-reliance-on-income-support-psychosocial-factors-and-their-measurement?HTML

"There is substantial evidence for the intergenerational transmission of reliance on income support"

In the UK

https://www.bristol.ac.uk/poverty/downloads/keyofficialdocuments/CONDEM%20-poverty-report.pdf

"For example, experiencing income poverty as a child is associated with increased risk of educational under-achievement and unemployment later in life"

So what about Ireland? Both NESC and ESRI reports have referenced the dangers of inter-generational social welfare dependency, so yes I would say there is plenty of evidence for my statement..

Unfortunately you've provided evidence that social welfare dependency is a thing. I was never disputing that. You claimed they never works and never will. I wanted to see evidence of that claim and how extensive it.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 12:12am

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Unfortunately you've provided evidence that social welfare dependency is a thing. I was never disputing that. You claimed they never works and never will. I wanted to see evidence of that claim and how extensive it.

No, I have provided evidence that social welfare dependency is inter-generational which was my main original point. The conclusion that some of them will never work fits the research.

Dr_serious2 · 03-01-2018 1:08am

blanch152 wrote: »

None.

There is a worldwide trend of urbanisation which is being repeated on a smaller, slower scale in Ireland. That explains the belief that people are being left behind in rural Ireland. Trying to stop it is being a modern day Canute.

Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.

Surely as Irish people we have a responsibility to each other though? Some regions may not be as productive economically as the capital city (as happens in every country) and will never be in all likelihood but I would hope that Irish people have an interest in growing the population (and the economy) outside Dublin and its surrounding counties. We have a nice mixture or rural and urban in this country and long may it continue, it would be a sad day that we turned into a purely urban society. Where would the metropolitan elites keep their second homes then?

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 1:17am

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Surely as Irish people we have a responsibility to each other though? Some regions may not be as productive economically as the capital city (as happens in every country) and will never be in all likelihood but I would hope that Irish people have an interest in growing the population (and the economy) outside Dublin and its surrounding counties. We have a nice mixture or rural and urban in this country and long may it continue, it would be a sad day that we turned into a purely urban society. Where would the metropolitan elites keep their second homes then?

The mixture of rural and urban is doomed, other countries have shown this.

What we need to do is balance Dublin with other cities - Cork and Limerick mostly, with a nod to Galway and Waterford, though I hear Sligo are muscling in on the 2040 strategy.

Dr_serious2 · 03-01-2018 1:27am

blanch152 wrote: »

The mixture of rural and urban is doomed, other countries have shown this.

What we need to do is balance Dublin with other cities - Cork and Limerick mostly, with a nod to Galway and Waterford, though I hear Sligo are muscling in on the 2040 strategy.

What countries are already showing us that rural living is doomed?

Doltanian · 03-01-2018 4:25am

Longford would be the poorest county in my opinion, I drove into a farm yard there around ten years ago looking for directions and the poverty I saw absolutely frightened me. I just hope they are doing better now up there. Donegal and Monaghan would be poor enough also.

NIMAN · 03-01-2018 6:24am

Since I live there, I'd say donegal. But I'm sure other parts of the country will claim they are more neglected.

The lack of infrastructure, jobs investment up here is shocking IMHO.

murphaph · 03-01-2018 11:49am

I'm going to say Dublin, given its population and importance to the national economy. Shocking lack of infrastructure even compared to regional UK cities like Glasgow or Manchester.

seamus · 03-01-2018 12:03pm

The claim that the rest of the country is being left behind by "Dublin elites" is without any real basis. Money flows out of Dublin to the rest of the country. Dublin gets all the best stuff because that's where a quarter of the population live and about a 3rd of the GDP is generated.

It's far cheaper per capita to provide services where people are densely packed. This is why Dublin has a lot of public transport and rural Donegal does not. It's not because rural Donegal has been "forgotten", it's because the cost of providing public transport at the same density and regularity as Dublin, does not justify the return. Exactly the same applies for roads, telephony, retail, etc etc.

The one thing that's missing is intelligent thought on how to change this trend - how to increase population densities outside of Dublin to justify improved infrastructure. There's a chicken-and-egg element to some of these (i.e. improve broadband infrastructure to rural areas and more people can work remotely), but others are more straightforward - e.g. putting dual carriageways all over Donegal won't suddenly make people and businesses want to locate there.

Harry Palmr · 03-01-2018 12:09pm

There are stats for investment on a regional basis to be dug out of the CSO I expect.

Obviously every region believes itself uniquely put upon.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 1:34pm

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

What countries are already showing us that rural living is doomed?

All of them.

https://morphocode.com/global-trends-urbanisation/

"The expected increase in urban land cover during the first three decades of the 21st century will be greater than the cumulative urban expansion in all of human history"

http://www.unesco.org/education/tlsf/mods/theme_c/popups/mod13t01s009.html

"The movement of people towards cities has accelerated in the past 40 years, particularly in the less-developed regions, and the share of the global population living in urban areas has increased from one third in 1960 to 47% (2.8 billion people) in 1999. The world’s urban population is now growing by 60 million persons per year, about three times the increase in the rural population."

https://www.eea.europa.eu/media/speeches/urbanisation-in-europe-limits-to-spatial-growth

In a 2008 speech, the EEA said "From 72% today, around 80 % of Europeans will be living in urban areas by 2020; in several countries the proportion will be 90 % or more."

Why is this happening? As another poster put it, living in rural communities is expensive. If Ireland is to remain competitive for international investment, we must improve our cities, not just Dublin (where public transport investment should be the number one priority) but building up Cork and Limerick and putting in public transport and other infrastructure ahead of its time.

dinorebel · 03-01-2018 1:38pm

seamus wrote: »

The claim that the rest of the country is being left behind by "Dublin elites" is without any real basis. Money flows out of Dublin to the rest of the country. Dublin gets all the best stuff because that's where a quarter of the population live and about a 3rd of the GDP is generated.

It's far cheaper per capita to provide services where people are densely packed. This is why Dublin has a lot of public transport and rural Donegal does not. It's not because rural Donegal has been "forgotten", it's because the cost of providing public transport at the same density and regularity as Dublin, does not justify the return. Exactly the same applies for roads, telephony, retail, etc etc.

The one thing that's missing is intelligent thought on how to change this trend - how to increase population densities outside of Dublin to justify improved infrastructure. There's a chicken-and-egg element to some of these (i.e. improve broadband infrastructure to rural areas and more people can work remotely), but others are more straightforward - e.g. putting dual carriageways all over Donegal won't suddenly make people and businesses want to locate there.

No but a decent Dual Carriageway into Donegal might.

testaccount123 · 03-01-2018 1:39pm

Dr_serious2 wrote: »

Surely as Irish people we have a responsibility to each other though?

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

blanch152 · 03-01-2018 1:46pm

dinorebel wrote: »

No but a decent Dual Carriageway into Donegal might.

How would that work?

realdanbreen · 03-01-2018 1:50pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

Are you for real? The only people that urban dwellers subsidise are builders and developers by paying over the top for houses and apartments. Oh hang on ye also pay more for house insurance, car insurance, more for drink, rent, all services and the most hilarious thing................ye think that ye are smarter than us!

dinorebel · 03-01-2018 1:57pm

blanch152 wrote: »

How would that work?

By shortening the travel time from Dublin to Donegal especially Letterkenny.

murphaph · 03-01-2018 2:27pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Are you for real? The only people that urban dwellers subsidise are builders and developers by paying over the top for houses and apartments. Oh hang on ye also pay more for house insurance, car insurance, more for drink, rent, all services and the most hilarious thing................ye think that ye are smarter than us!

And you don't know what social transfers are.

LeinsterDub · 03-01-2018 2:29pm

dinorebel wrote: »

By shortening the travel time from Dublin to Donegal especially Letterkenny.

Then what ? Building random roads isn't going to help.

Dr_serious2 · 03-01-2018 2:32pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

Maybe so, but we are all Irish and we have an obligation to one another I would think. Rich people everywhere subsidise poorer people. Sometimes this means urban people subsidise rural areas. Donnybrook subsidises Ballymun as well. What would the alternative be? Everyone move to four cities around the country and leave the rest of the country deserted?

testaccount123 · 03-01-2018 2:32pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Are you for real? The only people that urban dwellers subsidise are builders and developers by paying over the top for houses and apartments. Oh hang on ye also pay more for house insurance, car insurance, more for drink, rent, all services and the most hilarious thing................ye think that ye are smarter than us!

Oh and one more thing - the rural dwellers in question are often entirely unaware that their lifestyle is subsidised by the urban segment of the populace.

Panrich · 03-01-2018 2:43pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Urban dwellers already massively subsidise the rural regions, only to hear constant complaining from those regions that it isnt enough and they want more.

Its infuriating and unsustainable.

The urban centres have been a magnet for the rural population. The largest amount of jobs and educational opportunities are located there.

However it is not a parasitic relationship in that the constant extra supply of readymade mobile Irish labour is required to keep the cities ticking over and generating the revenues that then get dispersed back to the whole population.

realdanbreen · 03-01-2018 2:44pm

testaccount123 wrote: »

Oh and one more thing - the rural dwellers in question are often entirely unaware that their lifestyle is subsidised by the urban segment of the populace.

Oh another thing, urban dwellers in this little country shouldn't lose the run of themselves. Any subsidising that does exist comes from the EU. Any internal subsidising that does occur is cancelled out by the high cost of crime and paying guards overtime to try and prevent urban dwellers from killing one another!

testaccount123 · 03-01-2018 2:50pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Oh another thing, urban dwellers in this little country shouldn't lose the run of themselves. Any subsidising that does exist comes from the EU. Any internal subsidising that does occur is cancelled out by the high cost of crime and paying guards overtime to try and prevent urban dwellers from killing one another!

What is this utter nonsense?

jimmycrackcorm · 03-01-2018 2:53pm

seamus wrote:

It's far cheaper per capita to provide services where people are densely packed. This is why Dublin has a lot of public transport and rural Donegal does not. It's not because rural Donegal has been "forgotten", it's because the cost of providing public transport at the same density and regularity as Dublin, does not justify the return. Exactly the same applies for roads, telephony, retail, etc etc.

Except its not just rural Donegal, its basically the whole county as in intra-County travel.

LeinsterDub wrote:

Then what ? Building random roads isn't going to help.

Anyone who has travelled the A5 between Aughnacloy to Strabane or Derry would understand with how this route single handedly is the biggest blocker to development in Donegal.

At least a single strategic route is needed, never mind random roads.

James Brown · 03-01-2018 2:55pm

blanch152 wrote: »

None.

There is a worldwide trend of urbanisation which is being repeated on a smaller, slower scale in Ireland. That explains the belief that people are being left behind in rural Ireland. Trying to stop it is being a modern day Canute.

Within Western democracies there is a growing dependent class who know no life for several generations other than social welfare handouts. They have never worked and many of them never will. Places like North-Inner City contain higher numbers of these people. That explains the reasons they claim to have suffered.

This is scandalous. We should put forward or elect public representatives of some sort to tackle this. Maybe one such individual will try make a name rooting out these blaggards?
Or we can do nothing, point to this alleged group for steering national economic policy in the wrong direction despite the valiant equal opportunity led efforts of government :rolleyes:

FYI: It's people becoming dependent on the state due to the direct policies perpetrated by the state that's the problem, not people deciding to sit this one out, (and for some reason authorities allegedly turning a blind eye, if this is to be believed) but hey we need people outside of government to blame for failed government policies right, (the sick, the poor, parties on 2% in the polls)?

MEGA BRO WOLF 5000 · 03-01-2018 2:55pm

Tipperary town. You need to see it to believe it.

Most neglected Irish region

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