Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Should there be a call out charge for mountain rescue?

Options
2

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Mountain rescue / search dog teams etc. in many other countries are government funded and staffed by full-time paid staff, unlike the situation in Ireland and the UK. I'm not sure how that influences the reasoning behind charging, if at all though.


  • Options
    #33
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,523 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    The point on people not calling is well made.

    Nonetheless, there are certain times that are high risk compared to others. If there is a national weather warning, for example, then a call out charge possibly should apply.


  • Options
    #34
    Tombo2001
    Registered Users Posts: 6,523 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    CardinalJ wrote: »
    Are you talking about €100 AnE charge, medication from a pharmacy etc? I'm talking about full cost of emergency hospitalisation. You don't pay every single associated cost with health care. So you're not paying for each pair of gloves a Dr uses or for your anaesthetic etc.

    I know some of the thinking behind the A&E fee was to get people to go to their GP instead of clogging up A&E, but I dont thing Mountain Rescue teams are being used/abused in the same way

    Of course its not comparable.

    But 4 rescues in 4 days on Carauntoohill is costing a lot. Plus its a high risk occupation for the Mountain Rescue team.


  • Options
    #35
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,942 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    [Deleted User] wrote: »
    After paying for every element when I tore cartilage hiking, from AnE to the physio to the scan to the medication (but avoiding the charge for an operation as while I had no insurance, turned out no op was needed), I'm curious.

    Who else should/would have paid for me?

    Compare your costs to a similar injury in the US to see how much is covered. A trip to the emergency department can run to several thousand there.


  • Options
    #36
    mickdw
    Registered Users Posts: 23,298 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    I believe where people ignore safety advice and warnings, then they should be invoiced the full cost of providing a rescue.
    The people who went swimming during the hurricane in galway for example.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    CardinalJ wrote: »
    Are you talking about €100 AnE charge, medication from a pharmacy etc? I'm talking about full cost of emergency hospitalisation. You don't pay every single associated cost with health care.

    But I'm also not talking about the full cost of the rescue, but a contribution towards it. Like the AnE charge. The HSE has a charge for pretty much everything, which is completely understandable, the only issue is who pays that charge, individual, taxpayer or insurance company.

    I wonder have any studies been done in any country to find out the effects of a potential charge. It is, presumably, a more acute issue in countries with more dangerous terrain or weather, or greater numbers using the outdoors.


  • Options
    #38
    CardinalJ
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭CardinalJ


    Tombo2001 wrote:
    But 4 rescues in 4 days on Carauntoohill is costing a lot. Plus its a high risk occupation for the Mountain Rescue team.

    It certainly is a lot but it's a busy time of year. People have time off.

    The RNLI costs a lot, Coast Guard costs a lot, Gardai cost a lot. They don't bill you. The fire brigade do, up to €10/minute to attend RTAs where an insurer is paying, this cost literally does stop people calling them, it doesn't stop the accidents/fires.

    I'm not talking down the work they do but a charge wont stop people getting hurt, but it might stop people calling them.

    And again, to my knowledge literally no mountain rescue teams are calling for a charge to be introduced.


  • Options
    #39
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Nonetheless, there are certain times that are high risk compared to others. If there is a national weather warning, for example, then a call out charge possibly should apply.
    mickdw wrote: »
    I believe where people ignore safety advice and warnings, then they should be invoiced the full cost of providing a rescue.
    The people who went swimming during the hurricane in galway for example.

    Ah yes, but just who decides what, when and where on the nature of this 'safety advice'????????????????? Social media, Joe Duffy?


  • Options
    #40
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Compare your costs to a similar injury in the US to see how much is covered. A trip to the emergency department can run to several thousand there.

    The HSE also has enormous costs. It is not a voluntary service. Those costs are picked up by individuals and the State. The difference with the US is who pays, not that there are no charges here.


  • Options
    #41
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    But 4 rescues in 4 days on Carauntoohill is costing a lot.
    Is it? The MRT's give their time voluntarily, they're not paid, and AFAIK the CG helicopters if needed are on a fixed contract, it costs the taxpayer the same if they're deployed or not.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Alun
    Registered Users Posts: 21,436 ✭✭✭✭Alun


    CardinalJ wrote: »
    I'm not talking down the work they do but a charge wont stop people getting hurt, but it might stop people calling them.
    I heard today of a callout where a man's wife had called MR because her husband was late coming down off the hills. In the end it was called off before the team even got to the location because he turned up, albeit much later than expected. Would she have waited if she thought it might mean a €500 charge, and have meant that if her husband really was hurt his rescue would have been delayed, with possibly serious consequences?
    And again, to my knowledge literally no mountain rescue teams are calling for a charge to be introduced.
    Exactly. It seems some people are getting outraged on their behalf, without asking them first what they think.


  • Options
    #43
    CardinalJ
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭CardinalJ


    Alun wrote:
    I heard today of a callout where a man's wife had called MR because her husband was late coming down off the hills. In the end it was called off before the team even got to the location because he turned up, albeit much later than expected. Would she have waited if she thought it might mean a €500 charge, and have meant that if her husband really was hurt his rescue would have been delayed, with possibly serious consequences?

    Exactly the point I'm making. May have worded it poorly.


  • Options
    #44
    Harika
    Registered Users Posts: 4,412 ✭✭✭Harika


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    You can end up paying to be rescued in places like the Alps, depending on who comes out as far as I know. And most walkers/ climbers going there are best advised to have rescue insurance etc.

    That's true. It depends if an ambulance can come or if an helicopter needs to be send. Ambulance is free but for an helicopter you have to pay and depending on who is coming it will cost between 2000 and 4000 Euro. The decision is made when you call the emergency line as they have a tool to decide what to send based on location and emergency. You get away for free if the emergency would also happened down in the valley, so e.g. for a stroke you won't pay, for a broken ankle you will. Without a specific insurance, that covers accidents here, it can be quite expensive.


  • Options
    #45
    acorn
    Registered Users Posts: 117 ✭✭acorn


    Do you think that if there was one marked trail up Carrauntoohil it would at least reduce the number of incidents in that area ?


  • Options
    #46
    boombang
    Registered Users Posts: 2,108 ✭✭✭boombang


    acorn wrote: »
    Do you think that if there was one marked trail up Carrauntoohil it would at least reduce the number of incidents in that area ?

    Good question. I did it this autumn and was amazed by the lack of a marked trail. I had thought was it something deliberate in order to ensure a market for paid guides to accompany walkers, but maybe that's assuming the worst about people.

    What difference would it make in snowy conditions?


  • Options
    #47
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    boombang wrote: »
    Good question. I did it this autumn and was amazed by the lack of a marked trail. I had thought was it something deliberate in order to ensure a market for paid guides to accompany walkers, but maybe that's assuming the worst about people.

    What difference would it make in snowy conditions?

    There is a marked loop around the Hag's Glen, and the Kerry Way passes over the ridge leading up from The Bridia Valley.

    The entire area is private property, albeit one in which access is rarely an issue, but presume the farmers might not all be agreeable to the thought of markers pretty much inviting people to travel further into their lands.


  • Options
    #48
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    acorn wrote: »
    Do you think that if there was one marked trail up Carrauntoohil it would at least reduce the number of incidents in that area ?

    No, that would be completely anathema to the spirit of hill walking in Ireland. We don't have high mountains, we have hills and it behoves those who wish to visit them to learn the basic skills of looking after themselves.

    People these days increasingly look for shortcuts, the easy way to do something. They want their hands held. There is a place for that and in terms of walking, it lies in the low level signposted trails of which there are many to choose from.

    But if people want to visit the higher hills of Ireland, then learn the basic skills and learn to look after yourself. Failing that, go with others who are experienced. No need to pay a guide, plenty of hillwalkers out there who have the necessary experience.


  • Options
    #49
    EmptyTree
    Registered Users Posts: 748 ✭✭✭EmptyTree


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    acorn wrote: »
    Do you think that if there was one marked trail up Carrauntoohil it would at least reduce the number of incidents in that area ?

    No, that would be completely anathema to the spirit of hill walking in Ireland.....

    I have to say that initially I did think acorn's post was a good idea, but after reading BarryD2's post I wonder would a marked trail make Carrauntoohil more inviting to less experienced walkers and in fact be counterproductive.

    Anyway, back on topic: this thread did make me think of a recent incident where a group were out just before a major storm here. On lookers became concerned and called the authorities. The group made their way back safely (without any help or ever needing any help) and the "rescue" was stood down. Would a charge be proposed in this instance??


  • Options
    #50
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    No, that would be completely anathema to the spirit of hill walking in Ireland.
    There seems to be an awful lot of self-appointed guardians of hillwalking and Irish mountains. It smells of elitism to me.

    We are unique in Europe in not having well built paths and signposts, which would open up Irish hills and mountains to people who are not navigation experts. It would be good for the country to get more people out walking, and there are plenty of obscure mountains left over for the elitists.

    There's no reason why a popular climb like Carrauntoohil shouldn't have a clear path with signposting, which would cut down on the numbers of calls to MR because people get lost.


  • Options
    #51
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    You want a waymarked and maintained footpath up Carrauntoohil?

    Have you ever been up? I think not.

    Nobody who has been up in recent years would be suggesting a footpath and to be quite honest, it’s a stupid suggestion that everyone should be encouraged to go up there without navigation skills.

    You’re not actually an experienced hillwalker yourself, are you? You sound more like the people MRT’s end up out looking for!


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    hmmm wrote:
    There's no reason why a popular climb like Carrauntoohil shouldn't have a clear path with signposting, which would cut down on the numbers of calls to MR because people get lost.


    Strangely, could actually have the opposite effect


  • Options
    #53
    CardinalJ
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭CardinalJ


    hmmm wrote:
    We are unique in Europe in not having well built paths and signposts, which would open up Irish hills and mountains to people who are not navigation experts. It would be good for the country to get more people out walking, and there are plenty of obscure mountains left over for the elitists.

    Carrauntoohill literally has signage saying 'tourists route'.... You would also want to be blind not to be able to make your way to the top in good, clear weather. The reality is that the mountain frequently has snow, cloud etc and if visibility is down to 5/10m a marked trail is no good. Also any marked trail that frequently ruins a mountain.

    It's not elitist to suggest this. It ruins any feeling of isolation, achievement and being out in nature.

    We also have no laws that protect landowners or the people who initially mark out the trails. When someone falls and hurts themselves then who is sued? We are unique in a whole host of ways to most other countries in Europe.


  • Options
    #54
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Wanderer78 wrote: »
    Strangely, could actually have the opposite effect
    It could I agree, but it's the standard in the rest of Europe - in countries which have far bigger and more dangerous mountains than we have. People without navigation skills are going to climb Carrauntoohil irrespective of whether there is a path or not.

    As for the suggestion that people can use the lower level marked paths, there is only one answer to that - no-one gives a proverbial about the lower level paths, they want to get to the top of the mountains.


  • Options
    #55
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    CardinalJ wrote: »
    Carrauntoohill literally has signage saying 'tourists route'.... You would also want to be blind not to be able to make your way to the top in good, clear weather. The reality is that the mountain frequently has snow, cloud etc and if visibility is down to 5/10m a marked trail is no good. Also any marked trail that frequently ruins a mountain.
    If you've ever walked in the Alps, you'll know that there are several simple ways they mark a path which can be followed even in deep snow.


  • Options
    #56
    CardinalJ
    Registered Users Posts: 1,303 ✭✭✭CardinalJ


    hmmm wrote:
    If you've ever walked in the Alps, you'll know that there are several simple ways they mark a path which can be followed even in deep snow.

    I've hiked a lot in Switzerland. Do you really want big wooden poles all over irish mountains, also are they up all the time/all winter? Carrauntoohill just doesnt need it.

    The wicklow way is a perfect example of a marked trail. I think an alpine type marked trail up carrauntoohill would be over kill.


  • Options
    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 3,637 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    hmmm wrote: »
    If you've ever walked in the Alps, you'll know that there are several simple ways they mark a path which can be followed even in deep snow.

    I'm well aware of that. As would anyone who's been there on a package ski holiday. It's otherwise entirely irrelevant to the subject and the example you brought forward.

    So, my point remains. You haven't actually been up Carrauntoohil, have you? If so, what route do you suggest they waymark so tourists can follow signs and make it safely to the top and back, in any weather system that descends on the Reeks?

    Go on, expert.


  • Options
    #58
    Wanderer78
    Registered Users Posts: 28,964 ✭✭✭✭Wanderer78


    hmmm wrote:
    As for the suggestion that people can use the lower level marked paths, there is only one answer to that - no-one gives a proverbial about the lower level paths, they want to get to the top of the mountains.


    Not necessarily, low level walks are popular enough in Ireland, I've done a few, and I know plenty of others that have done to. At this stage I think I'd rather them, they are safer than high level, particularly when walking alone. Some low level walks are resonably well maintained compared to some higher level walks. I do suspect the reason why many of the marked ways were kept at low level for these reasons, I.e. keep walkers safe and to reduce emergency call outs.

    Of course there will always be people that want to do the high level stuff, but don't underestimate the popularity of low level walking


  • Options
    #59
    hmmm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    CardinalJ wrote: »
    I've hiked a lot in Switzerland. Do you really want big wooden poles all over irish mountains, also are they up all the time/all winter? Carrauntoohill just doesnt need it.
    *You* think it isn't needed. I'm fine with waymarkers on popular routes. Who is to say which one of us is correct, shouldn't there be room for both viewpoints?

    Look at the brilliant success of Diamond Hill or Tibradden. Both hills are packed full of families at weekends, it's great to see. These kids are the future of mountaineering and outdoor sports, and the more people who are using the mountains the more political power we will have to influence things like access rights.

    A mountain like Carrauntoohil will always draw the inexperienced. A marked path (or markings on the existing paths), preferably avoiding the Devil's ladder altogether, isn't much of a sacrifice to make.


  • Options
    #60
    Orion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,807 ✭✭✭✭Orion


    JayZeus wrote: »
    I'm well aware of that. As would anyone who's been there on a package ski holiday. It's otherwise entirely irrelevant to the subject and the example you brought forward.

    So, my point remains. You haven't actually been up Carrauntoohil, have you? If so, what route do you suggest they waymark so tourists can follow signs and make it safely to the top and back, in any weather system that descends on the Reeks?

    Go on, expert.

    You can make your point without the personal attacks and needless aggression. Please tone down your posts.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    ThisRegard
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,834 ✭✭✭✭ThisRegard


    CardinalJ wrote: »
    I've hiked a lot in Switzerland. Do you really want big wooden poles all over irish mountains,

    Let's go for something like the monstrosity that is the boardwalk on Cuilcagh Mountain. Keep everyone safe.

    17408299_10154842327935412_611284404_o-1.jpg


Advertisement