Should there be a call out charge for mountain rescue?

I see a discussion on another thread...what do you think? What are the pros and cons?

On balance I think there should. I think anyone in genuine fear should and would expect to pay some amount, say €500, to be taken out of that situation. It's not that the person should be blamed - the fire service have a much larger call out charge to fires, accidents etc. without apportioning blame. That sum would not represent the cost of the service, but simply offset some of their expenses, reduce the need to depend on charity, and help extend the service. The obvious con is that it might persuade someone to take ever greater risks to avoid the charge, and I'm not aware if other rescue services like the RNLI have any charge.

Wanderer78

Would a charge increase the likelihood of people not calling them?

Wanderer78

Wanderer78 wrote: »

Would a charge increase the likelihood of people not calling them?

I think it would, but presumably that likelihood decreases as one gets nearer the more serious end of the range of trouble, where people figure the benefits of being rescued outweighs the costs. It might also deter novices from trying outings that are too risky given their own experience, or mean they consider turning back earlier when the exposure is not as great.

Wanderer78

Deleted User wrote:

I think it would, but presumably that likelihood decreases as one gets nearer the more serious end of the range of trouble, where people figure the benefits of being rescued outweighs the costs. It might also deter novices from trying outings that are too risky given their own experience, or mean they consider turning back earlier when the exposure is not as great.

I'm not convinced at all to be honest, maybe some would, but I suspect many wouldn't, pretty normal human behaviour to me. Been hill walking and mountain biking for years, know others that have been doing it much longer than me, you d be surprised what people call risky behaviour and others do not see risk at all, including myself. I once had a friend who said they'd never go on holidays with me, we 're an odd bunch, us humans. In some ways it reminds me of the 'war on drugs', a roaring success that's been! Risk is a part of human nature, it's complex, we don't truly understand it, but its necessary for our survivability and advancement of our species. It's not possible to stop it, and should be encouraged, in a safe manner of course, whatever that means, but remembering, one man's hell, is another's man's heaven.

knucklehead6

There shouldn’t be a charge.
My fear would be that people wouldn’t call them when needed and instead of a rescue situation you end up with them being called out for a body recovery. And yes, that’s the extreme end of the scale but all it would take is one coroners inquest to say Person X would still be alive today if they had called mountain rescue but didn’t because of the charges associated with it.

Next thing there’d be people suggesting that Theresa Wall was right, and landowners blocking off access.

beertons

Another three people had to be rescued last night at 11:30, 150m from the top. Only seems fair to put a few on it, seen as they didn't pay for a guide.

Del2005

[Deleted User] wrote: »

I see a discussion on another thread...what do you think? What are the pros and cons?

On balance I think there should. I think anyone in genuine fear should and would expect to pay some amount, say €500, to be taken out of that situation. It's not that the person should be blamed - the fire service have a much larger call out charge to fires, accidents etc. without apportioning blame. That sum would not represent the cost of the service, but simply offset some of their expenses, reduce the need to depend on charity, and help extend the service. The obvious con is that it might persuade someone to take ever greater risks to avoid the charge, and I'm not aware if other rescue services like the RNLI have any charge.

The fire services charge has resulted in them being called to house fires requiring 2 or more tenders instead of a chimney fire which could have been dealt with by a single tender. The charge for ambulances at RTIs is paid for by insurance so it increases the cost to innocent motorists who being tax payers have already paid for the emergency services. While the tiny minority who takes up the vast majority of emergency services time never get charged.

People are now afraid to call the fire brigade if they see a barn on fire in case they are billed, they aren't the owner is (which has lead to neighbours falling out!).

If you think that it's going to cost you money to get off a mountain, or any thing that requires first responders, then human nature means that you'll wait till it's too late and what could have been dealt with relatively easily becomes a major event because of the delay.

What could be done is have some type of conviction* for people who have to be rescued if they don't have proper equipment for the conditions.

*Give them community service with the organisation that rescued them to see how reckless they where with their and others lives.

knucklehead6

beertons wrote: »

Another three people had to be rescued last night at 11:30, 150m from the top. Only seems fair to put a few on it, seen as they didn't pay for a guide.

Carrauntoohil?

my3cents

Charge for it and just maybe some of the VOLUNTEERS that give their time for free will say I'm not being paid so why should I give my time for free.

Edit> So just who is going to be taking the money and setting the charges the voluntary organisations or the government?

beertons

knucklehead6 wrote: »

Carrauntoohil?

Yep. Heard it on the radio. It's on breakingnews too.

my3cents

While we are at it lets charge for another voluntary organisation the life boats :rolleyes:

knucklehead6

beertons wrote: »

Yep. Heard it on the radio. It's on breakingnews too.

Just saw it there. Lower leg injury, so nothing to suggest they weren’t prepared and hadn’t correct equipment, it seems they were just unlucky.

Wanderer78

Del2005 wrote: »

What could be done is have some type of conviction* for people who have to be rescued if they don't have proper equipment for the conditions.

*Give them community service with the organisation that rescued them to see how reckless they where with their and others lives.

maybe we could call it, 'the war on the mountains', another 'roaring' success id say!:rolleyes:

maybe we should be a little more proactive by making sure our rescue services are well equipped, well trained and well funded, and maybe it would be a good idea to make sure potential rescuees are well trained and advised before partaking in their chosen past time, just an idea!;)

elperello

Just to clarify, the RNLI (lifeboats) do not charge for their services.

boombang

A few years ago I had to call mountain rescue to help two wallies that has ignored warnings and fallen into water at Glendalough. It was just after dusk, they were both tired, cold and stuck. We could hear them labouring in the water, but we couldn't see them. I called out to them to ask if they were OK. They clearly didn't want to ask for help, but it was only when I was a little insistent that they agreed that I should call mountain rescue. I'm sure if they get they were going to be liable for €500 they would have refused the plan to call for assistance and it would have been harder for me to insist.

I don't think there's going to be an effective deterrent effect of a fee, as people already get themselves into positions where their lives are at stake, which is clearly a much larger penalty.

Maybe services could suggest that they'd make a detailed report to the media about their decision making as part of public information, but that this could be avoided if the rescued party make a considerable donation of €500: Pay up our be made an example of.

Wanderer78

boombang wrote: »

Maybe services could suggest that they'd make a detailed report to the media about their decision making as part of public information, but that this could be avoided if the rescued party make a considerable donation of €500: Pay up our be made an example of.

name and shame, that works well in reducing other risk based activities, doesnt it!

BarryD2

You can end up paying to be rescued in places like the Alps, depending on who comes out as far as I know. And most walkers/ climbers going there are best advised to have rescue insurance etc.

In Ireland, I'd support and have great appreciation & sympathy for the largely voluntary mountain rescue service. But I always have a little nagging voice in my head when I hear people saying that the public shouldn't do this or that because it will endanger or inconvenience the members of such services. This opinion usually comes from people who don't engage themselves in outdoor activities etc. It occasionally but rarely comes from MRTs etc. The latter is more concerning and the day the public are being told not to do things by emergency services is the day we should consider disbanding them, IMHO anyway.

Perverse as it seems, at the end of the day, mountain rescue teams and other such services need actual rescues to work on. To justify all the training exercises and their ultimate existence. The problem for voluntary members is that you can't just choose when it's convenient to go out and have a satisfying outcome. There maybe days, weather and times when it suits and others when it must be an awful nuisance and downright unpleasant. But that's part of the territory and what people sign up for. No point complaining that too many people need to be helped at certain times of the year

Re OP, I'd reckon that giving a voluntary contribution would be more in line with the spirit of such teams. I'm sure this happens already.

CardinalJ

I don't think there should be a charge. I also don't think there should be charges for the fire brigade or any emergency services, but that is a seperate thing.

When you read about some people who require rescue, it's very easy to go full 'knee jerk' and say they should have to pay the full cost of the search operation, but from my reading the idiots who get into difficulty are not in the majority.

If a mountain biker takes a tumble on a marked trail, why should they have to pay? If a walker slips and does their ankle why should they?

The coast guard helicopter is funded by the tax payer and most of us pay some form of tax. Mountain Rescue is funded by the tax payer (not enough), voluntary donations and the goodwill of the volunteers. How do you put a figure on that?

The reality is that people have accidents. Some of them are down to bad luck, some of them are down to poor choices. How many of us have underestimated the weather, not taken a correct bearing because we were certain we knew where we were going, had the wrong gear?

99% of the time we get away with it, learn a lesson, and dont let it happen again. For the 1% who injure themselves or get lost, I don't see how a big fine/will make a difference.

Mountain Rescue do a fantastic and admirable job, but I've yet to hear any team or Mountain Rescue Ireland call for bills/fines.

CardinalJ

CardinalJ wrote: »

If a mountain biker takes a tumble on a marked trail, why should they have to pay? If a walker slips and does their ankle why should they?

But they'd pay for pretty much every other element, for example if medical treatment was needed everything from the doctor to mri scans to the cost of an operation would have to be paid for by someone (it may be the taxpayer if on medical card, or an insurance company).

the_pen_turner

I think it should be free unless you are doing something stupid like surfing during a storm or mountain climbing in with a wind warning etc
then have an idiot tax that funds a new boat or rescue gear etc

CardinalJ

Deleted User wrote:

But they'd pay for pretty much every other element, for example if medical treatment was needed everything from the doctor to mri scans to the cost of an operation would have to be paid for by someone (it may be the taxpayer if on medical card, or an insurance company).

But you don't pay for everything.

You pay €80 per day if an in patient. If you hypothetically break your ankle on a normal street, you don't directly pay, for the ambulance, nurses, doctors, medecine, surgery etc. Even if no medical card and no private health insurance.

You are right in that you pay tax already, but Mountain rescue should be included in that. Its an emergency service.

People already seem reluctant enough to call 999/112 for mountain rescue given they are getting first calls hours after dark and in winter. A bill/fine would make that worse.

BarryD2

the_pen_turner wrote: »

I think it should be free unless you are doing something stupid like surfing during a storm or mountain climbing in with a wind warning etc
then have an idiot tax that funds a new boat or rescue gear etc

Ah yes, but just who decides what is 'stupid' and what isn't??

ThisRegard

No. I said in the other thread that if the fee suggested in the OP is enforced it will lead to people potentially getting into more serious trouble than what they're already in.

(I'm not taking into account the weather sight see-ers who inevitably get stuck in the gaps).

CardinalJ

CardinalJ wrote: »

But you don't pay for everything.

You pay €80 per day if an in patient. If you hypothetically break your ankle on a normal street, you don't directly pay, for the ambulance, nurses, doctors, medecine, surgery etc. Even if no medical card and no private health insurance.

After paying for every element when I tore cartilage hiking, from AnE to the physio to the scan to the medication (but avoiding the charge for an operation as while I had no insurance, turned out no op was needed), I'm curious.

Who else should/would have paid for me?

hmmm

I think it's good for people to push themselves a little, and if you're into outdoor sports part of that will involve putting yourself into situations other people might consider stupid - e.g. camping on Lug in the snow. Even with the best of preparations, we all make mistakes and might need some help. A couple of the MRT people I know would have this mentality themselves, and a fair few of the MRT teams seem to draw members with this sort of background.

I don't think most of the above group would object to the Alpine model of buying insurance and being charged for rescue, but it's not really needed as there is give and take on both sides. Similarly a fair bit of the MRT funding comes from this group.

Where there perhaps is a problem is when people who are completely unprepared go into the mountains and get into trouble. There are also the "civilians" who get into trouble on a difficult spot e.g. the Spinc in Glendalough. Funding for rescuing both of these should come out of general taxation I think, they are a very different group of rescuees.

Green Peter

IMO It should remain free, I'm a Garda and have worked in many situations with MR over a long period of time and I find them excellent. My experience with the fire service is that people hold off until the situation gets out of hand especially in the case of gorse fires. They are concerned with the cost as it's well known they are very high and you can see how it happens as a result. I have always expressed concerns in relation to part time fire services and their over enthusiasm at times to throw huge resources at minor incidents. it means a call out fee for its partime members. I raised this with a friend in the fire service and he said "sure the insurance covers it" unfortunately we all pay more as a result and people avoid using the service until too late and the damage is even worse. I wouldn't like to see a similar situation with MR. I think people who have been rescued should be written to by the mountain rescue a few weeks after the event and asked for a donation. Shame them into it.

The very reason the service actually works is because it is volunteer staffed and run and members of the service are almost entirely against the basic concept of charging for it.

There will never be a fee/fine/penalty for calling mountain rescue in ireland. Not a chance.

Alun

I hang out with a good few MRT members from various teams across the country and not once have I heard any of them either complain about a callout, however spurious the reason may have been, or suggested that there should be a charge of any sort. They'd rather someone call them out, and for it to have turned out not to be necessary, than for them to put it off and for the situation to escalate into something worse.

As others have said, MRT do get some funding from the government, but it doesn't even come close to what it costs per year to keep such a team going. From memory it covers about a third of the total running costs. Costs are increasing too year on year, including the dreaded insurance.

Whilst I'd agree with the MRT's themselves and be dead against introducing any kind of callout charge, I personally would be giving an extra large donation (on top of what I already give) to whatever team rescued me if I ended up needing them. Not everyone is the same though and I've heard stories of rescuees just waving a quick "Thanks!" at their rescuers and hopping in their car and driving off, or worse still coming down off a mountain in the dark and walking past a number of MRT vehicles parked in the car park without thinking that they might actually be out searching for them and not even letting them know they were home safe until the next day when they saw something on the news and the penny dropped.

JayZeus

JayZeus wrote: »

The very reason the service actually works is because it is volunteer staffed and run and members of the service are almost entirely against the basic concept of charging for it.

There will never be a fee/fine/penalty for calling mountain rescue in ireland. Not a chance.

But presumably it works in other countries where there is a charge, albeit one that is picked up by insurance?

TeaBagMania

I always visit the Cliffs of Moher when I holiday in Ireland, great little hike from the tourist center down to the Moher Fort Site.

happened to mention it to the lady running the desk and she told me it would be 3K euro if they had to call out the helicopter, not sure how true that is but sounds legit

CardinalJ

Deleted User wrote:

After paying for every element when I tore cartilage hiking, from AnE to the physio to the scan to the medication (but avoiding the charge for an operation as while I had no insurance, turned out no op was needed), I'm curious.

Are you talking about €100 AnE charge, medication from a pharmacy etc? I'm talking about full cost of emergency hospitalisation. You don't pay every single associated cost with health care. So you're not paying for each pair of gloves a Dr uses or for your anaesthetic etc.

I know some of the thinking behind the A&E fee was to get people to go to their GP instead of clogging up A&E, but I dont thing Mountain Rescue teams are being used/abused in the same way