Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

Billy86 · 28-12-2017 4:43pm

WinnyThePoo wrote: »

Problems in the middle east didn't start with Obama or even bush. American intrusion started well back in the seventies. Blaming isis on Obama. That's an uneducated claim.

You could actually go back to the Second World War (maybe before even?) and/or beginnings of the Cold War as the Soviets and Americans did a good bit of meddling around for resources. If I'm correct one of the very earliest instances was in Iran where Eisenhower and Churchill oversaw a coup d'etat to install the Shah due to worries of links to the Soviets after the previous regime nationalised their gas and oil. The 1970s would however seem to be when the backlash began to really become very noticeable.

Would recommend Oliver Stone's Untold History of the United States on that front, very interesting series that gives a very different perspective.

Billy86 · 28-12-2017 4:47pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Corporate America is doing just fine (doesn't Trump keep telling us about all the jobs and stock market growth) so why the need for a taxpayer funded handout?

Of all people, an NBA hall of famer seems to have hit this on the head better than anyone else.

“Shaq, they said it’s going trickle down … I’m going to trickle my fat (butt) down to the jewelry store to get a new Rolex,” [Charles] Barkley joked, drawing laughs from his co-hosts. “They’re not going to pass it to nobody. Thank you Republicans, I knew I could always count on y’all to take care of us rich people, us one percenters. Sorry, poor people. I’m hoping for y’all, but y’all ain’t got no chance.”

Barkley is also in no small part credited to 'getting the black vote out' in Alabama a few weeks ago.

RobertKK · 28-12-2017 4:52pm

Billy86 wrote: »

Cheers as I had missed that - but it does not say a single thing about North Korea.

Some corrections though - the Russians did not change their stance on Clinton due to being worried about some inevitable war. If you want to try to claim that, you'd need to show how she did a 180 or made huge changes as a politicians from about 2009-2012 as in 2009 they were celebrating what proved to be a failed 'reset' of relations with her. But you're claiming she was always a war monger, certainly at the very least back to 2002, so that's not it. The reason the Russians changed their stance and became so heavily involved was because of sanctions brought about from the Magnitsky Act, pure and simple. That is what changed in that time frame, not Clinton's foreign policy outlook.

As for Israel - no, Jerusalem is not the capital. They try to claim it is, but it is not internationally recognised. If as you put it "[Jerusalem] is the capital and has been agreed in the US since the Clinton administration" then there would be no need for a UN vote on it. And if the change were not a big one that could cause catastrophic issues in the region, then then you wouldn't have seen as good as every other member of the UN vote against it. Don't try using 'the US and Israel's connection' as an excuse by the way - that relationship has been there for decades, yet it took an idiot of, well, Trumpian proportions to try and force the rest of the world into accepting Jerusalem as the capital.

"Guatemala followed suit and other nations are expected to as well" - what are you talking about here? Guatemala have no clout, and you won't be seeing world leaders following behind just because 'Guatemala did it too'. If others were going to follow, Trump would have been hosting his party for leaders of places other than Nauru, Micronesia and Togo. It's about as likely to pass through the UN as an Obamacare repeal is likely to get over 70 votes in the Senate.

Nope, that was Bush. then it ramped up under Obama as the technology became even more readily available, and is continuing to do so under Trump. Yet not a peep from you on Trump's usage of drones outpacing Obama's by far despite how strongly you felt about it only 12 months ago.

Wrong there, but it certainly explains why you seem to have the impression I'm a big supporter of Hillary Clinton.

Here's the problem, and it alludes to the irony in your statement above - if Obama had done exactly what Trump did with China, you'd be unhappy with it. Warmongering and all of that.

As of late September, he was going at over 4 times the pace Obama had been - http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/09/loosen-obama-limits-drone-strikes-170922141205178.html

Also as of September, total bombs dropped surpassed all of 2016 - http://www.newsweek.com/trump-era-record-number-bombs-dropped-middle-east-667505

And as for targetting, from Jan-Aug this year they had caused more deaths than in the three years combined - http://www.newsweek.com/trump-has-already-killed-more-civilians-obama-us-fight-against-isis-653564 . Don't forget though - that is exactly what Trump said he would do during the campaign while his supporters were busy jumping up and down about isolationism, world peace, etc etc.

You were extremely interested in drone strikes, impact, civilian casualties, total numbers etc right up until about January... I thought you might have been aware, but you seem to have completely stopped tracking any news on them right around that point in time.

I will answer a couple of points, I don't think Russia changed policy due to an inevitable war, but they knew her form and how she had spoken about no fly zones in Syria, regime change. Syria has been a proxy war between US backed Saudi Arabia against Iran/Russia backed Syria.
We saw recently how Saudi Arabia have been meddling in Lebanon due to Iran backed Hezbollah.

I do look back on the previous year's stats for drone strikes and death totals. I don't care who uses them, I think it only causes more radicalisation because who would want to live under the weapons of terror, I mean we are told you can hear them humming away overhead, the person on the ground doesn't know when it will strike or who is the target. It is like having an air raid but the plane doesn't fly away it is waiting.
They should not be accepted as the norm and I don't care who the president is. There use is a form of terrorism, no honest person would tolerate living with a drone overhead waiting to fire a missile at God knows who, and maybe a loved one, or oneself ends up being 'collateral damage'.
Billy, my views have not changed but 8 years in after Obama tripled their use and normalised it, I don't see any change coming here. Trump won't get away as easily as Obama did as Trump has far more critics, but look at who Dublin City Council is giving their freedom of Dublin to and it shows the double standards we live in. Aung San Suu Kyi had her award rightly revoked, but yet they are still giving it a man who should not be receiving it for all the harm he brought the world.

The fact remains that the Jerusalem decision will have no impact on any peace talks, as none will take place as long as Hamas rule Gaza.

The New York Times had a piece in November where they said Trump has the US in retreat on the world stage. They claim it is making Japan and China look to sort their differences.
I don't think the US helped the world over the past 16 years playing world police man, it brought a lot of death, destruction, radicalisation and terrorism and a migrant crisis, the worst since WW2. I don't care who the president is, once they stop repeating the same mistakes of the past 16 years over and over again.
Imposing regime change is a failed policy unless one likes death and chaos. No sane person does.
I admit I am conflicted by North Korea and the right thing to do. This is the only country I would love to see regime change in.
It is a disgrace we live in a world where the UN says that crimes on the scale of the Nazis are happening in that country. I believe most people there live to survive and do and say what is necessary to stay away from the concentration camps. But giving these people their freedom from the Kim family would cost too many lives. So we end up with China...

RobertKK · 28-12-2017 5:12pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

We are completely different nations, with completely different markets and advantages. The US is the biggest market in the world. It has resources, workforce, education etc etc. Having a large presence in the US market practically sells your product in the rest of the world. We need to do something to differentiate ourselves due to the lack of any advantages, US does not have the same issue.

I am not against the lowering of the CT rate, but to give such a dramatic reduction, whilst at the same time giving such low amounts to the lower/middle classes strikes me as the wrong way around.

Corporate America is doing just fine (doesn't Trump keep telling us about all the jobs and stock market growth) so why the need for a taxpayer funded handout?

Of course but they would have done some within some accepted norms, like being qualified. Have you looked at the diversity of Obamas pick as opposed to Trumps?

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/politics/ct-trump-blacks-judges-20171113-story.html

Really, you think UK only started hating EU when Obama was elected? Obama steaded a sinking world economy, a problem that the EU seemed totally unable to solve.

And wasn't it Trump that openly wanted Brexit, best buds with Farrange?

Is that why US corporations keep trillions of dollars overseas and mostly untaxed?
Some companies gave all their staff a bonus as they would be paying less taxes.

It could be argued the Democrat gene pool is more diverse than the Republican gene pool.

The chaos in North Africa supported by policies of Obama, Cameron, Sarkozy and which later spread to Syria, the subsequent migrant crisis, the terrorist attacks in France and the UK, with Interpol saying terrorists used the migrant crisis to access Europe.
before the referendum this was in the news: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/17/terrorists-profiting-from-people-smuggling-to-fund-attacks-polic/
We saw how Farage used the migrant crisis, and it was ranked as one of the top reasons for voting to leave, control of the borders.
Brexit had a small margin of victory and Europe was not popular over its handling of the migrants, as people asked who are all these people?
People read about the New year's eve attacks in Cologne and in Sweden, saw the terrorism that was happening, authorities saying potential thousands of terrorists had entered Europe.
No doubt western policy to support the Arab spring and its disastrous outcome contributed to Brexit and the mess we now have.

StringerBell · 28-12-2017 6:14pm

Why bother pretending not to read someones posts, then go ahead and continue to respond to each one?

Bizarre

SeamusFX · 28-12-2017 6:41pm

JRant wrote: »

I think you've hit the nail on the head. Regardless of who won, the Russians appeared to be playing all sides. If Clinton won you could easily imagine a similar type of investigation taking place. All with the goal of undermining democracy in the USA.

Money has completely corrupted both parties but how do you put that genie back in the bottle?

What is wrong with everyone? There is one extremely corrupt party and we all know which party that is!!!!! Yes, no one is perfect, but the GOP crooks take the cake by a million miles. There is no real connection between Hillary and Russia and that has been debunked and it was only a story because Fox News and the Right wing crazies made it up and tried to connect some dots and the Liar in Chief ranted on about it and all the dupes in America believe him without checking any facts. I can't understand how anyone could believe anything Trump says without confirming the truth, as the man has zero credibility! So the bottom line is Trump was in bed with the Russians, the Russians also tried to help Stein, but only to take votes away from Hillary. Stein probably didn't know the Russians were helping her, but Trump definitely knew the Russians were helping him, there's so much evidence and a smoking gun, it's just a matter of time before he goes down, unless the totally corrupt and morally bankrupt GOP prevents it!

Itssoeasy · 28-12-2017 7:05pm

Doug Jones will be certified later as the winner of the Alabama senate election. So Roy Moore can talk all he wants but Doug Jones will be certified, whether it's in gods hands or not.

RobertKK · 28-12-2017 7:12pm

StringerBell wrote: »

Why bother pretending not to read someones posts, then go ahead and continue to respond to each one?

Bizarre

Maybe the tone improved and it was courteous.

Mr.Micro · 28-12-2017 7:18pm

SeamusFX wrote: »

What is wrong with everyone? There is one extremely corrupt party and we all know which party that is!!!!! Yes, no one is perfect, but the GOP crooks take the cake by a million miles. There is no real connection between Hillary and Russia and that has been debunked and it was only a story because Fox News and the Right wing crazies made it up and tried to connect some dots and the Liar in Chief ranted on about it and all the dupes in America believe him without checking any facts. I can't understand how anyone could believe anything Trump says without confirming the truth, as the man has zero credibility! So the bottom line is Trump was in bed with the Russians, the Russians also tried to help Stein, but only to take votes away from Hillary. Stein probably didn't know the Russians were helping her, but Trump definitely knew the Russians were helping him, there's so much evidence and a smoking gun, it's just a matter of time before he goes down, unless the totally corrupt and morally bankrupt GOP prevents it!

You can bet the GOP will prevent it. Nothing will happen to Trump no matter what. The Republicians will hang on to power and will cover for Trump at any cost. Right and wrong have never mattered.

RobertKK · 28-12-2017 7:38pm

SeamusFX wrote: »

What is wrong with everyone? There is one extremely corrupt party and we all know which party that is!!!!! Yes, no one is perfect, but the GOP crooks take the cake by a million miles. There is no real connection between Hillary and Russia and that has been debunked and it was only a story because Fox News and the Right wing crazies made it up and tried to connect some dots and the Liar in Chief ranted on about it and all the dupes in America believe him without checking any facts. I can't understand how anyone could believe anything Trump says without confirming the truth, as the man has zero credibility! So the bottom line is Trump was in bed with the Russians, the Russians also tried to help Stein, but only to take votes away from Hillary. Stein probably didn't know the Russians were helping her, but Trump definitely knew the Russians were helping him, there's so much evidence and a smoking gun, it's just a matter of time before he goes down, unless the totally corrupt and morally bankrupt GOP prevents it!

The Democrats primaries ended up with the chairwoman having to resign, for having staff backing one candidate over the other.

Both parties are as bad as each other.

SeamusFX · 28-12-2017 9:14pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The Democrats primaries ended up with the chairwoman having to resign, for having staff backing one candidate over the other.

Both parties are as bad as each other.

Sorry RobertKKK, big difference!! That's like saying both Charles Manson and a little old lady who didn't pay her TV License are both criminals and both the same!!! The Democrats aren't perfect, but what Trump and the GOP are doing is treasonous. I'm sick of Republicans saying both sides are bad and we had a choice between two terrible candidates. That's complete BS, Hillary is far from perfect, but Trump is a complete nightmare!! If the truth about Trump was in a fiction novel a few years ago, no one would read it, as they'd be saying it was too unbelievable and too ridiculous.

RobertKK · 28-12-2017 10:00pm

SeamusFX wrote: »

Sorry RobertKKK, big difference!! That's like saying both Charles Manson and a little old lady who didn't pay her TV License are both criminals and both the same!!! The Democrats aren't perfect, but what Trump and the GOP are doing is treasonous. I'm sick of Republicans saying both sides are bad and we had a choice between two terrible candidates. That's complete BS, Hillary is far from perfect, but Trump is a complete nightmare!! If the truth about Trump was in a fiction novel a few years ago, no one would read it, as they'd be saying it was too unbelievable and too ridiculous.

They are all the same. It is just the perception. Imagine if Trump had been given questions before a debate that his opponents didn't get. Wouldn't be the most democratic process giving one an advantage in an election.
Imagine if the Republicans had worked against Trump's opponents in the Republican party. The party got the candidate they didn't want. The Democrats hierarchy ironically worked to get the candidate they wanted when the alternative would probably have won the whole election, but it was her turn...
If a party can operate that way internally, you should be wondering how they operate externally. It would be foolish to think all the under handed scheming stopped when it came to external matters.
I wouldn't trust any of them, Democrats or Republicans.

I hope how you spelled my username was a mistake and not an insult.

SeamusFX · 28-12-2017 10:11pm

RobertKK wrote: »

They are all the same. It is just the perception. Imagine if Trump had been given questions before a debate that his opponents didn't get. Wouldn't be the most democratic process giving one an advantage in an election.
Imagine if the Republicans had worked against Trump's opponents in the Republican party. The party got the candidate they didn't want. The Democrats hierarchy ironically worked to get the candidate they wanted when the alternative would probably have won the whole election, but it was her turn...
If a party can operate that way internally, you should be wondering how they operate externally. It would be foolish to think all the under handed scheming stopped when it came to external matters.
I wouldn't trust any of them, Democrats or Republicans.

You are Delusional!! As I said before the election, if the GOP searched all of the US they couldn't have found a candidate worse than Trump, with the possible exception of Charlie Manson! Now that Manson is dead, Trump is by far the worst and the most destructive and I honestly believe, while he was alive, Charlie would have done a better job!

Trump is destroying the country, giving all he can to the rich, milking every cent he can get, appointing crazy unqualified judges, giving control to the Russians, causing internal dissent between different races and classes in America, prompting trouble in the Middle East and North Korea, where either could possibly lead to world destruction. But people are walking around with blinders and think Hillary is the same, because her husband got a BJ.

RobertKK · 28-12-2017 10:17pm

SeamusFX wrote: »

You are Delusional!! As I said before the election, if the GOP searched all of the US they couldn't have found a candidate worse than Trump, with the possible exception of Charlie Manson! Now that Manson is dead, Trump is by far the worst and the most destructive and I honestly believe, while he was alive, Charlie would have done a better job!

Trump is destroying the country, giving all he can to the rich, milking every cent he can get, appointing crazy unqualified judges, giving control to the Russians, causing internal dissent between different races and classes in America, prompting trouble in the Middle East and North Korea, where either could possibly lead to world destruction. But people are walking around with blinders and think Hillary is the same, because her husband got a BJ.

The alternative to Trump was a person who supported every war going as a politician. It is not like Trump had great competition. It doesn't matter if Bill got a BJ, Hillary had a record of own which was nothing special when she had power.
Your Charles Manson talk shows you are not taking this seriously and I am coming around to thinking your misspelling of my username may not have been a mistake...

monnies · 28-12-2017 10:29pm

after the clinton corporation and obama fukked libya,
now there are actual slave markeets again in libya
obama literally brought back slavery to africa,
liberals will defend this :rolleyes:
SNIP

Post more constructively than this please.

SeamusFX · 28-12-2017 10:43pm

RobertKK wrote: »

The alternative to Trump was a person who supported every war going as a politician. It is not like Trump had great competition. It doesn't matter if Bill got a BJ, Hillary had a record of own which was nothing special when she had power.
Your Charles Manson talk shows you are not taking this seriously and I am coming around to thinking your misspelling of my username may not have been a mistake...

Robert, you need to take off your blinders! Let me guess, you are either a Big anti-abortion, anti-gay, racist or wannabe millionaire. The scary thing is America is filled with racists, anti-abortion people or people who are delusional and think they'll be millionaires some day, so they vote Republican no matter what and they ignore everything else. Where do you get this BS saying Hillary supported every war? Meanwhile, the 2 wars the US is fighting were both started by GOP Bush! Yes, I'm disappointed that Obama didn't do more to end the wars he inherited, but at least he didn't start anymore. Meanwhile trump looks like he's doing everything he can to instigate a few more wars and all we need is one big one to end it all! Finally, i was totally serious about Charlie Manson, he epitomizes one of the worst people in the world today (or at least at the time of the election). Maybe Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy are worse, but they were dead at the time of the election. Have you not seen all the trouble Trump has been causing, all the lies he spews. Anyone who can support such a loose cannon, is not taking anything serious! As I said before, Trump is one of the worst people in America and only because of a combination of his daddy's money and dumb luck, the man isn't in prison or dead. Say all you want about Hillary, Trump is a mental case and not good for America or the world and if you can't see that, there's no use in debating with you.

SeamusFX · 28-12-2017 10:53pm

monnies wrote: »

after the clinton corporation and obama fukked libya,
now there are actual slave markeets again in libya
obama literally brought back slavery to africa,
liberals will defend this :rolleyes:

Gaddafi was a nightmare and he should have been overthrown. Maybe his death lead to slave trade, but the alternative was wholesale massacres of innocent civilians. The Obama administration saved the lives of thousands of people. Yes NATO and the US launched an operation in Libya hoping to save civilians in Benghazi and after Gaddafi was killed maybe the US and NATO should have stuck around to ensure stability, but Obama's hands were tied because the GOP and people like Trump were saying the US shouldn't have a role in Libya. I'm sorry, you can't have your bread buttered on both sides!

listermint · 28-12-2017 10:55pm

These are the views of someone who will hammer on about the media feeding stories and big corporations feeding agenda , however he will take is news feeds from about 3 locations Facebook included.

There is no point debating With that mentality as they will present only their side as legitimate and not examine any level of reasonable comparison when trying to make a point.

RobertKK · 29-12-2017 12:02am

SeamusFX wrote: »

Robert, you need to take off your blinders! Let me guess, you are either a Big anti-abortion, anti-gay, racist or wannabe millionaire. The scary thing is America is filled with racists, anti-abortion people or people who are delusional and think they'll be millionaires some day, so they vote Republican no matter what and they ignore everything else. Where do you get this BS saying Hillary supported every war? Meanwhile, the 2 wars the US is fighting were both started by GOP Bush! Yes, I'm disappointed that Obama didn't do more to end the wars he inherited, but at least he didn't start anymore. Meanwhile trump looks like he's doing everything he can to instigate a few more wars and all we need is one big one to end it all! Finally, i was totally serious about Charlie Manson, he epitomizes one of the worst people in the world today (or at least at the time of the election). Maybe Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy are worse, but they were dead at the time of the election. Have you not seen all the trouble Trump has been causing, all the lies he spews. Anyone who can support such a loose cannon, is not taking anything serious! As I said before, Trump is one of the worst people in America and only because of a combination of his daddy's money and dumb luck, the man isn't in prison or dead. Say all you want about Hillary, Trump is a mental case and not good for America or the world and if you can't see that, there's no use in debating with you.

Sometimes the person who accuse others of wearing blinkers are the ones wearing the blinkers.

Obama didn't inherit the Libya war, the Syrian war, the Yemeni, he contributed to all of them.
Invaded Libya, turned it into a terrorist haven as bombing is all the US is good for these days.
Supported the Free Syrian Army against Russian/Iranian backed Assad, which only increased the death and destruction of that country.
Sold billions of dollars worth of aircraft and weapons to Saudi Arabia for their war against Yemen.
What about the coup the US supported under Obama, against the democratically elected leader of Honduras, and the chaos and death toll that brought.
Things have been mental with the US for a long time, whether it is Clinton thinking a few tomahawk missiles would stop Al Qaeda in the 1990s.
The Afghanistan war and Iraqi war under Bush Jr, and the wars of the Obama era, it has been failed policy after failed policy, and people with blinkers were wanting more of the same.
Trump may be an abject failure but his record in this area is currently not worse than the previous failures who held the office of President.
People with blinkers will say it is worse but will have nothing to back up their claims, except it is Trump and only Charles Manson is worse...

aloyisious · 29-12-2017 12:10am

Itssoeasy wrote: »

Doug Jones will be certified later as the winner of the Alabama senate election. So Roy Moore can talk all he wants but Doug Jones will be certified, whether it's in gods hands or not.

Yup. Rejected by judge and result certified by Alabama AG.

ancapailldorcha · 29-12-2017 12:16am

SeamusFX banned for personal abuse. Pretending to mis-type someone's username is not witty or original, nor will it be tolerated here.

Christy42 · 29-12-2017 12:50am

RobertKK wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

Surely it is obvious. Do you want to try defending Trump? It is an impossible task and thus all actual Trump discussions must in fact focus on other people. Note that even the main defense against the Mueller probe has little to do with Trump and whether or not he would do such a thing. The main defense from the right has been to attack Mueller. It is a tactic that is being repeatedly employed. Attack, attack, attack because if people look at where the right is at the moment it is toast.

It is not about defending, some people only post negative as if there was nothing positive at all.
If a little balance is added, it has to be wrong.

You are giving out about others not posting in Trump's favour and yet you refuse to do the same. All you can do is post against Hillary/Obama not for Trump.

You are simply saying there should some pro Trump posts without saying whst such a post would contain or indeed if it could be constructed without seeming silly. You want pro Trump posts then post them. All you have tried to do is to move the topic away from Trump which is essentially an admission of his indefensibility.

Is there anything actually in favour of Trump? Put up as they say. You complain about a lack of balance but refuse to provide it yourself. Pro Trump posts would provide balance. You only provide anti other people posts. You can't complain about a lack of balance and refuse to give any.

BuilderPlumber · 29-12-2017 1:42am

One can argue about who caused what and contributed most to what. Sad fact is America may have had some presidents who were better than others in the last 50 years but since at least 1967, America has been poorly lead and poor decisions have been repeatedly made. This has only gotten worse as the years go on.

America's Iran policy I'd rate at 0% YET no president had the guts to change it and make friends. They would get a positive response. America's Iraq policy made America's Iran policy look decent. And Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 only went from bad to worse there. America's Libya policy was abysmal too. Obama was one of the better ones yet the poor policy remained. I don't think the president has the power to change who REALLY is in power. That is obvious. America's double standards show when you mention the names Milosevic and Netanyahu. 2 evil tyrants treated VERY differently.

It is wellknown Trump works as a puppet but Trump is not the first or last president to be a puppet to arms industry, oil industry, certain lobby groups, etc. America has created this sea of terrorism, voodoo 'Islamism', gun culture and all that is bad in the world. The Middle East was once the most safe and peaceful part of the world and countries like Afghanistan were the safest on earth as was most of the region (Iran remains relatively safe and that is a miracle!). America changed that and they should remember that. Long before Trump and long after him, the consequences of POOR POOR American policy will continue to cause terminal decline in that once great region.

Itssoeasy · 29-12-2017 1:55am

https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/10/29/john-boehner-trump-house-republican-party-retirement-profile-feature-215741

An very interesting and candid interview from former speaker of the house John Boehner on a range of topics including President Donald Trump and he wasn't afraid to drop a couple of F bombs about sitting republican members of Congress.

BOEHNER ON ... VICE PRESIDENT MIKE PENCE

“If you watched him during the campaign, when all that craziness was going on, he was the loyal soldier. And he’s still the loyal soldier. But he and his team, they’ve got their eyes open.”

BOEHNER ON ... THE HOUSE FREEDOM CAUCUS

“They can’t tell you what they’re for. They can tell you everything they’re against. They’re anarchists. They want total chaos. Tear it all down and start over. That’s where their mindset is.”

BOEHNER ON ... CONGRESS

“We’ve got some of the smartest people in America who serve in the Congress, and we’ve got some of the dumbest. We have some of the nicest people you’d ever want to meet, and some that are Nazis. Congress is nothing more than a slice of America.”

I've actually always liked John Boehner as I find him willing to be somewhat honest which seems rare in the GOP.

Itssoeasy · 29-12-2017 1:58am

BuilderPlumber wrote: »

One can argue about who caused what and contributed most to what. Sad fact is America may have had some presidents who were better than others in the last 50 years but since at least 1967, America has been poorly lead and poor decisions have been repeatedly made. This has only gotten worse as the years go on.

America's Iran policy I'd rate at 0% YET no president had the guts to change it and make friends. They would get a positive response. America's Iraq policy made America's Iran policy look decent. And Bush 1, Clinton and Bush 2 only went from bad to worse there. America's Libya policy was abysmal too. Obama was one of the better ones yet the poor policy remained. I don't think the president has the power to change who REALLY is in power. That is obvious. America's double standards show when you mention the names Milosevic and Netanyahu. 2 evil tyrants treated VERY differently.

It is wellknown Trump works as a puppet but Trump is not the first or last president to be a puppet to arms industry, oil industry, certain lobby groups, etc. America has created this sea of terrorism, voodoo 'Islamism', gun culture and all that is bad in the world. The Middle East was once the most safe and peaceful part of the world and countries like Afghanistan were the safest on earth as was most of the region (Iran remains relatively safe and that is a miracle!). America changed that and they should remember that. Long before Trump and long after him, the consequences of POOR POOR American policy will continue to cause terminal decline in that once great region.

So since LBJ then ?

RobertKK · 29-12-2017 2:23am

Christy42 wrote: »

You are giving out about others not posting in Trump's favour and yet you refuse to do the same. All you can do is post against Hillary/Obama not for Trump.

You are simply saying there should some pro Trump posts without saying whst such a post would contain or indeed if it could be constructed without seeming silly. You want pro Trump posts then post them. All you have tried to do is to move the topic away from Trump which is essentially an admission of his indefensibility.

Is there anything actually in favour of Trump? Put up as they say. You complain about a lack of balance but refuse to provide it yourself. Pro Trump posts would provide balance. You only provide anti other people posts. You can't complain about a lack of balance and refuse to give any.

Not true, but in a roundabout way, as I said Trump was wrong on the Iran deal and climate change. They are two areas that Obama was pro-active.
I do find it hard to see what good Hillary did as secretary of State.

I think Syria is better because of Trump, in 2016 all the talk was of the possibility of US and Russian aircraft colliding or causing some incident between each other .
The ISIS caliphate is virtually gone.
The Corporation tax cut which before the cut was the highest corporate tax rate in the OECD.
I said some of these things already, but not everyone reads all the posts.

Chips Lovell · 29-12-2017 7:49am

Monnies banned for trolling the bejaysus out of the thread

For Forks Sake · 29-12-2017 10:41am

Trump tweeting about climate change while playing golf in Florida, what do you do with this level of wilful ignorance?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946531657229701120

Christy42 · 29-12-2017 10:53am

RobertKK wrote: »

Christy42 wrote: »

You are giving out about others not posting in Trump's favour and yet you refuse to do the same. All you can do is post against Hillary/Obama not for Trump.

You are simply saying there should some pro Trump posts without saying whst such a post would contain or indeed if it could be constructed without seeming silly. You want pro Trump posts then post them. All you have tried to do is to move the topic away from Trump which is essentially an admission of his indefensibility.

Is there anything actually in favour of Trump? Put up as they say. You complain about a lack of balance but refuse to provide it yourself. Pro Trump posts would provide balance. You only provide anti other people posts. You can't complain about a lack of balance and refuse to give any.

I think Syria is better because of Trump, in 2016 all the talk was of the possibility of US and Russian aircraft colliding or causing some incident between each other .
The ISIS caliphate is virtually gone.
The Corporation tax cut which before the cut was the highest corporate tax rate in the OECD.
I said some of these things already, but not everyone reads all the posts.

Good now there can actually be a discussion about these things. Personally I don't think the tax rate cut will increase business much but I could well be wrong on that. We will see where it goes. However this is a good example of Trump doing something that could have a positive effect. In terms of the bill I am more worried about the sneaky hit to Obamacare as the corporate rate cut could work out.

ISIS is largely gone but the battle for Mossul was long under way before Trump took office. I don't think Trump has done anything here to speed it up or slow it down recently. Nor should he have been massively involved as he has little relevant experience in those areas so I certainly don't give him any negatives on this front but I can't see a reason to give him specifically a positive mark here.

As for Syria. I felt the talk of planes hitting was largely overhyped. Both militaries know what they are doing in that regard and stay well clear of each other. I never thought it was a real risk. You even saw that with the missiles Trump launched. Communication lines were open on both sides to ensure an incident was not caused accidentally.

Leroy42 · 29-12-2017 11:14am

Just on the CT rate cut, it may or may not work. IMO it won't, at least it won't in terms of the additional taxes it brings in through extra wages etc. But time will tell. What troubles me is that the US is, whilst not surging ahead, is not in a recession either, and so I fail to see the reasoning behind this massive tax break.

Why the need for such a drastic and immediate cut? Why not lower it over time, with the corporations having to fulfill their side of the bargain so keep the process going? That way the real effects can seen, either positive or negative, in a way that actions can be taken to correct the path.

This is a massive gamble, with all prior evidence pointing to it not working. The trick of having the CT permanent but the individual temporary tells you that they are even uncertain of the effects and know they may need to increase taxes in the future to pay for this but do not what to tackle CT.

Many economists have said (and of course there are many that disagree) that most of these monies will simply find itself back in the hands of stock holders etc. Some of that will lead to extra spending, but on the whole rich people tend to pocket tax savings whilst the lower/middle income tend to spend it. So surely a more efficient way to give people more money is to reduce individual taxes, take more people out of the tax net, give them better education, taxes on employers (PRSI etc). Looking at area such as rates which can directly effect locations of factories.

But the main area that I have an issue with is that these tax cuts are being, partially, paid for by reduction in provisions like medicare. He has also removed a key leg of Obamacare meaning that health insurance is likely to rise. All this on the promise that Apple may bring some of its Bns back?

Tell me how · 29-12-2017 11:24am

^^^^^

All of your considerations are based on the understanding that the purpose of the tax bill was to strengthen the American economy.

If you think the purpose was to provide a windfall for large businesses and wealthy individuals, provide some crumbs for middle class to appease them ahead of mid-terms and then 2020 and to provide soundbites to pro-Trump media, it is very straightforward.

Donald J Trump could not care less as to long term prospects of the nation beyond his term (s) (perish the thought).

America is showing itself to be incapable of electing a president, Senate and house who cares more about the country than their own pockets or more presciently, those of their donors.

At least in Ireland, multi-party representation allows for a broader interest.

ECO_Mental · 29-12-2017 1:46pm

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Trump tweeting about climate change while playing golf in Florida, what do you do with this level of wilful ignorance?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946531657229701120

He has to be the most ignorant buffoon of an educated man that has ever graced politics in any democracy ever. ok maybe also Danny Healy Rae

but I'm giving him a pass because he never went to an Ivy League college.

The NYT interviewed him yesterday and here is the transcript of that interview, https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/trump-interview-excerpts.html

Its a hard read because one, its the ramblings of narcissistic egomaniac who has no concept of what is real and lies and it was held in a bar in Mar-A-Largo so the transcript is missing words here and there

One particular quote that made me giggle is what he said of the Chinese President Xi. "He treated me better than anybody’s ever been treated in the history of China. You know that."

In the History of China............My wish for the new year is obviously for him and his cronies, Jnr, Kusher, Millar, Sessions, etc etc to get prosecuted and kicked out sooner rather than later. I have no doubt that they will get done but I'm hoping that it will be done ASAP because he is doing real damage to Middle East peace and in Korea who knows what the F**k he will do here.

I also pity the poor in America because they are staring down the barrel of "entitlement" reform (don't like that word) and having their medical insurance taken off them along with lots of other things. I pity immigrants in America who face deportation, very sad considering America is built on immigrants. And obviously is you are colored because Trump is a proven racist you cannot expect any help from this admin.

Hopefully the electorate will wake up especially the minorities as proven in Alabama and the GOP will be wiped out in November.

ECO_Mental · 29-12-2017 1:54pm

Trump has a new Enemy.....Wait for it The US POST OFFICE.....

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946728546633953285

Hande hoche! · 29-12-2017 1:58pm

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Trump has a new Enemy.....Wait for it The US POST OFFICE.....

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946728546633953285

Who knows? Maybe Jeff Bezos is about to have a bad year....

Leroy42 · 29-12-2017 2:02pm

ECO_Mental wrote: »

Trump has a new Enemy.....Wait for it The US POST OFFICE.....

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946728546633953285

Why does he ask Twitter? I mean he is POTUS, he can simply call up the head of USPS and ask them.

A leader with no answers. How brilliant for everyone.

PopePalpatine · 29-12-2017 3:21pm

Hande hoche! wrote: »

Who knows? Maybe Jeff Bezos is about to have a bad year....

Well, Bezos is the "failing" Washington Post's owner, you might be onto something there.

Akrasia · 29-12-2017 3:21pm

For Forks Sake wrote: »

Trump tweeting about climate change while playing golf in Florida, what do you do with this level of wilful ignorance?

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/946531657229701120

Meanwhile Trump's golf course in Doonbeg Co. Clare has been granted permission to build a sea wall to protect the golf course from rising sea levels and increasingly powerful storms associated with climate change.

Trump is prepared to spend 10 million to protect his asset from global warming, but doesn't seem to care about the untold millions of people who could have their property and homes destroyed by that same sea level rise that he is making worse by opening up more land to oil exploration and pulling back on commitments to reduce US CO2 emissions.

Leroy42 · 29-12-2017 3:44pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Meanwhile Trump's golf course in Doonbeg Co. Clare has been granted permission to build a sea wall to protect the golf course from rising sea levels and increasingly powerful storms associated with climate change.

Trump is prepared to spend 10 million to protect his asset from global warming, but doesn't seem to care about the untold millions of people who could have their property and homes destroyed by that same sea level rise that he is making worse by opening up more land to oil exploration and pulling back on commitments to reduce US CO2 emissions.

Its obvious the guy is trolling, in this and many of his tweets. He knows that it plays out as smart to his base, with the added benefit of driving all the lefties crazy.

They instantly retort with facts and figures, as if he is even interested in a discussion. It comes from his entitled life. He gets whatever he wants regardless of how people feel.

The change is that his decisions now have an impact not only on the entire US, but the world. But he doesn't think like that. He only thinks about what satisfies himself.

The Jerusalem move. IMO, he doesn't really care, but what he does like is that he is being different, he is making the change. People will talk about him because of it.

The Tax reform. Again all about him. 1st what he saves for himself and his family (widening the already generous inheritance tax bands), then what he can save for the people he knows (corporate America). That is might have some short term tax advantage to the middle class is a bonus, but IMO has only come about because it was necessary to get to other tax deductions.

Odhinn · 29-12-2017 4:01pm

ECO_Mental wrote: »

He has to be the most ignorant buffoon of an educated man that has ever graced politics in any democracy ever. ok maybe also Danny Healy Rae but I'm giving him a pass because he never went to an Ivy League college.

The NYT interviewed him yesterday and here is the transcript of that interview, https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/28/us/politics/trump-interview-excerpts.html

Its a hard read because one, its the ramblings of narcissistic egomaniac who has no concept of what is real and lies and it was held in a bar in Mar-A-Largo so the transcript is missing words here and there

One particular quote that made me giggle is what he said of the Chinese President Xi. "He treated me better than anybody’s ever been treated in the history of China. You know that."

In the History of China............My wish for the new year is obviously for him and his cronies, Jnr, Kusher, Millar, Sessions, etc etc to get prosecuted and kicked out sooner rather than later. I have no doubt that they will get done but I'm hoping that it will be done ASAP because he is doing real damage to Middle East peace and in Korea who knows what the F**k he will do here.

.........................().

After this, its hard to imagine worse

"He represents China, I represent the USA, so, you know, there’s going to always be conflict. But we have a very good relationship. People say we have the best relationship of any president-president, because he’s called president also,” Trump told Fox Business Network’s Lou Dobbs in an interview that aired Wednesday night.

“Now some people might call him the king of China,” Trump continued. “But he’s called president. But we have a very good relationship and that’s a positive thing.”
http://time.com/4998720/donald-trump-kind-china-xi-jinping/

Tony EH · 29-12-2017 4:15pm

/\

It's like Lionel Hutz was made President.

Odhinn · 29-12-2017 4:16pm

Tony EH wrote: »

/\

It's like Lionel Hutz was made President.

I might suggest going to youtube and looking for Trump quotes as read by Zap Brannigan. I'd link but they may dissapprove.

recedite · 29-12-2017 4:17pm

Akrasia wrote: »

Meanwhile Trump's golf course in Doonbeg Co. Clare has been granted permission to build a sea wall to protect the golf course from rising sea levels and increasingly powerful storms associated with climate change.

Erosion around the coast in nothing new. Its how cliffs form. It has nothing to do with climate change.
But yeah, I've seen that story doing the rounds. Another classic fake news factoid involving DT, as beloved by the shallow media.

Itssoeasy · 29-12-2017 4:21pm

Reading trumps answers in that ny times article is painful. Can the man not keep to one answer ? He goes all over the place and said three times that he didn't think Roy Moore would win in the same answer.

Akrasia · 29-12-2017 5:43pm

recedite wrote: »

Erosion around the coast in nothing new. Its how cliffs form. It has nothing to do with climate change.
But yeah, I've seen that story doing the rounds. Another classic fake news factoid involving DT, as beloved by the shallow media.

Except that Trump Hotel and golf course used climate change as a justification in their planning application.

http://www.clarecoco.ie/idocswebDPSS/ViewFiles.aspx?docid=356317&format=jpeg

recedite · 29-12-2017 7:51pm

Was climate change mentioned by Clare Co Co in the decision to grant permission?

eire4 · 29-12-2017 8:39pm

Tell me how wrote: »

^^^^^

All of your considerations are based on the understanding that the purpose of the tax bill was to strengthen the American economy.

If you think the purpose was to provide a windfall for large businesses and wealthy individuals, provide some crumbs for middle class to appease them ahead of mid-terms and then 2020 and to provide soundbites to pro-Trump media, it is very straightforward.

Donald J Trump could not care less as to long term prospects of the nation beyond his term (s) (perish the thought).

America is showing itself to be incapable of electing a president, Senate and house who cares more about the country than their own pockets or more presciently, those of their donors.

At least in Ireland, multi-party representation allows for a broader interest.

Your last line is a key there. But in the US that does not exist and that is because the US system is broken and at this point completely corrupted.
Turnout at the last presidential election was 54% and at the last midterms 33% so in short the congress and president that are supposed to represent the US people actually are only elected with the votes of less then half the population. Now some of that is due to rampant voter suppression, corrupt purging of voter roles, gerrymandering of congressional districts etc
But the reality is most of the reason is the system is completely broken and corrupt and a large chunk of Americans have simply given up as the US really is arguably an oligarchy now rather then a democracy and one that is becoming to an extent more and more authoritarian at that as well.

At the local and state as well as federal level there are various laws in place to prevent any alternatives emerging on a national level. Thus the American people are left with 2 corrupt parties. One the Republican party that is completely beholden to the very wealthy and major corporations and another in the Democratic Party that is also beholden to various interest groups. The horrific supreme court decisions on citizens united has meant that wealthy individuals and major corporations can bribe and buy off politicians with impunity and to pretty much an unlimited degree.

In short the US is IMHO not a democracy but an oligarchy where the government has been seized by the wealthy and major corporations to work for them rather then the American people as a whole.

Wildlife Actor · 29-12-2017 10:40pm

recedite wrote: »

Was climate change mentioned by Clare Co Co in the decision to grant permission?

You're the one who called "factoid" so why are you asking?

As I've no life I went a few pages in to that report and found that the erosion was blamed on rising sea levels and increased Atlantic storminess.

Still a" factoid"?

listermint · 29-12-2017 11:29pm

Love nor Money wrote: »

You're the one who called "factoid" so why are you asking?

As I've no life I went a few pages in to that report and found that the erosion was blamed on rising sea levels and increased Atlantic storminess.

Still a" factoid"?

He won't care.he will leg it off for a while then come back in when the topic is changed .

It's quite obvious trump uses things when it suits him and goes against when it doesn't suit him. everything he ever does is for the betterment of trump and trump only.

froog · 29-12-2017 11:51pm

lots of media outlets talking about trump's mental health after that NYT article. honestly i have no time for that kind of stuff. it's the kind of thing we used to be disgusted about coming from the right about hilary. i read the interview, he's as moronic and babbling as he's always been. i don't see any dramatic decline in his mental faculties.

Jamiekelly · 30-12-2017 12:20am

froog wrote: »

lots of media outlets talking about trump's mental health after that NYT article. honestly i have no time for that kind of stuff. it's the kind of thing we used to be disgusted about coming from the right about hilary. i read the interview, he's as moronic and babbling as he's always been. i don't see any dramatic decline in his mental faculties.

The difference is Hilary actually collapsed in public while running so they had a valid cause for concern if she became President. Either way it doesn't matter, if Trumps actions and thoughts right now are him being mentally fit then I'd hate to see how he acts if he does start losing his bearings. It's also noteworthy to mention that him and Reagan were both roughly the same age when they became President and Reagan began showing signs of Alzheimer's disease by the end of his first term. Trump also has an increased risk to it due to his weight and lack of exercise compared to Reagan (Golf isn't exactly the best exercise)

Donald Trump Presidency discussion thread II

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