Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi spoilers from Post 2857

Saruhashi · 24-12-2017 02:13PM

irishman86 wrote: »

Rey was horribly cast, the girl is the most wooden actress ive ever watched. The movie was meh 5/10.
Its funny Disney have released 3 movies and the two about Rey have been tripe where the other movie with a proper female lead was very good
The movies really are boring, they are watchable purely because its Star Wars

I think she is very inconsistent. In some scenes she is brilliant and in others she is very wooden.

I though in the scenes on the island with Luke her acting was at prequel levels of awfulness.

I'm am sure that others disagree.

Yeah, the "Star Wars" label is about all this movie has going for it. It's not surprising that it has a 52% audience score.

Hopefully audiences will begin to see through the slick marketing and maybe after the next 3 or 4 movies they'll take a more interesting approach to Star Wars.

It's currently at the point where as long as the movie has "Star Wars" attached to it they will make tons of money.

People seem delighted that the film is "lifting a casual middle finger to the many fans for whom Star Wars has become a set of sacred texts" but I am not convinced it's a good long-term tactic.

py2006 · 24-12-2017 02:13PM

“The Last Jedi” cut an absolutely ridiculous scene where the Fish Nuns throw a rave – seriously

This is not a joke, whatsoever. The Last Jedi cut a scene that showed the — wait for it — Fish Nuns throwing a rave on Ahch-To. And R2-D2 was invited!

...Rey happens to notice that there’s a fire burning on the far side of the island. She asks Luke what is going on, and Luke explains that a group of “bandits…regularly come back to the island to plunder and kill the [fish nuns].” Rey can’t handle the thought of that (even though the Fish Nuns hate her), so she decides to go and help them out....

“[It’s] not a raiding party, but an actual party, with caretakers celebrating and swinging glow sticks….The caretakers all stop and look at Rey, confused. One of the caretaker motions [to] her glow stick and Rey swings her lightsaber, imitating her movements, and sighs. The caretakers resume partying. Rey spots Chewbacca sitting at the party with a bunch of Porgs and R2-D2 (wearing a festive necklace). ‘Seriously?’ Rey says to Chewie before storming out to find Luke.”

david75 · 24-12-2017 02:19PM

py2006 wrote: »

“The Last Jedi” cut an absolutely ridiculous scene where the Fish Nuns throw a rave – seriously

...Rey happens to notice that there’s a fire burning on the far side of the island. She asks Luke what is going on, and Luke explains that a group of “bandits…regularly come back to the island to plunder and kill the [fish nuns].” Rey can’t handle the thought of that (even though the Fish Nuns hate her), so she decides to go and help them out....

Tbh I wish we got more of luke and Rey on the island.

Saruhashi · 24-12-2017 02:24PM

pumpkin4life wrote: »

Spot on and what I think is happening is the growing gap between those who write and perform the arts and those who consume it.

When I was in university, the guys who were budding writers, filmmakers and painters were all these very left wing, liberal, SJWie (I know, but its a good word in this context) people whose main commonality was creating great works of art. Great in this context means filling your art with commentary on Trump, environmentalism, gay lads and gay wans, feminism and all of that craic, because art needs to make commentary on the world and this need to be done at the cost of story. They then sell it to other lads under the header of "subversion" or being edgy. That article there by david75 has a passage on how the casino scene is social commentary on inequality in capitalism. A bloody Star Wars movie. Mark Kermode likes it and other lads like it and all is well I suppose and its much cleverer than those Justice League fans who like Transformers as well, bunch of eejits like.

Then most people who consume these movies want the big flashy special effects and the hero's story, good verses evil, that's it.

This disparity is beginning to alienate people in my opinion. Between the excessive budgets in Hollywood movies as well as falling cinema attendances (the Coen Brothers took the piss out of this in last years very good Hail Caeser!) and the competition from Netflix and whathaveyou and between the Weinstein crap right now, I wonder is Hollywood setting itself up for a nasty fall in the next few years. People are coming out of this movie with the feeling of "lads, something wasn't right there" and that's one of the reasons why.

That's another reason why this movie is so interesting to me as well.

Yes! This really resonates with a lot of things I had been thinking in the aftermath of this film too.

So many different people coming out and trying to almost "claim" Star Wars as their own when TFA was released. Now TLJ has the appearance of actively trying to pander to those groups when it may not actually be doing so.

Parts of the article that david75 shared really stood out to me.

Fascist aesthetics […] flow from (and justify) a preoccupation with situations of control, submissive behavior, and extravagant effort; they exalt two seemingly opposite states, egomania and servitude. The fascist dramaturgy centers on the orgiastic transactions between mighty forces and their puppets. Its choreography alternates between ceaseless motion and a congealed, static, “virile” posing. Fascist art glorifies surrender; it exalts mindlessness: it glamorizes death.

It is difficult indeed to deny the dominance of precisely this kind of fascist aesthetic not just in Star Wars, but across Hollywood action movies as a whole.

Perhaps the big question, then, is whether it is even possible for a franchise like Star Wars to rid itself of its own latent fascism. I would argue that this is where Johnson takes important steps in the right direction.

I get a sense here that people see a massive cultural icon like Star Wars as something they can co-opt to bring their political views to a wider audience while also giving weight to the idea that their ideology is the correct one.

Then you have stuff like this:

Rogue One also went further in its subversive representation of geopolitics. It offered an unambiguous response to the pathetic fanboys associated with 4chan, MRA movements, and the “alt-right,”

Which almost makes you feel like you'd want to be careful with criticism of Star Wars going forward.

How many movies have we seen over the last 2 or 3 years that come attached with some variation on "The Alt Right and Internet Trolls hate this movie"?

pumpkin4life · 24-12-2017 02:27PM

Meanwhile:

:D:D

Wibbs · 24-12-2017 02:28PM

david75 wrote: »

Really interesting review/read on the film but also the gender and racial politics being included in the film and the dialogue around it.
https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/the-last-jedi-saving-the-star-wars-we-love/

Good Jesus. That's just as dumb and just as much an imported US idiocy politics as those eejits flipping out about diversity.

The author is a near cartoon stereotype. Parents who disapproved of Star Wars because they were "pacifists and radical activists". Damned hippies etc... Of course this stereotype thinks the flic "subversive". He thinks TLJ is "a film that struggles to distance itself from the most toxic elements of Star Wars in order to chart a more progressive terrain". Right on man. Or something.

He goes on to speak of Rogue One though his political lens: Even if its notoriously troubled production resulted in a film that was less sure-footed than its predecessor, it left no doubt about its ideological agenda: released just weeks after the election of Donald Trump, the film drew a clear distinction between the Empire as a gang of fascist white supremacists and the Rebellion’s embattled coalition of oppressed minorities.

On TFA itself #sobravesubversive, he thinks it;

"an impeccably structured sequence of close calls, countdowns, and double bluffs distracts us from what is ultimately a deceptively simple plot".

"impeccably structured" it's all over the damn place and demonstrably so. Crazily so for such a big budget flic. But that's apparently completely ignored because it suits his politics.

the film’s dizzying 150 minutes of mythological reinvention, character development, good-natured humor, and breathtakingly staged action sequences is the degree of critical self-reflection that Johnson has woven into his thematically rich screenplay.

Did he see the same flic as the rest of us?

Then we get;

"we shouldn’t have to settle for Rey as simply a “female Luke”; her gender becomes meaningful only if and when it challenges the way capitalism’s violent and oppressive structures of patriarchal power have been deeply embedded in the Star Wars narrative."

Aye those damn patriarchies and fat cat capitalists.

This is where The Last Jedi makes a far more substantial effort to champion and incorporate real feminist values than either of its recent-era predecessors. Not content to merely include competent female action heroes like Rey or authoritative female leaders like General Leia Organa, Johnson’s film repeatedly opposes male characters’ impulsive and presumptuous actions with alternatives supplied by their female counterparts.

:pac::pac::pac:
Cos men are dumb and women so wise as a given of course. Yeah that makes great sense to make one gender the daft as the new narrative. Really worked out well in the past. Not. Though maybe he missed the bit where Dern's character came up with a truly stupid plan. Didn't suit I suppose. Actually that part was more egalitarian, more real, as she acted daftly regardless of her gender and sought redemption in hyperspace torpedo mode.

Never mind that he views Star Wars as being latently fascist. Yep. This gobsh1te even wheels out the daftness de jour of "toxic masculinity".

He - and he doesn't seem to be alone - views this film as low level propaganda For The Cause. And as he writes the Radical Left cause. And one could argue that it is, given the writers and director would likely find many agreement points with Hippie child. If it is low level propaganda then it has all the gravitas of a state political flic(whose supporters always ignore the godawful art behind it).

Though I would see it as far more about economics and marketing and covering all bases. That's the real reason why "diversity" and all that is "in". It aims to get more diverse bums on seats. It's why Lando Calrissian made an appearance in ESB. At the time Lucas caught flak for the all white cast. Lando was a token. One that worked, but...

This isn't a review of a film, it's just as much US based political signalling and statement as any of the 4Chan muppets who have a meltdown if there's a woman in shot.

nix · 24-12-2017 02:30PM

Greyfox wrote: »

True it had a few minor flaws

Threads greatest understatement detected

:pac:

david75 · 24-12-2017 02:34PM

Tbh forcing current political flavours of the month into Star Wars from either direction the feminazis or the alt right is bullsh!t. None of that stuff belongs in Star Wars. None of it is in there to begin with. These loons on extreme ends of both sides just try to politicise anything they can and Star Wars just seems to be the topic of the day and they’re running with it.

Wibbs · 24-12-2017 02:34PM

py2006 wrote: »

“
...Rey happens to notice that there’s a fire burning on the far side of the island. She asks Luke what is going on, and Luke explains that a group of “bandits…regularly come back to the island to plunder and kill the [fish nuns].” Rey can’t handle the thought of that (even though the Fish Nuns hate her), so she decides to go and help them out....

Interesting nod to the historical aspect of the Skellig islands when they were a remote monastery refuge at the end of the world, who still had to deal with viking raids from time to time.

py2006 · 24-12-2017 02:43PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Interesting nod to the historical aspect of the Skellig islands when they were a remote monastery refuge at the end of the world, who still had to deal with viking raids from time to time.

Intentional?

Saruhashi · 24-12-2017 02:48PM

david75 wrote: »

Tbh forcing current political flavours of the month into Star Wars from either direction the feminazis or the alt right is bullsh!t. None of that stuff belongs in Star Wars. None of it is in there to begin with. These loons on extreme ends of both sides just try to politicise anything they can and Star Wars just seems to be the topic of the day and they’re running with it.

Finally we can agree on something!

My initial thought after the movie was that the political messages within were delivered with all the subtlety of a brick to the head.

In hindsight though I feel like it's external media sources that almost act as a primer for the audience to see things that might not be there.

Canto Bight is a good example. It seems perfectly obvious in the SW universe that there are people who build and sell these weapons, we even see it in the prequels. It follows that these people are baddies and that they would be rich. There is nothing in that side plot that is not "Star Wars". Sure it's more Prequel Star Wars than Good Star Wars but it's still Star Wars-ish.

Then everyone comes charging in to say "LOOK the new Star Wars confirms my views on certain things and that's why it's awesome".

This is why I'd be VERY f'ing cautious about giving the Alt-Right a single mention in any of these articles because while the SJW angle might be "everyone celebrate Star Wars is with us now" you can be sure that the Alt-Right angle will be "see, look at all these articles, even Star Wars hates you now, why not join us?"

As much as this film didn't sit right with me and I doubt I'll see it again until it's on Sky (where I will surely criticize it all over again) I do not want to "own" Star Wars for myself or have it only pander to people like me. Nobody should own it and it should always be something for everyone.

Wibbs · 24-12-2017 02:50PM

david75 wrote: »

Tbh forcing current political flavours of the month into Star Wars from either direction the feminazis or the alt right is bullsh!t.

I agree.

None of that stuff belongs in Star Wars.

I agree 100%

None of it is in there to begin with.

Well on this score one D could easily argue that the current flic is more on the "progressive" spectrum. Far more. Hippie radical left boy writer didn't invent anything he saw on screen and his conclusions mostly stick*, but a centrist would have to twist themselves in knots to see it agree with their middle of the road position and a "alt right" type would have to watch an entirely different flic(hence they seem to hate everything about it).

I didn't find the obvious politicking to bad. Mainly because it's obvious and expected. I found the actual story and how that story was told disjointed and at times puzzlingly amateur. I mean I despise the politics that gave rise to and was supported by "Triumph of the Will", but it's an epic piece of pure filmmaking(if overly long).

*describing the original Star Wars as a fascist flic was beyond dribbling on oneself moronic. Lucas pushed for the Empire to be as nazi like as possible, because they were the bad guys and there had to be no doubt on that score(Doctor Who's Daleks got a very similar, even more overt treatment in the early 70's before Star Wars). Duh #dribbles. Their uniforms, the dark vibe. Even the title stormtroopers, is a German military title; sturmtruppen (though from the first world war). We cheer and are meant to cheer for the rebels the good guys, the non nazis. Like Spielberg and others of his generation Lucas had grown up in the immediate post war we beat the nazi's America. It very much informed their worldviews and how they approached and made films. Would he accuse Steven of the same? Good luck with that. Dribbling idiot.

david75 · 24-12-2017 02:55PM

Saruhashi wrote: »

Finally we can agree on something!

My initial thought after the movie was that the political messages within were delivered with all the subtlety of a brick to the head.

In hindsight though I feel like it's external media sources that almost act as a primer for the audience to see things that might not be there.

Canto Bight is a good example. It seems perfectly obvious in the SW universe that there are people who build and sell these weapons, we even see it in the prequels. It follows that these people are baddies and that they would be rich. There is nothing in that side plot that is not "Star Wars". Sure it's more Prequel Star Wars than Good Star Wars but it's still Star Wars-ish.

Then everyone comes charging in to say "LOOK the new Star Wars confirms my views on certain things and that's why it's awesome".

This is why I'd be VERY f'ing cautious about giving the Alt-Right a single mention in any of these articles because while the SJW angle might be "everyone celebrate Star Wars is with us now" you can be sure that the Alt-Right angle will be "see, look at all these articles, even Star Wars hates you now, why not join us?"

As much as this film didn't sit right with me and I doubt I'll see it again until it's on Sky (where I will surely criticize it all over again) I do not want to "own" Star Wars for myself of have it only pander to people like me. Nobody should own it and it should always be something for everyone.

Exactly. THe alt right particularly make me laugh. They miss the entire point about the empire basically being nazis that only hire white human males.

Oh I give up it’s all so weird. All these agendas will fade eventually. I find both extremes of it as nauseating as the other.

david75 · 24-12-2017 02:59PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I agree. I agree 100% Well on this score one D could easily argue that the current flic is more on the "progressive" spectrum. Far more. Hippie radical left boy writer didn't invent anything he saw on screen and his conclusions mostly stick*, but a centrist would have to twist themselves in knots to see it agree with their middle of the road position and a "alt right" type would have to watch an entirely different flic(hence they seem to hate everything about it).

I didn't find the obvious politicking to bad. Mainly because it's obvious and expected. I found the actual story and how that story was told disjointed and at times puzzlingly amateur. I mean I despise the politics that gave rise to and was supported by "Triumph of the Will", but it's an epic piece of pure filmmaking(if overly long).

*describing the original Star Wars as a fascist flic was beyond dribbling on oneself moronic. Lucas pushed for the Empire to be as nazi like as possible, because they were the bad guys and there had to be no doubt on that score(Doctor Who's Daleks got a very similar, even more overt treatment in the early 70's before Star Wars). Duh #dribbles. Their uniforms, the dark vibe. Even the title stormtroopers, is a German military title; sturmtruppen (though from the first world war). We cheer and are meant to cheer for the rebels the good guys, the non nazis. Like Spielberg and others of his generation Lucas had grown up in the immediate post war we beat the nazi's America. It very much informed their worldviews and how they approached and made films. Would he accuse Steven of the same? Good luck with that. Dribbling idiot.

A lot of SW pods I listen to actually noticed the hard messaging about the weapons sales/people getting rich off others misery aspect but they don’t at all see it as it relates to their own country which I found amusing but not unexpected. Americans even at their most enlightened and educated are utterly myopic about who their viewed internationally.

But the commentary on the arms industry is a little too real world messaging. It’s place in the canto bight sequence seems to be why most people don’t like that sequence tbh haha

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:03PM

Pal of mine had an interesting take. It feels more like ‘the last Jedi :a Star Wars story’ than it does Star Wars the last Jedi. Not totally unfair but I think it speaks more to our expectations of what Star Wars is or should be. Rians literally upended every single aspect of that and I think it’s great. It’s not a reset. But it’s a rewiring of our view of Star Wars rather than Star Wars itself being rewired. It’s a bold move and probably best for the franchise rather than have it be plodding along repeating itself with poorer and poorer results each time.

Who can know how this will be looked back on but you can’t argue that it wasnt brave. Time will tell of it was foolish but I Think this one will rise in people’s estimatioons given time.

Drumpot · 24-12-2017 03:10PM

Some amount of over thinking this movie on here. It’s Star Wars , not Schindler’s list!

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:12PM

Finally.

Mark Hamill Wants To Set The Record Straight On Star Wars: The Last Jedi

http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/mark-hamill-loves-last-jedi-calls-rian-johnsons-padawan-star-wars-last-jedi/

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:18PM

Drumpot wrote: »

Some amount of over thinking this movie on here. It’s Star Wars , not Schindler’s list!

Well Star Wars fun is speculating In universe and theorising. That’s the fun of it for me. But all this bullsh!t outside of it especially in terms of any political agenda is completely fudiculous. {fvcking ridiculous}

irishman86 · 24-12-2017 03:20PM

Greyfox wrote: »

Nonsense, her and Finn are perfectly cast, she was superb in TFA

I really really enjoyed the film, it's a film that has to be watched on a big screen and was a lot of fun. True it had a few minor flaws, Kylo Ren is only an ok baddie and the story was average but there was never a point in the film where I felt bored.

Ah stop buddy shes terrible, if thats your definition of superb maybe read what the definition of what it actually means. You can enjoy the movie all you wish that doesnt make it good.
With a terrible female lead like Rey your going to get at best a meh movie

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:25PM

irishman86 wrote: »

Ah stop buddy shes terrible, if thats your definition of superb maybe read what the definition of what it actually means. You can enjoy the movie all you wish that doesnt make it good.
With a terrible female lead like Rey your going to get at best a meh movie

Man on internet says Rey is terrible.

Rey must be terrible. Film must be terrible.

Tony EH · 24-12-2017 03:27PM

david75 wrote: »

But the commentary on the arms industry is a little too real world messaging. It’s place in the canto bight sequence seems to be why most people don’t like that sequence tbh haha

Actually thought the arms dealers commentary and its duplicitous nature was relavtively well handled. Not only was it a comment on real world factors that neither side of politics can deny, but it opened out the story of just how the First Order were able to gear up militarily. Something that was sorely lacking in 'The Force Awakens'.

Tony EH · 24-12-2017 03:30PM

david75 wrote: »

Finally.

Mark Hamill Wants To Set The Record Straight On Star Wars: The Last Jedi

http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/mark-hamill-loves-last-jedi-calls-rian-johnsons-padawan-star-wars-last-jedi/

I'd say that, more than likely, Hammil got a nod from Disney to quit the "Not my Luke skywalker" schtick and to "get on board", if he wants to keep riding the SW money train.

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:33PM

Tony EH wrote: »

I'd say that, more than likely, Hammil got a nod from Disney to quit the "Not my Luke skywalker" schtick and to "get on board", if he wants to keep riding the SW money train.

Tbh I think he’s responding to the endless YouTube clips that have taken that quote and edited out the rest of his sentence. Clickbait bullsh!tters. He’s not afraid of Disney particularly as he’s now out of the picture. It’s as likely he won’t force ghost appear in 9 as it is.

irishman86 · 24-12-2017 03:36PM

david75 wrote: »

Man on internet says Rey is terrible.

Rey must be terrible. Film must be terrible.

I said film was meh.
And you have possibly the weakest argument ive ever come across
How about you add a little more instead of just a pathetic superfan type comment

Tony EH · 24-12-2017 03:38PM

david75 wrote: »

Tbh I think he’s responding to the endless YouTube clips that have taken that quote and edited out the rest of his sentence. Clickbait bullsh!tters. He’s not afraid of Disney particularly as he’s now out of the picture. It’s as likely he won’t force ghost appear in 9 as it is.

He mightn't be afraid of Darth Mickey, but he likes the shillings all the same and I've no doubt there are some serious promotion clauses in every single contract that's been signed for these films.

Hammil got the call..."stop dissing the film Mark. Have you seen the YouTube videos? I refer you to paragragh 12, subsection 8 of your contract..." :pac:

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:38PM

irishman86 wrote: »

I said film was meh.
And you have possibly the weakest argument ive ever come across
How about you add a little more instead of just a pathetic superfan type comment

Sorry. What would be the point? I’m not into ‘arguing’ with clearly insecure thread tourists.

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:40PM

Tony EH wrote: »

He mightn't be afraid of Darth Mickey, but he likes the shillings all the same and I've no doubt there are some serious promotion clauses in every single contract that's been signed for these films.

Hammil got the call..."stop dissing the film Mark. Have you seen the YouTube videos? I refer you to paragragh 12, subsection 8 of your contract..." :pac:

Haha. Very likely

ilhis quote has been edited and posted everywhere possible by click bait sites though. He doesn’t wanna hits the hand that feeds him you’re right but his comment was changed and misconstrued

Wibbs · 24-12-2017 03:42PM

david75 wrote: »

Finally.

Mark Hamill Wants To Set The Record Straight On Star Wars: The Last Jedi

http://wegotthiscovered.com/movies/mark-hamill-loves-last-jedi-calls-rian-johnsons-padawan-star-wars-last-jedi/

I also suspect that's more of a "quiet word" was had. Mark has been always very straight talking in interviews in general. Not the usual read from the studio script kinda guys and gals usually trotted out and has said more than once on both this and TFA that he had a few head scratching moments over the direction the franchise was taking.

The writer of that article reckoned this: Call me crazy, but I’m confident that one day, The Last Jedi is going to be considered in the same breath as The Empire Strikes Back as the very pinnacle of Star Wars quality, OK. You're crazy.

It doesn't come close to bearing any comparison and that isn't nostalgia talking. ESB puts nary a foot wrong(save for IMHO the treatment of Leia) in telling a story and telling it extremely well, with flash bangs when needed and subtlety when needed, with near letter perfect pacing and no jarring inconsistencies of plot or character or tone. TLJ does pretty much none of that.

Drumpot · 24-12-2017 03:46PM

david75 wrote: »

Well Star Wars fun is speculating In universe and theorising. That’s the fun of it for me. But all this bullsh!t outside of it especially in terms of any political agenda is completely fudiculous. {fvcking ridiculous}

Exactly. Division on where the story is being taken is one thing, going into political debate is ridiculous!

david75 · 24-12-2017 03:49PM

Wibbs wrote: »

I also suspect that's more of a "quiet word" was had. Mark has been always very straight talking in interviews in general. Not the usual read from the studio script kinda guys and gals usually trotted out and has said more than once on both this and TFA that he had a few head scratching moments over the direction the franchise was taking.

The writer of that article reckoned this: Call me crazy, but I’m confident that one day, The Last Jedi is going to be considered in the same breath as The Empire Strikes Back as the very pinnacle of Star Wars quality, OK. You're crazy.

It doesn't come close to bearing any comparison and that isn't nostalgia talking. ESB puts nary a foot wrong(save for IMHO the treatment of Leia) in telling a story and telling it extremely well, with flash bangs when needed and subtlety when needed, with near letter perfect pacing and no jarring inconsistencies of plot or character or tone. TLJ does pretty much none of that.

I’m not sure. Empire comparisons are lazy aspirations. I’d like to think it’ll be seen as brilliant as it on it’s own terms.
Hopefully the next season of Rick and Morty has an episode where they come back from the future and confirm TLJ is lauded as best of them all

It’s a skit I can see them doing actually

Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi *spoilers from Post 2857*

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Star Wars Episode VIII - The Last Jedi spoilers from Post 2857