When an under-age girl has a relationship with a man.

political analyst · 22-12-2017 07:09PM #1

The following scenario is the basis for this OP:

A 15-year-old girl becomes pregnant by a man in his early 20s with whom she has a relationship. The child dies shortly after birth. Then the couple conceive another child before she is 17 years old - the age of consent in the Republic.

Before the legislation on mandatory reporting of allegations of child abuse was introduced, was there a legal or ethical on obligation on doctors, nurses and civil registrars to report the offence known in law as defilement of a child under the age of 17 years in cases like the above scenario?

Gatling · 22-12-2017 07:12PM

Not before the Kilkenny abuse enquiry back in the early nineties ,
But the 20 year old . sleeping with a child is still sick and very wrong

The_Valeyard · 22-12-2017 07:12PM

Well, dont be in your 20s sleeping with a 15 year old.

ToddyDoody · 22-12-2017 07:15PM

In this day and age we generally frown upon that sort of thing?

13 was fine back in medieval times, mind. (12 was the legal age for girls)

political analyst · 22-12-2017 07:15PM

Gatling wrote: »

Not before the Kilkenny abuse enquiry back in the early nineties ,
But the 20 year old . sleeping with a child is still sick and very wrong

It certainly is. But I'm talking about something much more recent.

_Whimsical_ · 22-12-2017 07:16PM

political analyst wrote: »

The following scenario is the basis for this OP:

A 15-year-old girl becomes pregnant by a man in his early 20s with whom she has a relationship. The child dies shortly after birth. Then the couple conceive another child before she is 17 years old - the age of consent in the Republic.

Before the legislation on mandatory reporting of allegations of child abuse was introduced, was there a legal or ethical on obligation on doctors, nurses and civil registrars to report the offence known in law as defilement of a child under the age of 17 years in cases like the above scenario?

I'd imagine not. A boy under 17 who has sex with a girl below the age of consent would be equally culpable of the crime of statutory rape in the eyes of the law as a man of 20 something . Teenage girls have been getting pregnant for years and I don't know of any situation where a doctor, teacher or healthcare professional has intervened.

JiminyRickets · 22-12-2017 07:16PM

Know of a father who banged up the teenage daughters mate....wife leaves and the pregnant teenager moves into the house with the friend and dad/father.

Just when you think all those Jeremy kyle eejits are actors...you hear stuff like that. Amazing.

s7ryf3925pivug · 22-12-2017 07:16PM

I would consider it unethical to have ignored that from a position of responsibility... Don't know if there was a relevant code of ethics or something, if that's what you mean

Owryan · 22-12-2017 07:17PM

political analyst wrote: »

The following scenario is the basis for this OP:

A 15-year-old girl becomes pregnant by a man in his early 20s with whom she has a relationship. The child dies shortly after birth. Then the couple conceive another child before she is 17 years old - the age of consent in the Republic.

Before the legislation on mandatory reporting of allegations of child abuse was introduced, was there a legal or ethical on obligation on doctors, nurses and civil registrars to report the offence known in law as defilement of a child under the age of 17 years in cases like the above scenario?

Even before mandatory reporting came in there was a legal obligation to report where there was a belief a child was being abused.

Based purely in my experience of working in a social work department and seeing reports on just such a scenario.

_Whimsical_ · 22-12-2017 07:21PM

Owryan wrote: »

Even before mandatory reporting came in there was a legal obligation to report where there was a belief a child was being abused.

Based purely in my experience of working in a social work department and seeing reports on just such a scenario.

But we couldn't say this was necessarily abuse. The OP describes the people involved as a couple who went on to have further children. If it's a clear cut case of abuse it's much easier for professionals to report but where is presented as a relationship it's more difficult. This situation would probably be seen more like a case of statutory rape where a male has sex with a girl under the legal age of consent even if she is willing.

political analyst · 22-12-2017 07:21PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I'd imagine not. A boy under 17 who has sex with a girl below the age of consent would be equally culpable of the crime of statutory rape in the eyes of the law as a man of 20 something . Teenage girls have been getting pregnant for years and I don't know of any situation where a doctor, teacher or healthcare professional has intervened.

But a man would get a more severe penalty. In the so-called "Romeo and Juliet case" in which the Supreme Court ruled that the criminalisation of the boy for full sexual intercourse while not criminalising the girl was justified, the boy got a six-month suspended sentence and was not placed on the sex offenders register - the girl said she did not agree to have sex with the boy. The DPP has discretion in cases where both parties are under the age of consent.

political analyst · 22-12-2017 07:25PM

Owryan wrote: »

Even before mandatory reporting came in there was a legal obligation to report where there was a belief a child was being abused.

Based purely in my experience of working in a social work department and seeing reports on just such a scenario.

Is that with regard to reckless endangerment - an offence created in law in 2006? The offence "misprision of felony" disappeared because of the abolition of the misdemeanour/felony distinction in the 1990s.

Owryan · 22-12-2017 07:25PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

But we couldn't say this was necessarily abuse. The OP describes the people involved as a couple who went on to have further children. If it's a clear cut case of abuse it's much easier for professionals to report but where is presented as a relationship it's more difficult. This situation would probably be seen more like a case of statutory rape where a male has sex with a girl under the legal age of consent even if she is willing.

When is sleeping with a 15yo not abuse? Especially if the other person is an "adult". Or are you saying because they are in a relationship it's somehow different?

Professor Moriarty · 22-12-2017 07:25PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

I'd imagine not. A boy under 17 who has sex with a girl below the age of consent would be equally culpable of the crime of statutory rape in the eyes of the law as a man of 20 something . Teenage girls have been getting pregnant for years and I don't know of any situation where a doctor, teacher or healthcare professional has intervened.

Not if they are the same age. Nor would a 15 year old girl/boy having sex with a 14 year old girl/boy be considered equally culpable as a 20 year old having sex with a 15 year old.

_Whimsical_ · 22-12-2017 07:26PM

political analyst wrote: »

But a man would get a more severe penalty. In the so-called "Romeo and Juliet case" in which the Supreme Court ruled that the criminalisation of the boy for full sexual intercourse while not criminalising the girl was justified, the boy got a six-month suspended sentence and was not placed on the sex offenders register - the girl said she did not agree to have sex with the boy. The DPP has discretion in cases where both parties are under the age of consent.

That's true, there would be a more severe penalty but if a 15yr old girl and a man within a 10 yr age gap arrived at a doctor or hospital and presented themselves as in a relationship I don't think professionals would immediately decide this was clear cut abuse. I haven't heard of them reporting cases like this as statutory rape either. I think they more tended to stay out of it.

political analyst · 22-12-2017 07:27PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

But we couldn't say this was necessarily abuse. The OP describes the people involved as a couple who went on to have further children. If it's a clear cut case of abuse it's much easier for professionals to report but where is presented as a relationship it's more difficult. This situation would probably be seen more like a case of statutory rape where a male has sex with a girl under the legal age of consent even if she is willing.

But professionals couldn't ignore it, could they?!

The correct term is "defilement". A boy could still be charged and convicted on a charge of common-law rape if the girl said he forced himself on her.

_Whimsical_ · 22-12-2017 07:28PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Not if they are the same age. Nor would a 15 year old girl/boy having sex with a 14 year old girl/boy be considered equally culpable as a 20 year old having sex with a 15 year old.

Culpable was the wrong word there, but they're be seen as equally guilty of the crime. The sentence or punishment would differ but you'd be equally within your rights to report on both instances and to expect a prosecution.

pickarooney · 22-12-2017 07:29PM

Every time I look at this thread the title seems to change from 'man (14)' now to 'man (18)'

Permabear · 22-12-2017 07:30PM

This post has been deleted.

Owryan · 22-12-2017 07:30PM

political analyst wrote: »

Is that with regard to reckless endangerment - an offence created in law in 2006? The offence "misprision of felony" disappeared because of the abolition of the misdemeanour/felony distinction in the 1990s.

There is a criminal justice act 2012 (i think) that legislates for failing to report suspected abuse.

Professor Moriarty · 22-12-2017 07:32PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Culpable was the wrong word there, but they're be seen as equally guilty of the crime. The sentence or punishment would differ but you'd be equally within your rights to report on both instances and to expect a prosecution.

Yeah it's very subjective. Not sure how far you'd get though if there was say 6 months between them and it was consensual. Nor should law be involved perhaps.

_Whimsical_ · 22-12-2017 07:32PM

Owryan wrote: »

When is sleeping with a 15yo not abuse? Especially if the other person is an "adult". Or are you saying because they are in a relationship it's somehow different?

Nope I'm not saying that. I'm saying doctors etc don't seem to report on clear-cut instances of statutory rape so I'd be surprised if they'd report abuse in the same situation unless there were other factors definitely pointing in that direction.
I don't think it's ok at all that anyone sleeps with a 15 year old.

Owryan · 22-12-2017 07:33PM

_Whimsical_ wrote: »

Culpable was the wrong word there, but they're be seen as equally guilty of the crime. The sentence or punishment would differ but you'd be equally within your rights to report on both instances and to expect a prosecution.

There is consideration that if there is not more than a 2 year age gap then there may not be any proscecution but I'm hazy on the details

Professor Moriarty · 22-12-2017 07:34PM

Owryan wrote: »

There is a criminal justice act 2012 (i think) that legislates for failing to report suspected abuse.

Children First act (2015) is the latest legislation.

political analyst · 22-12-2017 07:35PM

pickarooney wrote: »

Every time I look at this thread the title seems to change from 'man (14)' now to 'man (18)'

If the male is at least 18 years old, I refer to him as a man.

Permabear · 22-12-2017 07:36PM

This post has been deleted.

_Whimsical_ · 22-12-2017 07:37PM

political analyst wrote: »

But professionals couldn't ignore it, could they?!

The correct term is "defilement". A boy could still be charged and convicted on a charge of common-law rape if the girl said he forced himself on her.

I don't think they're ignore it now. Id hope not. However before manditory reporting it would be up to the descretion of the professionals involved and if they were satisfied that the girl want coerced etc they usually left it be I'd say. They're definition of "satisfied" would probably not be mine though. I'm sure some would be happy with saying "you weren't forced were you?" or "do you love him" etc.

weldoninhio · 22-12-2017 07:39PM

political analyst wrote: »

It certainly is. But I'm talking about something much more recent.

In Vatican City the age of consent is 18. Unless you are married then it’s 14 for girls and 16 for boys. Which is a bit crazy.

_Whimsical_ · 22-12-2017 07:40PM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

That's probably exactly why there is less reporting expect in very clear cut circumstances. There was a time in Ireland where girls hid pregnancies and gave birth to babies only to leave them to die of abandon them because they feared what it would mean for their place in society or their relationship because of social or religious pressures. Id say you walk a very fine line with girls of that age in such a vulnerable position. You can't isolate them from the help they need and it probably means overlooking things sometimes.

weldoninhio · 22-12-2017 07:41PM

ToddyDoody wrote: »

In this day and age we generally frown upon that sort of thing?

13 was fine back in medieval times, mind. (12 was the legal age for girls)

14 is legal in Germany, Italy and Portugal.

Owryan · 22-12-2017 07:42PM

Professor Moriarty wrote: »

Children First act (2015) is the latest legislation.

I'm aware of that but the 2012 legislation was in reference to where the power to proscecute non reporting of suspected abuse

When an under-age girl has a relationship with a man.

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