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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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    #932
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    Anita Blow wrote: »
    In fairness to Volchitsa he didn't just pull that example out of his ass. It's a textbook example of a psychotic delusion. An absurd belief held with 100% certainty.

    His belief that his world was falling apart and as a result he needed to kill his family could be seen as a psychotic delusion.

    It's being argued that he wouldn't be able to perform a murder like this while suffering from delusions. That's not true.


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    #933
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users Posts: 1,970 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    Probably not a delusion, he could easily be about to lose his family and his reputation. He was unable to accept that.


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    #934
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    He said he didn't have mental issues. .....

    Can you please link to where I said that?
    Thanks.


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    The expert says that he had a severe depressive illness with elements of psychosis.
    demfad wrote: »
    Only one expert came to that conclusion. His doctor and counsellor came to a completely different conclusion.
    An expert in domestic violence would see it differently also.
    No doubt an expert in family annihilation would have seen this as a text book case. A man has a sense of 'family ownership' and massive ego about his 'masculinity' as reflected by his 'pillar of society' and 'family man' status.
    When this all-precious image is about to be shatterred he decides to check out and take his belongings with him.


    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/alan-hawe-had-depressive-symptoms-for-almost-a-decade-inquest-told-1.3332363
    Alan Hawe’s counsellor David McConnell said he had seen him over 10 sessions, the final one on the same day his GP was visited by him for the last time - June 21st, 2016.
    Mr McConnell said nothing Alan Hawe disclosed to him during the sessions suggested he was about to harm himself or anyone else.

    But please, quote where I stated that Hawe did not have any mental issues, which is what you have repeated several times here. Go ahead.


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    #935
    tayto lover
    Registered Users Posts: 51,652 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    So you think he lied?
    It is quite possible he could have been mistaken or even fooled too.


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    #936
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    My point was that you'd be amazed how well you can hide something even in distress.


    Planning isn't evidence of anything.

    He doesn't have to be hollering gibberish in the streets to be mentally ill. He suffered from depression in his 20s and all his cousillor said was that he never indicated he would harm anyone. So there's history and he was receiving treatment again.

    If the recent revelation is true, coupled his depressive state and a bad personality it could be how we ended up here unfortunately.

    Can you provide any evidence that shows that depression or mental illness makes you more likely to harm someone?
    AFAIK People with mental illness are far more likely to be harmed by other people than to harm someone.
    But you've said youre informed about mental illness and thus implied you're not prejudiced against the mentally ill. Please fill us in.


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    #937
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    demfad wrote: »
    Can you please link to where I said that?
    Thanks.




    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/coroner-s-court/alan-hawe-had-depressive-symptoms-for-almost-a-decade-inquest-told-1.3332363


    But please, quote where I stated that Hawe did not have any mental issues, which is what you have repeated several times here. Go ahead.


    You're holding up the therapists evidence (not conclusion) that he never disclosed that he would harm his family or himself that it somehow refutes Proffessor Kennedy's conclusion. How is that a reasonable stance?

    You have used the therapists testimony several times throughout this thread that Alan Hawe did not suffer mental illness even though he was seeing a therapist regarding mental illness.

    Perhaps you mean psychosis. It's not my fault you see mental illness as an all encompassing sickness and not a spectrum of hundreds of illnesses.


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    #938
    Anita Blow
    Registered Users Posts: 1,933 ✭✭✭Anita Blow


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    His belief that his world was falling apart and as a result he needed to kill his family could be seen as a psychotic delusion.

    It's being argued that he wouldn't be able to perform a murder like this while suffering from delusions. That's not true.
    It wouldnt be a delusion because A) he questioned it being psychotic and B) the degree of planning. Both of which show he had insight. Diagnosis of psychosis is one of exclusion and require 100% certain belief as well as impaired insight.

    A psychotherapist would also pick up on this absolutely.

    It's not that one can't murder while under the influence of a delusion, it's that the circumstances of the murder suggest that psychosis wasn't the cause


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    #939
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    volchitsa wrote: »
    And he can't give a diagnosis based on someone else's notes without ever meeting the person.

    I genuinely think this psychiatrist has gone way beyond their professional boundaries, like the Sally Clark case in England, where the doctor, an eminent professor, misused statistics to "prove" she had killed her children when it was completely untrue.

    That is a fairly serious accusation to make against the Director of the Central Mental Hospital who was carrying out his duties, and did so at the request of the Cororner.


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    #940
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,212 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Is the porn stuff being reported anywhere other than the sun?

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



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    #941
    Dial Hard
    Registered Users Posts: 13,473 ✭✭✭✭Dial Hard


    GLaDOS wrote: »
    Is the porn stuff being reported anywhere other than the sun?

    Irish Times reporting that he had accessed porn and was "obsessed" with people finding out about it. Absolutely nothing about him doing it at work, though.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suicide-note-shows-catalogue-of-issues-troubled-hawe-1.3334479


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    #942
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    demfad wrote: »
    Can you provide any evidence that shows that depression or mental illness makes you more likely to harm someone?
    AFAIK People with mental illness are far more likely to be harmed by other people than to harm someone.
    But you've said youre informed about mental illness and thus implied you're not prejudiced against the mentally ill. Please fill us in.

    The vast majority of people in general don't harm others, mental issues or not. These cases are extremely rare but when an event like this occurs there is almost always a history of mental illness, it's a link worth investigating.


    Not shoving under the carpet and concluding that he did this just because he was evil. You can look into a mental health aspect without excusing the action.

    The jury's reccomendation, after hearing all evidence, to raise awareness for mental health in the work place is to be dismissed as lies an unprofessionalism too I suppose?

    Anyway I hope some answers come out of all of this that help prevent this from happening again.


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    #943
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    tayto lover wrote: »
    It is quite possible he could have been mistaken or even fooled too.

    Remember he was asked to give an assessment.
    His assessment was 'more likely than not' so would be hardly admissable even in a court as credible evidence. It is a hypothesis.

    An expert in family annihilation would look for a controlling type, a patriarcal figure, a marriage break up, a fall from grace and make his/her conclusions with far more certainty.

    An expert in domestic violence could similarly identify the patterns and testimonies of control and manipulation and conclude likewise.

    Again a look at the conclusions of the British study bears this out
    Conclusions:

    Our research suggests that family annihilators should be seen as a distinct
    category of murderer, of which there are specific subcategories. What
    seems to link each of the subcategories that we have identified is masculinity
    and the need to exert power and control in situations when the
    annihilator feels that his masculinity has, in some way, been threatened    .
    For these men, the family role of the father was fundamental to their
    masculine identities         and, prior to the murders, the family had, to some
    extent, ceased to perform its masculinity-affirming functions for them    .
    Murder, or more bluntly, family annihilation, thus emerges in this sense as
    a resource to perform masculinity, when other resources have failed, are
    seen as being inadequate, or do not deliver the desired outcomes. In this
    way the annihilation makes public what had often been a private reality –
    a reality masked to family, friends and neighbours who often thought that
    this man had been a ‘doting’ and ‘loving’ father and ‘dutiful’ husband    .
    Sadly, we suggest that this is a trend which seems to be increasing.
    However, our observations are a weak basis on which to consider what can
    be done to reduce the incidence of family annihilation. After all, children
    will be – and still should be – given access to estranged fathers, the vast
    majority of whom would never dream of attacking or killing their children.
    Marriages and relationships will continue to dissolve. What, therefore, can
    be done? Clearly, this is a simple question to ask, but a much more difficult
    one to answer. However, the beginnings of such an answer must relate to
    gender and a recognition that it is, in the main, men who use violence and
    will take the lives of their children in this way.

    The role of 'Father' was fundamental to Hawe's masculine identity: a small reminder "Alan was steeped in the noble traditions of family".
    The family ceased to perform this function for him. So he exerted the last piece of control he thought he had over them: to take their lives.
    As the expert analysis quoted suggests: the public who thought him a loving father etc. were publicly confronted with the private reality of Hawe's world.

    Our society almost let Hawe get away with this: Anyone who questioned the good man who cracked story was attacked. Remember the church put out a 13 priest and bishop show of strenght for his mass in Kilkenny. This is the society that creates men like Alan Hawe.

    A society that was truly equal and intolerant of domestic violence and misogyny would be a cold place for someone like him.

    He may have been anxious about his upcoming fall from Grace. But he held his beliefs about his family long before that and what drove him to murder them was his view that it was his deep belief in his 'view' of father that it was right to do so.


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    #944
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    The vast majority of people in general don't harm others, mental issues or not. These cases are extremely rare but when an event like this occurs there is almost always a history of mental illness, it's a link worth investigating.


    Not shoving under the carpet and concluding that he did this just because he was evil. You can look into a mental health aspect without excusing the action.

    The jury's reccomendation, after hearing all evidence, to raise awareness for mental health in the work place is to be dismissed as lies an unprofessionalism too I suppose?

    Anyway I hope some answers come out of all of this that help prevent this from happening again.

    There have been studies. So the British one in this post. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105620275&postcount=944

    Mental illness is the principle factor in only 5% of cases.
    Marriage breakup in 2 in every 3. A patriarcal, 'family owenrship' worldview was the prevalent common attribute of the killers.


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    #945
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    demfad wrote: »
    Remember he was asked to give an assessment.
    His assessment was 'more likely than not' so would be hardly admissable even in a court as credible evidence. It is a hypothesis.

    An expert in family annihilation would look for a controlling type, a patriarcal figure, a marriage break up, a fall from grace and make his/her conclusions with far more certainty.

    An expert in domestic violence could similarly identify the patterns and testimonies of control and manipulation and conclude likewise.

    Again a look at the conclusions of the British study bears this out



    The role of 'Father' was fundamental to Hawe's masculine identity: a small reminder "Alan was steeped in the noble traditions of family".
    The family ceased to perform this function for him. So he exerted the last piece of control he thought he had over them: to take their lives.
    As the expert analysis quoted suggests: the public who thought him a loving father etc. were publicly confronted with the private reality of Hawe's world.

    Our society almost let Hawe get away with this: Anyone who questioned the good man who cracked story was attacked. Remember the church put out a 13 priest and bishop show of strenght for his mass in Kilkenny. This is the society that creates men like Alan Hawe.

    A society that was truly equal and intolerant of domestic violence and misogyny would be a cold place for someone like him.

    He may have been anxious about his upcoming fall from Grace. But he held his beliefs about his family long before that and what drove him to murder them was his view that it was his deep belief in his 'view' of father that it was right to do so.

    I remember a mother jumped off Wexford bridge with her two kids years ago also. Was seen a huge tragedy with tributes left right for the mother.

    Sympathy isn't exclusive to male murderers.


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    #946
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    demfad wrote: »
    There have been studies. So the British one in this post. https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=105620275&postcount=944

    Mental illness is the principle factor in only 5% of cases.
    Marriage breakup in 2 in every 3. A patriarcal, 'family owenrship' worldview was the prevalent common attribute of the killers.

    And a history of mental illness? That just implies there was an episode of mental illness at the time of the crime.


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    #947
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    That is a fairly serious accusation to make against the Director of the Central Mental Hospital who was carrying out his duties, and did so at the request of the Cororner.

    As far as I know his conclusions were not concrete but just a 'more likely than not' hypothesis. The inquest is not supposed to look for motive so perhaps the coroner has some questions to answer for muddying the waters with this testimony.


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    #948
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    And a history of mental illness? That just implies there was an episode of mental illness at the time of the crime.

    Why don't you have a read yourself and let us know?


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    #949
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As much as I think the act was pure evil, and that there's something in a person to begin with that enables them to consider it as a course of action, if Prof Kennedy and the professionals who reviewed his records can tell us that he acted while suffering from severe mental illness, then I'll take their word for it. They're the experts, we aren't.

    Doesn't make the act less evil, or erase any other torment he put the family through, but if he was sick then he was sick and can't be considered in the same light as someone who did it for the thrills or to just protect a reputation.

    Those poor kids.


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    #950
    volchitsa
    Registered Users Posts: 7,044 ✭✭✭volchitsa


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    That is a fairly serious accusation to make against the Director of the Central Mental Hospital who was carrying out his duties, and did so at the request of the Cororner.

    I realize that, which is why I gave a proven example of that having happened before. It does happen, especially in court cases where there is pressure to give an answer, whereas doctors tend to deal in probabilities.

    Nobody has given the slightest evidence that it is professional conduct to diagnose a person without ever meeting them, or even meeting their families, and apart from this case I am unable to find any examples on the Internet of where a forensic scientist has done such a thing.

    I'd be interested if anyone has any knowledge of such a thing having happened before.

    So I think that makes this look like an instance where - if the psychiatrist has been accurately reported - he seems to have well gone beyond what is reasonable extrapolation.


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    #951
    demfad
    Registered Users Posts: 3,182 ✭✭✭demfad


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    I remember a mother jumped off Wexford bridge with her two kids years ago also. Was seen a huge tragedy with tributes left right for the mother.

    Sympathy isn't exclusive to male murderers.

    I never said it was. I did and do maintain that those showing sympathy for Alan Hawe may have to look at their worldview.


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    #952
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    demfad wrote: »
    I never said it was. I did and do maintain that those showing sympathy for Alan Hawe may have to look at their worldview.

    I genuinely haven't seen a single person show sympathy for him.


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    #953
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    demfad wrote: »
    Why don't you have a read yourself and let us know?

    So you quote a section that has no relevance to what I said and then get snotty when I ask where's the part that's actually relevant?


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    #954
    bobsman
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭bobsman


    Dial Hard wrote: »
    Irish Times reporting that he had accessed porn and was "obsessed" with people finding out about it. Absolutely nothing about him doing it at work, though.

    https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/suicide-note-shows-catalogue-of-issues-troubled-hawe-1.3334479

    The Irish Times article seems to be the most revealing.

    Hawe was angsting over an encounter with a girl years ago. Also guilt over porn. It was nothing illegal. Anxiety over people not saluting him in the street.

    There appears to be no actual "fall from grace":confused:

    However, his act was so barbaric, clinical, so difficult to comprehend.


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    #955
    bobsman
    Registered Users Posts: 296 ✭✭bobsman


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    I genuinely haven't seen a single person show sympathy for him.

    I think (just my opinion) that it is the way he murdered Clodagh and the boys. If it was a more "humane" killing (whatever that is!). It is the savagery which people struggle with.


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    #956
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,108 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    bobsman wrote: »
    I think (just my opinion) that it is the way he murdered Clodagh and the boys. If it was a more "humane" killing (whatever that is!). It is the savagery which people struggle with.

    In my opinion people are struggling with the planning aspect of it too .The closed curtains , the weapons ready , the path cleared of furniture , the eldest first , the financial affairs sorted , the written notes etc .It wasnt an impulsive action that followed a snapping of a mind and people will struggle with that and find it abhorrent .


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    #957
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    iamwhoiam wrote: »
    In my opinion people are struggling with the planning aspect of it too .The closed curtains , the weapons ready , the path cleared of furniture , the eldest first , the financial affairs sorted , the written notes etc .It wasnt an impulsive action that followed a snapping of a mind and people will struggle with that and find it abhorrent .
    However a methodical approach does match up with what's being described in the papers - obsession over his public appearance, over events of years past, anxiety, paranoia. Points to someone meticulous & obsessive. I wouldn't be surprised if they found detailed diaries and other well-kept records going back a long time.

    (Note: I can't see the Irish Times article).


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    #958
    Valmont
    Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Mental health campaigners want to have their cake and eat it too. They want us to excuse people from moral culpability if a psychiatrist or GP says they were mentally ill - implying this person had no control over their actions which were in fact determined by a brain disease. However they will be then quick to cry foul and moan about 'stigmatisation' if it's claimed that mentally ill people could actually be dangerous because of their mental illness. Either they are compelled to things they have no control over because of their disease or they don't - you can't have it both ways.
    The director of the Central Mental Hospital simply told people what they wanted to hear - that Alan Hawe did what he did because he was sick. This makes some people feel better and helps them sleep at night but it isn't really an explanation whatsoever. It's extremely easy to say someone was psychotic after they do something psychotic, especially when your medical speciality involves having to produce no physical evidence whatsoever (brain scans, blood samples, e tc). What people don't realise is that saying someone is 'depressive with psychotic symptoms' has no predictive validity whatsoever in terms of whether they are likely to do anything violent. 
    With mental illness--sorry, mental health problems, or whatever the new term is--we are basically dealing with glorified star signs.


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    #959
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    kfallon wrote: »
    No set of circumstances can absolve or justify a man person from killing his own wife & children, especially as it was premeditated!

    Do you agree with my corrected statement?

    There are plenty of recent cases of women killing their child or children that were copiously excused in the media due to mental health issues. "She must have been mentally ill or under huge strain to kill her children" ... have yet to read one story where the mother was labelled a monster.

    For example : https://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/criminal-court/woman-described-son-2-as-fake-child-before-killing-him-1.3093350

    And the priest saying he was a "pillar of the community" (paraphrasing) - sure they say that about everyone. I've yet to hear a priest saying he was a "right bastard" at a funeral.

    From how has been portrayed in the media, if taken at face value, he was a monster, and I would agree 100% in his vilification, but it's very difficult to believe anything the media says anymore as I've seen so many things so badly misrepresented lately.

    He had been attending a psychiatrist, so he knew that there was something badly wrong with him. There must be some doubt around the murder/suicide theory if they are exhuming him.


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    #960
    iamwhoiam
    Registered Users Posts: 16,108 ✭✭✭✭iamwhoiam


    professore wrote: »
    Do you agree with my corrected statement?



    He had been attending a psychiatrist, so he knew that there was something badly wrong with him. There must be some doubt around the murder/suicide theory if they are exhuming him.

    He was exhumed a few months after the funeral at the request of Clodaghs family as they did not want him in the family grave .


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    #961
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    professore wrote: »
    There must be some doubt around the murder/suicide theory if they are exhuming him.
    You might want to catch up on the aul thread there.

    He was exhumed and reburied months ago. The parish priest pressured the family into burying them all together, and when it became clear that he had butchered them all senselessly, her family removed him from the grave and his family cremated him.


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