Off Topic Thread 3.0

dregin · 20-12-2017 12:53PM

pickarooney wrote: »

**** it, I'll have to text her to say I've created the thing then. Seems a bit redundant.

No swinging or anything, just tedious childcare arrangements.

Actually,I think you can set the calendar to notify calendar members by mail when an event is created. Boards still doesn't allow you to paste images from the clipboard? Welcome to 2005.

20-12-2017 01:20PM

I don't know how it works, but someone sent me a meeting invite via Gmail last week and my phone went off 15 mins before the meeting was to take place as a reminder. Is that the sort of thing you're talking about?

swiwi_ · 20-12-2017 02:05PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Good man. Never swing in front of the kids

Don’t mind swinging in front of the kids myself.

Avoid the merry-go-round though, leaves me dizzy...

Synode · 20-12-2017 05:10PM

Got my water charges refund today. What a mess. It must have cost close to a billion at this stage. I still blame (some of) the population. The Government were right to introduce charges

mfceiling · 20-12-2017 05:13PM

Synode wrote: »

Got my water charges refund today. What a mess. It must have cost close to a billion at this stage. I still blame (some of) the population. The Government were right to introduce charges

We got ours 2 weeks ago. Good friend of mine got a tax refund of €3110 last week. The following day he got a letter from his bank offering him €13,000 for the tracker mortgage debacle. And a very happy Christmas to you too!!

irishbucsfan · 20-12-2017 05:30PM

Synode wrote: »

Got my water charges refund today. What a mess. It must have cost close to a billion at this stage. I still blame (some of) the population. The Government were right to introduce charges

The government were completely wrong with how they were introduced and when they were introduced. Even if perhaps they were forced to introduce them (that just extends the blame upwards).

Neil3030 · 20-12-2017 05:37PM

mfceiling wrote: »

We got ours 2 weeks ago. Good friend of mine got a tax refund of €3110 last week. The following day he got a letter from his bank offering him €13,000 for the tracker mortgage debacle. And a very happy Christmas to you too!!

What a mcfeeling, he must be dancing on the mfceiling!

sydthebeat · 20-12-2017 05:37PM

Synode wrote: »

Got my water charges refund today. What a mess. It must have cost close to a billion at this stage. I still blame (some of) the population. The Government were right to introduce charges

i think the sensible majority would be in agreement with that, however how the government went about the process was what peed off a hell of a lot of that sensible majority.

No allowance was made for the fact that a "certain portion" of tax was already being used to pay for water. Put on top of that the "off the books when suits, but on the books when suit" type of set up that they created with irish water. the bonus culture, the comparatively high management salaries and the bloated working numbers... for what ended up being, as a lot of people muted at the time, a paper thin net layer of bureaucracy spanning over the local authorities.

I work with irish Water quite frequently in planning applications... and the set up now exists where the local authorties request us to get into contact with Irish Water for information regarding water connections.... to which, unbelievably, irish Water have to contact the local authorities to get this information. I sh!t you not.

Zzippy · 20-12-2017 05:39PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The government were completely wrong with how they were introduced and when they were introduced. Even if perhaps they were forced to introduce them (that just extends the blame upwards).

I agree with the user pays principle, but the fact that water was already paid for through general taxation meant they needed to be a lot smarter about how they introduced water charges. After all the USC, pay cuts, bank bailouts etc people were fed up, and while the water charge was miniscule by comparison to some other increases, the idea of double taxation was the straw that broke the camel's back and gave opposition parties the ammunition to mount a huge, and ultimately successful campaign.

Neil3030 · 20-12-2017 05:41PM

Water charges helped insulate Ireland from far-right populism, as it gave all communities a common enemy.

It's the classic Kelso trick from Scrubs, when he took the muffins out of the canteen to stop them bickering about the Iraqi war.

(I'm sure our proportionally minuscule levels of immigration also contributed, I just prefer the Water Charges narrative!).

irishbucsfan · 20-12-2017 05:50PM

Zzippy wrote: »

I agree with the user pays principle, but the fact that water was already paid for through general taxation meant they needed to be a lot smarter about how they introduced water charges. After all the USC, pay cuts, bank bailouts etc people were fed up, and while the water charge was miniscule by comparison to some other increases, the idea of double taxation was the straw that broke the camel's back and gave opposition parties the ammunition to mount a huge, and ultimately successful campaign.

And the fact we were in the middle of a massive recession and a massively misplaced (that ultimately failed) austerity regime. Meant we were threatening consumers, already at their lowest levels of confidence, with extra taxes at a time when we were attempting to encourage spending (spending which ironically was supposed to be paying for water). And not to mention one of the major (supposed) aims of an austerity regime is to inspire confidence in future lower levels of government spending, meanwhile we were setting up an obviously incompetent Irish Water body which served the opposite effect. The whole thing was a disaster and could only ever have cost the state money.

It was all shockingly managed unfortunately, on top of the rest of what the people ended up having to pay.

Synode · 20-12-2017 05:51PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

The government were completely wrong with how they were introduced and when they were introduced. Even if perhaps they were forced to introduce them (that just extends the blame upwards).

Yeah I'd agree with that. They made an absolute balls of it

Synode · 20-12-2017 05:52PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

and a massively misplaced (that ultimately failed) austerity regime

How so? Lenders very quickly regained confidence (when we cut our cloth and pledged not to burn any debt holders) and we ultimately got back to borrowing at favourable rates. None of that would have been possible had we continued spending at unsustainable levels

irishbucsfan · 20-12-2017 06:06PM

Synode wrote: »

How so? Lenders very quickly regained confidence (when we cut our cloth and pledged not to burn any debt holders) and we ultimately got back to borrowing at favourable rates. None of that would have been possible had we continued spending at unsustainable levels

Lenders regained confidence once Mario Draghi gave them their confidence back by turning the ECB into a functioning central bank, "whatever it takes" was all he needed to say, it had nothing to do with austerity and nothing to do with our spending.

The European banking crisis was a private sector collapse. Nothing to do with public spending, our net debt to GDP was 12% (much lower than, for example, Germany's). It was turned into a public sector collapse in order to protect the banking industry from collapsing across the continent as the value of the collateral that was being used by major European banks (our bonds) collapsed. All of that would have been avoided if Draghi's predecessor, Trichet, had done what Draghi did. But we now know there was a threat of legal action from Germany that might have destroyed the currency that prevented Trichet from doing that.

Zzippy · 20-12-2017 06:10PM

Synode wrote: »

How so? Lenders very quickly regained confidence (when we cut our cloth and pledged not to burn any debt holders) and we ultimately got back to borrowing at favourable rates. None of that would have been possible had we continued spending at unsustainable levels

Austerity is just a means of funneling taxpayers money to private entities in a recession. Its like trickle down economics - a deeply flawed and ultimately futile economic theory that enriches wealthy people at the expense of everyone else. The only reason it persists is lobbying by corporations and the 1% who can afford to fund it. Look at the current American tax pan for the worst possible example.

Neil3030 · 20-12-2017 06:10PM

<sniff> <sniff>

I smell graphs...

<sniff> <sniff>

And their getting closer!

<runs and hides>

irishbucsfan · 20-12-2017 06:12PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Austerity is just a means of funneling taxpayers money to private entities in a recession. Its like trickle down economics - a deeply flawed and ultimately futile economic theory that enriches wealthy people at the expense of everyone else. The only reason it persists is lobbying by corporations and the 1% who can afford to fund it. Look at the current American tax pan for the worst possible example.

It's actually a really interesting topic, "why it exists". There's some interesting research in America being done now into answering the question of why people keep voting for things that aren't in their best interest. Same question about Trump, whether people just prefer a crazy chancer to a competent liar.

Synode · 20-12-2017 06:13PM

So what yous are saying is, if I ever lose my job, I should go out and spend more money instead of less. That and the lizard people were behind me losing my job :pac:

Podge_irl · 20-12-2017 06:15PM

Zzippy wrote: »

Austerity is just a means of funneling taxpayers money to private entities in a recession. Its like trickle down economics - a deeply flawed and ultimately futile economic theory that enriches wealthy people at the expense of everyone else. The only reason it persists is lobbying by corporations and the 1% who can afford to fund it. Look at the current American tax pan for the worst possible example.

What does the current American tax plan have to do with austerity?

irishbucsfan · 20-12-2017 06:21PM

Synode wrote: »

So what yous are saying is, if I ever lose my job, I should go out and spend more money instead of less. That and the lizard people were behind me losing my job :pac:

No. Because when you cut down on your expenses your income isn't affected. Which is class. That's why it's class to be a private individual, we're all legends in complete control.

But that's not how countries operate. And it's even less how the eurozone operates. If a country decides that everyone is going to start saving money at the same time, total expenditure falls. And that is not class. It's very very not class. And when the entire continent does it all at the same time (which happened in the 1920s and in 2009), it's even less class because trade disappears and noone's austerity works.

And that is why your personal life is not a useful tool on which to model the finances of the state. As much as some political parties (Christian democrats in Germany and their Swabian housewife) might want you to think it is.

Zzippy · 20-12-2017 06:27PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

It's actually a really interesting topic, "why it exists". There's some interesting research in America being done now into answering the question of why people keep voting for things that aren't in their best interest. Same question about Trump, whether people just prefer a crazy chancer to a competent liar.

Lack of education and the obscene amount of money in politics and advertising.

Podge_irl wrote: »

What does the current American tax plan have to do with austerity?

Well, firstly it was more to do with trickle down economics - it's a tax cut for the wealthiest, with the rationale that the wealthyhaving more money will create more jobs and wealth for everyone. It's bull****. But re austerity, the current tax plan will create a huge budget deficit (1.4 trillion extra or something like that). That's when you'll see the Republicans calling for cuts to social security, Medicare and Medicaid programs, public spending, etc to address the deficit that they created themselves. It's already happening, Paul Ryan is already talking about a deficit and how they need to cut spending. It's possibly the most corrupt piece of legislation I've ever read about in a supposed democracy.

Synode · 20-12-2017 06:58PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

No. Because when you cut down on your expenses your income isn't affected. Which is class. That's why it's class to be a private individual, we're all legends in complete control.

But that's not how countries operate. And it's even less how the eurozone operates. If a country decides that everyone is going to start saving money at the same time, total expenditure falls. And that is not class. It's very very not class. And when the entire continent does it all at the same time (which happened in the 1920s and in 2009), it's even less class because trade disappears and noone's austerity works.

And that is why your personal life is not a useful tool on which to model the finances of the state. As much as some political parties (Christian democrats in Germany and their Swabian housewife) might want you to think it is.

Government spending is not enough to sustain an economy so either way, a recession was happening. Personally I don't think it makes sense to maintain/increase spending at a time when the cost of borrowing money has gone through the roof, as was the case for Ireland. Maybe in big capital projects that would bring benefits down the road. Certainly not for the inflated pensions and wages of (some) civil servants

20-12-2017 07:41PM

I had booked to see Star Wars this afternoon as I planned on taking a half day and finishing for the week. I'm still in work. I've to come in tomorrow. Bah Humbug.

irishbucsfan · 20-12-2017 10:28PM

Synode wrote: »

Government spending is not enough to sustain an economy so either way, a recession was happening. Personally I don't think it makes sense to maintain/increase spending at a time when the cost of borrowing money has gone through the roof, as was the case for Ireland. Maybe in big capital projects that would bring benefits down the road. Certainly not for the inflated pensions and wages of (some) civil servants

Government spending is not enough to sustain an economy no, but it never needed to be. That was never going to be the situation.

The reason the cost of borrowing was so high was because the bond market wasn't backed. Ever since the introduction of the Euro they've been very cheap, but when it looked like the ECB wouldn't defend them they started to go up in periphery states. When Draghi introduced OMTs (a week after giving the above speech) the bond markets went straight down again. Should never have been a problem in the first place.

By the time that had happened they managed to take the massive amount of private sector debt and put it on the balance sheet of the state, leaving you and me to pay it off for a very long time.

molloyjh · 21-12-2017 12:54AM

Just on the “paying for water twice” idea....we got a tax cut in the budget the same year that the charges were introduced.

Synode · 21-12-2017 02:20AM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Government spending is not enough to sustain an economy no, but it never needed to be. That was never going to be the situation.

The reason the cost of borrowing was so high was because the bond market wasn't backed. Ever since the introduction of the Euro they've been very cheap, but when it looked like the ECB wouldn't defend them they started to go up in periphery states. When Draghi introduced OMTs (a week after giving the above speech) the bond markets went straight down again. Should never have been a problem in the first place.

By the time that had happened they managed to take the massive amount of private sector debt and put it on the balance sheet of the state, leaving you and me to pay it off for a very long time.

Can you blame them for delaying declaring backing of the bonds? They needed to see that the 'peripheral' countries were making the reforms needed to ensure the loans were repayed. If you were a German taxpayer, how confident would you have been in Ireland if we turned around and said we're going to keep spending like we have been? There was no way the bigger economies could get that past their electorate, who would have been underwriting the risk.

Maintaining and increasing spending might work in big, strong economies like Germany, France, and the Netherlands. But it's unworkable in a country like Ireland with our parish pump politics and apparent inability to plan for the future effectively.

prawnsambo · 21-12-2017 09:07AM

Zzippy wrote: »

Lack of education and the obscene amount of money in politics and advertising.

I maintain that Americans have been fed bullsh1t for so long that they've developed a taste for it. :rolleyes:

Zzippy wrote: »

Well, firstly it was more to do with trickle down economics - it's a tax cut for the wealthiest, with the rationale that the wealthyhaving more money will create more jobs and wealth for everyone. It's bull****. But re austerity, the current tax plan will create a huge budget deficit (1.4 trillion extra or something like that). That's when you'll see the Republicans calling for cuts to social security, Medicare and Medicaid programs, public spending, etc to address the deficit that they created themselves. It's already happening, Paul Ryan is already talking about a deficit and how they need to cut spending. It's possibly the most corrupt piece of legislation I've ever read about in a supposed democracy.

Corrupt is probably the best word for it. They bought an election and now it's time to pay the piper.

On a somewhat lighter note, there's a theory going around that Trump is determined to wipe Obama's name and (whatever small) achievements he made from the face of American life and politics because of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8TwRmX6zs4

Buer · 21-12-2017 09:16AM

Zzippy wrote: »

the idea of double taxation was the straw that broke the camel's back and gave opposition parties the ammunition to mount a huge, and ultimately successful campaign.

I'm really not sure that the concept of double taxation was at the forefront of a large section of those most opposed to the charges. It was a vehicle for groups to hitch their wagon to and, once it gained a little bit of traction, it became a populist movement for supporters regardless of the finer details.

prawnsambo · 21-12-2017 09:26AM

I see someone in Switzerland won the Euromillions jackpot of €135 million. Swiwi, you know who your friends are.

molloyjh · 21-12-2017 09:52AM

Buer wrote: »

I'm really not sure that the concept of double taxation was at the forefront of a large section of those most opposed to the charges. It was a vehicle for groups to hitch their wagon to and, once it gained a little bit of traction, it became a populist movement for supporters regardless of the finer details.

From the rivers to the sea, Irish water will be free.

Off Topic Thread 3.0

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