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Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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Comments

  • #602
    volchitsa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,094 ✭✭✭✭volchitsa


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Wanting to control your family to the point where you come to the conclusion that the only solution to your problem is to butcher them and hang yourself, is probably indicative of a serious mental health issue.
    His employers apparently had a major issue with him. (I’m trying to read between the lines here, like everyone else).
    He was a national school principal.
    In future, if employees in terribly responsible stressful positions like his are being investigated over serious allegations, maybe a red flag should be raised of some kind regarding possible breakdown ?

    Except you're diagnosing his mental illness in the hindsight of his actions, and by those actions alone.
    There is pretty much nothing else except a couple of bits of speculation. By that logic those violent gangs that terrorize old people are probably mentally ill too. The people that tied up and strangled an old lady last week - mentally ill? You'd have to be, to do that.

    Or evil.

    The people that saw him at the time, including a doctor who knew him well, and a therapist who was aware of his mental issues faced to see any sign of mental illness that would lead to him being violent.

    The one medical person who claims to have diagnosed this is someone who never met him and has the hindsight of what he did. I'd believe the doctor and therapist saw him first - or else they need to be struck off.

    One or other.

    "If a woman cannot stand in a public space and say, without fear of consequences, that men cannot be women, then women have no rights at all." Helen Joyce



  • #603
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    I'm amazed that in Ireland the real reason for his impending 'fall from grace' hasn't materislised.


  • #604
    Charmeleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Charmeleon


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    I'm amazed that in Ireland the real reason for his impending 'fall from grace' hasn't materislised.

    Absolutely, if there was a known ‘dark secret’ it would probably have been out within days and certainly for nothing to come out at the inquest that goes towards motivation seems even more unlikely.


  • #605
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 54,560 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    I'm amazed that in Ireland the real reason for his impending 'fall from grace' hasn't materislised.
    There are rumours aplenty in that area.


  • #606
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    hatrickpatrick wrote: »
    It can also be indicative of a particularly vile human personality trait which involves authoritarianism to the point of literally requiring obedience and compliance from others to avoid an apoplectic eruption of rage. I know people like this, and I do not believe them to be mentally ill - just sh!tty personalities. Possibly crappily brought up, but not mentally incapacitated as such - just egomaniacs who believe that they're oh-so-important and everyone else should bow to them.

    Professor Kennedy drew a different conclusion. His conclusion is the only one that matters.
    Your outrage on behalf of the Coll family is very well intentioned and heartfelt but you can’t really draw on your own personal experience of mental health issues to dismiss his because they aren’t comparable .


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  • #607
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    tayto lover wrote: »
    There are rumours aplenty in that area.

    I’ll bet there are. None of these are helpful to the Colls or the Hawes, but that's human nature.


  • #608
    Asus X540L
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭Asus X540L


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Professor Kennedy drew a different conclusion. His conclusion is the only one that matters.
    Your outrage on behalf of the Coll family is very well intentioned and heartfelt but you can’t really draw on your own personal experience of mental health issues to dismiss his because they aren’t comparable .

    Directors of mental institutions don't have a very good rep.


  • #609
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Professor Kennedy drew a different conclusion. His conclusion is the only one that matters.
    Your outrage on behalf of the Coll family is very well intentioned and heartfelt but you can’t really draw on your own personal experience of mental health issues to dismiss his because they aren’t comparable .

    I read the article. Prof Kennedy's conclusions shed light on Hawe's decision to end his own life, certainly. But they do not shed any light whatsoever on his decision to end the lives of others along with his own. I never suggested that his suicidal ideation was unjustified or that I don't sympathise with suicidal beliefs. but taking others with you is at best a form of "I'm so important that they'll be miserable without me" egomania, and again that in my mind just comes down to being a horrible person.


  • #610
    BowSideChamp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 271 ✭✭BowSideChamp


    Yeah, why did they not read out the suicide letter. Surely, it explains why he did it?


  • #611
    Gael23
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,105 ✭✭✭✭Gael23


    pjohnson wrote: »
    People defending Hawe as being some poor sod with a hard mental ilness is disturbing. How many people with mental health issues manage NOT to massacre their own family. Such a cop out.

    Nobody has condoned what he done, thats impossible. Alan Hawe was severely mentally disturbed which in any crime is a mitigating factor. It in no way makes what he did ok.


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  • #612
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    BowSideChamp wrote: »
    Yeah, why did they not read out the suicide letter. Surely, it explains why he did it?

    Suicide notes are never revealed at inquests.
    It would possibly add terribly to the suffering of the two bereaved families to have that information made public. Some family secrets are best left just that.
    Secret.
    Professor Kennedy examined it and drew his conclusions .


  • #613
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,144 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    tayto lover wrote:
    I don't know if he did or not. He certainly excluded the evidence of the Coll family who said that he never displayed any mental illness or psychotic traits to their knowledge. People who saw him nearly every day.

    That's not to say he excluded it. He concluded differently based on all the evidence including their testimonies. You're wrong to say he excluded it.


  • #614
    splinter65
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,420 ✭✭✭splinter65


    Asus X540L wrote: »
    Directors of mental institutions don't have a very good rep.

    Amongst whom?


  • #615
    hatrickpatrick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Gael23 wrote: »
    Nobody has condoned what he done, thats impossible. Alan Hawe was severely mentally disturbed which in any crime is a mitigating factor. It in no way makes what he did ok.

    It should only be a mitigating factor if it was relevant to the crime committed. For instance: If I hallucinate that my dog is in fact a turtle, that's pretty obviously a form of mental illness. If I go to a shop and shoot the shopkeeper before I steal a whole crapload of booze for the weekend, my delusions about my dog being a turtle have literally nothing to do with my decision to kill someone for some free drink, and therefore should not be regarded as a mitigating factor.

    Depression might explain his own suicidal ideations, but it can never explain his decision to kill others as well. That decision stemmed from the belief that he was so important, so central to their existence, that they were better off dead than living without him. That latter sentiment is not mental illness, it's narcissism. Narcissism is not a mitigating factor in crimes and nor should it be, it's a nasty personality trait which even so, does not remove peoples' ability to tell right from wrong.


  • #616
    El_Duderino 09
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,144 ✭✭✭✭El_Duderino 09


    hatrickpatrick wrote:
    It was the "may they all rest in peace" comment that I was aiming at. May his victims rest in peace, absolutely. May he, on the other hand, find absolutely no rest whatsoever. F*ck him. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as his victims, and certainly not afforded any friendly or sympathetic sentiment.

    Ah, you're looking for something to be upset about here. They're all dead so they're out of it now. The poster hoped they are all resting in peace now which is a simple sentiment.
    hatrickpatrick wrote:
    I don't feel that it should. Depression neither causes nor in any way mitigates acts of sheer unadulterated cruelty. It is in no way a relevant factor beyond possibly explaining his potential motivation.

    Of course it doesn't count and mitigation. You're the only one suggesting it does.


  • #617
    diomed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,744 ✭✭✭diomed


    Who had the idea to dig him up, and why?


  • #618
    brooke 2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    nice_guy80 wrote: »
    he wouldn't be the first or last to do that
    is it a reason to murder your family?

    A 'respected' married teacher getting some young one pregnant? In a small
    rural village where he was a 'pillar of the community', something like that
    would mean the end of his world as he knew it. Perhaps he suspected he
    was going to be suspended from school if he went to that dreaded meeting
    with the Principal? No reason to kill his family, though.


  • #619
    brooke 2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    Sinead Mc1 wrote: »
    Articles which I read back in August stated that Mary Coll said the letter detailed a "fall from grace", one which Clodagh knew nothing about and that she expected this to come out in the inquest.
    I'd like to know. And Clodaghs family think we should know.
    It's not going to explain anything away. Nothing could ever do that.
    But surely correct information is better than everyone assuming "he was mentally ill" or "he wasn't mentally ill".
    I think this case has really frightened people. It's frightened me.
    A pillar of society, no signs of abuse etc. Absolutely no sign of lll behaviour whatsoever.
    I know it's possible,but that, to me, is terrifying.
    If there was something going on that contributed to his state of mind I would like to know what that was.
    This is in the public domain now and I think we do have a right to know.

    Yes, I also had the impression the family thought the cause of his 'fall from grace' would be revealed at the inquest.


  • #620
    Asus X540L
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭Asus X540L


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    No reason to kill his family, though.

    Errr, you don't say...


  • #621
    Asus X540L
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,506 ✭✭✭Asus X540L


    diomed wrote: »
    Who had the idea to dig him up, and why?

    Her family.
    Wouldn't you?


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  • #622
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    diomed wrote: »
    Who had the idea to dig him up

    The families related to those he brutally murdered? Clodagh's family presumably.
    and why?

    Because they didn't want the murderer of their loved-ones buried near his victims like they were a family who died in some tragic accident?

    Lessons should be learned from this on how the media report on these spouse-and-child murderers. The murderer should be referred to only as 'the killer/murderer' and those he/she murdered should retain their names and not be reduced to effective possessions of the murderer 'John Doe killed his wife and his children'.


  • #623
    brooke 2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,472 ✭✭✭brooke 2


    :rolleyes:
    Asus X540L wrote: »
    Errr, you don't say...


  • #624
    Mutant z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,487 ✭✭✭Mutant z


    The only thing what should be done is to set his rotting corpse on fire and flush the ashes down the toilet into the sewer so the rats can piss on it.


  • #625
    Stuckforcash
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭Stuckforcash


    Junkyard Tom wrote: »

    Lessons should be learned from this on how the media report on these spouse-and-child murderers. The murderer should be referred to only as 'the killer/murderer' and those he/she murdered should retain their names and not be reduced to effective possessions of the murderer 'John Doe killed his wife and his children'.

    What so they don't print the killer's name at all?

    I'd definitely want to know the killer's name. Papers should print facts and the fact is that a man murdered his wife and kids. Referring to someone as "my wife" is basic English, "my wife" does not imply ownership, it means that you're married.
    Anyone who notices stuff like that in the face of such a horrendous tragedy just has certain agenda to push at the expense of people who lost their lives.


  • #626
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,115 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    ...

    I think what I wrote has gone over your head. Here, consider this.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=103471215&postcount=179


  • #627
    Intothesea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 540 ✭✭✭Intothesea


    brooke 2 wrote: »
    A 'respected' married teacher getting some young one pregnant? In a small
    rural village where he was a 'pillar of the community', something like that
    would mean the end of his world as he knew it. Perhaps he suspected he
    was going to be suspended from school if he went to that dreaded meeting
    with the Principal? No reason to kill his family, though.


    It's not a reason when you're psycho-normal, which is why most people can't imagine what could drive this person beyond a psychotic break or evil archetype.

    Where a normal person generally fears nothing more than losing their life or the lives of their loved ones, a narcissist, or otherwise perfectly sane but grossly character-impaired individual (any type involving lessened or absent empathy and a solely self-serving politically-engaged mind) fears nothing more than egotistical annihilation.

    In this case, one scenario that fits, and that a large proportion here seem to detect, is the narcissistic logic of topping yourself to avoid the only annihilation that matters, and taking the people that you hate and resent -- and who could put their accounts forward if you left them living -- with you.

    Another aspect that might rankle the subconscious, so to speak, is just how unwilling the local community were to show any aspect of condemnation for this guy. It looks as though he put in a sterling performance upping his reputation in the community (another red flag for narcissism, in light of the end result). The other side of that political brainwashing of outsiders is the relative dimming of his wife's presence and reputation.


    Elsewhere on this thread there's musing about what could define evilness. I think this can only be answered with presence of psychopathy, and degree of narcissism. And just for fun, the picture of the family lined up has a striking symmetry to it: wife and kids are lined up facing one way, and he's turned against them, almost like he's standing beside a new car he's bought... In family pictures, the language of this doesn't make typical sense, I think.

    /0.02


  • #628
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,644 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    El_Duderino 09 wrote: »
    I can't understand what 'evil' adds to the discussion. It's just a word used to describe bad behaviour at the extreme end. It doesn't help to understand it and it certainly doesn't help to prevent it. It's just a red herring

    On the other hand, people tossing in depression as if it causes multiple murder, confusing psychopathy and psychosis, saying "obviously mentally ill" as if mental illness causes carefully planned murders all the time is all very useful and constructive.


  • #629
    nice_guy80
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,722 ✭✭✭nice_guy80


    splinter65 wrote: »
    Amongst whom?

    the families who had to deal with them!


  • #630
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 8,350 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The Star has the letter and no reason was given for the murders. It seems the "fall from grace" was all in his head.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/sorry-for-how-i-murdered-them-all-alan-hawes-final-note-confessing-to-killing-wife-and-three-sons-36423941.html


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  • #631
    Annasopra
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41,232 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Stuckforcash wrote: »
    What so they don't print the killer's name at all?

    I'd definitely want to know the killer's name. Papers should print facts and the fact is that a man murdered his wife and kids. Referring to someone as "my wife" is basic English, "my wife" does not imply ownership, it means that you're married.
    Anyone who notices stuff like that in the face of such a horrendous tragedy just has certain agenda to push at the expense of people who lost their lives.

    It is pretty sickening when a murderer is remembered more than the victims

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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