Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

January · 19-12-2017 06:49PM

reap-a-rat wrote: »

There was another one in Mayo last year as well. A local pillar of the community murdered his wife, tried to murder his son and then committed suicide. The inquest was about a month ago. It's just such a horrific thing to do.

Everyone jumped to the conclusion that the son was to blame in that one too if I'm not mistaken.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 06:56PM

Lollipop95 wrote:

For me, the two kids who murdered James Bulger, a 2 year old and the way they carted it out. To me, that's evil.

As I said, you know it when you see it but does it have any use beyond mental illness? Can evil be studied or understood beyond subjectively pointing to situations and saying 'i think that's evil'?

Isn't it more accurately described as psychopathy? As far as I know ow a child can't be officially diagnosed with psychopathy because they're not finished developing. But the traits of psychopathy and other psychological abnormality can be documented in a useful way. Poining to an incident and declaring it evil is the end of the investigation. It's completely useless.

Lollipop95 wrote:

Interestingly, I watched a video on Facebook of a man who forgave his son's killer. The man (part of a gang) admitted to beating his son to death. When asked how he could forgive him (and even hug him after the tria) the father replied something along the lines like "It was the devil that did this, he got into his mind so I feel pity for him. That's why I forgive him". I can't remember the name of the video but it's an extraordinary watch and makes you realise the extreme faith some people possess

Amazing. Faith isn't knowledge though. I wouldn't trust to faith to help predict or prevent these incidents. That would take knowledge, not faith.

These things used to be seen as demonic possession, fairies, spirits, devils etc. Now we have proper ways to analyse brains those explanations seem ridiculous. It would take a huge amount of faith to believe in all that stuff.

As knowledge increases understanding will change. I'd be shocked if evil or devils are part of a better understanding.

tayto lover · 19-12-2017 06:59PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

But where is the claim that the marriage was going to breakdown coming from? It was not something the family were aware of at the time of this horrific murder? What evidence has emerged that the marriage was breaking down?

The family obviously have knowledge and it will come out in time.
This was only an inquest into the cause of death.
There's a lot not being said but hopefully it will come out in time.

freshpopcorn · 19-12-2017 06:59PM

January wrote: »

Everyone jumped to the conclusion that the son was to blame in that one too if I'm not mistaken.

Yes from what I remember.

kunst nugget · 19-12-2017 07:01PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

But where is the claim that the marriage was going to breakdown coming from? It was not something the family were aware of at the time of this horrific murder? What evidence has emerged that the marriage was breaking down?

Is this something that was in the note left, I wonder. There seems to be some talk of an imminent fall from grace - was it his fear that his marriage would breakdown as a result of what was about to happen rather than his wife looking to leave? Could he fall under the category of paranoid killer when it comes to family annihilators. It could be why Prof. Harry Kennedy attributed psychotic symptoms to a severe depressive episode.

jobbridge4life · 19-12-2017 07:07PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Is this something that was in the note left, I wonder. There seems to be some talk of an imminent fall from grace - was it his fear that his marriage would breakdown as a result of what was about to happen rather than his wife looking to leave? Could he fall under the category of paranoid killer when it comes to family annihilators. It could be why Prof. Harry Kennedy attributed psychotic symptoms to a severe depressive episode.

Again though the references to an imminent fall from grace seems to stem from his remark to his counsellor that:

“‘People think of me as a pillar of the community’.

He paused and said ‘if only they knew’.”

This again is wide open to interpretation. It could have been meant in the sense of 'everyone thinks I have it all, but if they really knew how I felt'... a very common sentiment expressed by the depressed.

As to the notes, I think everyone on this thread would do well to remember that the jury who sat for days considering the harrowing testimony, evidence and expert reports also saw the notes. Importantly having considered all of it they decided to add a recommendation in respect of mental health awareness.

I respect the jurors' decision.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 07:13PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

kunst nugget wrote: »

Is this something that was in the note left, I wonder. There seems to be some talk of an imminent fall from grace - was it his fear that his marriage would breakdown as a result of what was about to happen rather than his wife looking to leave? Could he fall under the category of paranoid killer when it comes to family annihilators. It could be why Prof. Harry Kennedy attributed psychotic symptoms to a severe depressive episode.

Again though the references to an imminent fall from grace seems to stem from his remark to his counsellor that:

“‘People think of me as a pillar of the community’.

He paused and said ‘if only they knew’.”

This again is wide open to interpretation. It could have been meant in the sense of 'everyone thinks I have it all, but if they really knew how I felt'... a very common sentiment expressed by the depressed.

As to the notes, I think everyone on this thread would do well to remember that the jury who sat for days considering the harrowing testimony, evidence and expert reports also saw the notes. Importantly having considered all of it they decided to add a recommendation in respect of mental health awareness.

I respect the jurors' decision.

The jurors conclusion is very interesting since they had all the evidence. Is it normal for a jury to add recommendations like the one on mental illness in this case?

tayto lover · 19-12-2017 07:25PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Again though the references to an imminent fall from grace seems to stem from his remark to his counsellor that:

“‘People think of me as a pillar of the community’.

He paused and said ‘if only they knew’.”

This again is wide open to interpretation. It could have been meant in the sense of 'everyone thinks I have it all, but if they really knew how I felt'... a very common sentiment expressed by the depressed.

As to the notes, I think everyone on this thread would do well to remember that the jury who sat for days considering the harrowing testimony, evidence and expert reports also saw the notes. Importantly having considered all of it they decided to add a recommendation in respect of mental health awareness.

I respect the jurors' decision.

The Jury do not decide the cause of death.
They only rubber stamp the coroner's verdict.
This is not the same kind of jury as you have in a trial.

Nekarsulm · 19-12-2017 07:25PM

jobbridge4life wrote: »

Again though the references to an imminent fall from grace seems to stem from his remark to his counsellor that:

“‘People think of me as a pillar of the community’.

He paused and said ‘if only they knew’.”

This again is wide open to interpretation. It could have been meant in the sense of 'everyone thinks I have it all, but if they really knew how I felt'... a very common sentiment expressed by the depressed.

As to the notes, I think everyone on this thread would do well to remember that the jury who sat for days considering the harrowing testimony, evidence and expert reports also saw the notes. Importantly having considered all of it they decided to add a recommendation in respect of mental health awareness.

I respect the jurors' decision.

I wasn't at the inquest, so I cannot say.
But I did have occasion to attend a full day of inquests in Cavan courthouse several years ago.
They are a strange and curious thing.
You get detailed reports of the weight of the deceased persons liver, brain etc, and other details are skipped over.
In almost every inquest I was present for that day (8 or 9) at least one obvious and glaring question was not asked, leading to more questions than answers.
There is also an element of leading the jury to a conclusion.
Now this Hawe inquest is in the media spotlight, so will have been thoroughly scrutinised and no doubt legal reps. were present for all concerned, but an inquest is still a fairly imprecise instrument.

They set out to determine Who, How, Where and When, but not always Why.

The selection process of an inquest jury is worth a thread in its own right.
In some cases a court official is sent out onto the street to try and persuade a member of the public to come in.
Several retired people in the town seem go be jury junkies, always sitting in.

Dev84 · 19-12-2017 08:18PM

Alan Hawe was pure evil. On a scale like no other. Was he sick? He had no diagnosis at the time so youd have to say no. Any shrink trying to diagnose him now , well the saying " stable door and horse has bolted" comes to mind.

Put whatever name on it you want it doesnt absolve or explain it in anyway.

Sometimes we need to accept
Evil exists.

Avatar MIA · 19-12-2017 08:20PM

Dev84 wrote: »

Sometimes we need to accept
Evil exists.

If you mean some supernatural malevolent force, then no, we really don't.

Dev84 · 19-12-2017 08:22PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

If you mean some supernatural malevolent force, then no, we really don't.

No i mean bad bastards with intent on causing harm to their own flesh and blood.

Avatar MIA · 19-12-2017 08:32PM

Dev84 wrote: »

No i mean bad bastards with intent on causing harm to their own flesh and blood.

Yip, psychopaths exist and do not care about anyone else.

Some of these murders, including mass murders, it's argued is done so that the perpetrator goes beyond a point of no return and are emboldened to commit suicide. Of course, sad as it may appear, it would be better if they did it without creating the carnage.

Dev84 · 19-12-2017 08:34PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

Yip, psychopaths exist and do not care about anyone else.

Some of these murders, including mass murders, it's argued is done so that the perpetrator goes beyond a point of no return and are emboldened to commit suicide. Of course, sad as it may appear, it would be better if they did it without creating the carnage.

Youre a fan of mindhunters?

Avatar MIA · 19-12-2017 08:35PM

Dev84 wrote: »

Youre a fan of mindhunters?

No, but heard about it recently, where someone recommended it. Mockumentary?

Dev84 · 19-12-2017 08:39PM

Avatar MIA wrote: »

No, but heard about it recently, where someone recommended it. Mockumentary?

No its very good. Explores why serial kilkers do what they do etc. Dark but good.

Nettle Soup · 19-12-2017 09:07PM

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

A septic tank is too good for his remains

After hearing about the 800 children buried by the nuns in the septic tank in Tuam, I disagree - Nobody should be "buried" in a septic tank, ever.

splinter65 · 19-12-2017 09:21PM

tayto lover wrote: »

The family obviously have knowledge and it will come out in time.
This was only an inquest into the cause of death.
There's a lot not being said but hopefully it will come out in time.

It might never come out.
Whatever Mrs Coll has been told about her son in laws impending “difficulties” she is certain that it would have meant curtains for the marriage, instantly and irrevocably.
I hope if any one is reading the account of the inquest, and they have a feeling that they may be entering a period of bad mental health, that they would reach out to someone and tell them about the dark thoughts they are having.
Similarly if you are in a relationship and you have any suspicions that your partner is under terrible stress, tell someone you trust.

splinter65 · 19-12-2017 09:26PM

BinLiner2 wrote: »

I'm skeptical of the worth and the purpose of admitting opinion from Professor Kennedy

I noticed that the parents of the perpetrator latched onto it in their statement too

Professor Kennedy is a qualified medical professional, I’m sure a recognized expert in his field.
Why would you be sceptical?

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 09:28PM

Dev84 wrote:

Put whatever name on it you want it doesnt absolve or explain it in anyway.

Sometimes we need to accept Evil exists.

Avatar MIA wrote:

Yip, psychopaths exist and do not care about anyone else.

I can't understand what 'evil' adds to the discussion. It's just a word used to describe bad behaviour at the extreme end. It doesn't help to understand it and it certainly doesn't help to prevent it. It's just a red herring

hatrickpatrick · 19-12-2017 09:29PM

I am so, so sick of seeing mental illness being used as some kind of mitigating factor in cases like these. Depression is a very serious illness and one which has affected me both directly and indirectly, but it does not jeopardise a person's ability to tell right from wrong. I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for victims of suicide - I have known people who have both attempted it and succeeded in doing it. But the minute somebody decides to take another unwilling soul with them, they go from being a sympathetic victim of suicide to a selfish, cowardly piece of sh!t as far as I'm concerned. Whatever Alan Hawe's troubles, and I am not denying that they could easily have been horrific enough to lead him to the awful decision that his life wasn't worth living, his conscious decision to take his wife and children with him automatically and irrevocably erases any and all possibility of him being considered a remotely sympathetic character. In that moment, he chose to behave like an evil scumbag, mentally ill or not. There is no mitigating factor which can lessen that fact.

jobbridge4life · 19-12-2017 09:31PM

tayto lover wrote: »

[/B]
The Jury do not decide the cause of death.
They only rubber stamp the coroner's verdict.
This is not the same kind of jury as you have in a trial.

I was referring to the decision of the jury to advise for greater mental health awareness, at their discretion.

hatrickpatrick · 19-12-2017 09:32PM

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I can't understand what 'evil' adds to the discussion. It's just a word used to describe bad behaviour at the extreme end. It doesn't help to understand it and it certainly doesn't help to prevent it. It's just a red herring

In this case it's merely being used to underscore the lack of sympathy people have with this guy. The word "evil" implies that a person's actions have absolutely no redeeming factors whatsoever, and the choice to murder his innocent wife and children qualifies. It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill, it doesn't matter if he was under stress, it doesn't matter if he was unhappy or even despairing of his living situation - choosing to take the life of another person in this manner is an unforgivable act from which no "mitigating circumstance" can take.

"Evil" in this context means "no, it's not because his life was hard, it's because he was a selfish scumbag who didn't give a f*ck about the people he was hurting and he deserves absolutely nothing but unequivocal, unconditional hatred for what he did".

19-12-2017 09:32PM

Mental illness is just awful. Not excusing him, but he wasn’t in his right mind. May they all Rest In Peace. Thoughts and prayers with both families.

jobbridge4life · 19-12-2017 09:33PM

Nekarsulm wrote: »

I wasn't at the inquest, so I cannot say.
But I did have occasion to attend a full day of inquests in Cavan courthouse several years ago.
They are a strange and curious thing.
You get detailed reports of the weight of the deceased persons liver, brain etc, and other details are skipped over.
In almost every inquest I was present for that day (8 or 9) at least one obvious and glaring question was not asked, leading to more questions than answers.
There is also an element of leading the jury to a conclusion.
Now this Hawe inquest is in the media spotlight, so will have been thoroughly scrutinised and no doubt legal reps. were present for all concerned, but an inquest is still a fairly imprecise instrument.

They set out to determine Who, How, Where and When, but not always Why.

The selection process of an inquest jury is worth a thread in its own right.
In some cases a court official is sent out onto the street to try and persuade a member of the public to come in.
Several retired people in the town seem go be jury junkies, always sitting in.

I have no experience with coroners court juries so I can't comment on you assertions, aside from to say that it is a deeply troubling account and seems extremely negative.

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 09:36PM

hatrickpatrick wrote:

I am so, so sick of seeing mental illness being used as some kind of mitigating factor in cases like these. Depression is a very serious illness and one which has affected me both directly and indirectly, but it does not jeopardise a person's ability to tell right from wrong. I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for victims of suicide - I have known people who have both attempted it and succeeded in doing it. But the minute somebody decides to take another unwilling soul with them, they go from being a sympathetic victim of suicide to a selfish, cowardly piece of sh!t as far as I'm concerned.

In that moment, he chose to behave like an evil scumbag, mentally ill or not. There is no mitigating factor which can lessen that fact.

If you're sick of seeing mental illness used as a mitigating factors, could you show what you mean? Has anyone in this thread mitigated Hawe's murdering using mental illness?

jobbridge4life · 19-12-2017 09:46PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I am so, so sick of seeing mental illness being used as some kind of mitigating factor in cases like these. Depression is a very serious illness and one which has affected me both directly and indirectly, but it does not jeopardise a person's ability to tell right from wrong.

It literally does. That is why we have people killing themselves at incredible rates. As a sufferer of depression, I am sick of people invoking it as somekind of preternatural claim of understanding and insight.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for victims of suicide - I have known people who have both attempted it and succeeded in doing it. But the minute somebody decides to take another unwilling soul with them, they go from being a sympathetic victim of suicide to a selfish, cowardly piece of sh!t as far as I'm concerned. Whatever Alan Hawe's troubles, and I am not denying that they could easily have been horrific enough to lead him to the awful decision that his life wasn't worth living, his conscious decision to take his wife and children with him automatically and irrevocably erases any and all possibility of him being considered a remotely sympathetic character. In that moment, he chose to behave like an evil scumbag, mentally ill or not. There is no mitigating factor which can lessen that fact.

A 'sympathetic character'! Who even thinks of things in these terms?

El_Duderino 09 · 19-12-2017 09:46PM

hatrickpatrick wrote:

In this case it's merely being used to underscore the lack of sympathy people have with this guy. The word "evil" implies that a person's actions have absolutely no redeeming factors whatsoever, and the choice to murder his innocent wife and children qualifies. It doesn't matter if he was mentally ill, it doesn't matter if he was under stress, it doesn't matter if he was unhappy or even despairing of his living situation - choosing to take the life of another person in this manner is an unforgivable act from which no "mitigating circumstance" can take.

"Evil" in this context means "no, it's not because his life was hard, it's because he was a selfish scumbag who didn't give a f*ck about the people he was hurting and he deserves absolutely nothing but unequivocal, unconditional hatred for what he did".

Do you see mental illness as a mitigating factors in and of itself? Would Hawe being diagnosed with mental illness mitigate your ability to be outraged at him? Im asking because I haven't seen anyone suggest mental illness would be a mitigating factor but you seem to want to discard mental illness in Hawe for fear of it mitigating his behaviour. I think you're the only one suggesting mental illness should be a mitigating factor

BinLiner2 · 19-12-2017 09:53PM

splinter65 wrote: »

Professor Kennedy is a qualified medical professional, I’m sure a recognized expert in his field.
Why would you be sceptical?

He is an expert who was asked for his opinion based on the records

That opinion is then extrapolated as fact by the media and public

pjohnson · 19-12-2017 09:55PM

People defending Hawe as being some poor sod with a hard mental ilness is disturbing. How many people with mental health issues manage NOT to massacre their own family. Such a cop out.

Body of Alan Hawe to be exhumed

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