Refereeing in GAA

Gulfstream757 · 22-10-2017 5:34pm #1

As a club GAA referee (both hurling and football) I often feel there is a massive disparity between players and referees, for example commentators regularly explain a refereed decision incorrectly, managers and fans are often frustrated by referees not letting the game flow.

The point in making is that bridging this gap can only be good for both sides players and referees are part of the same goal we should be working together not against eachother.

So I thought it would be interesting as a referee to hear what it is that players and fans find annoying about us? Where are we not understood and the same in the reverse? The game is not about referees it's about players, so players/fans/managers, what do you think of referees?

kala85 · 23-10-2017 8:04am

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

BrianBoru00 · 23-10-2017 8:29am

A Lot of the players don't seem to know the rules properly either. The shoulder or side to side challenge as its now known- a large amount of players seem to think that so long as they use THEIR shoulder then its legal . . . .

COMMUNICATION is key. The amount of referees at club level in particular that refuse to explain a decision is ridiculous. And if a player says "ref, hes hanging out of me" then surely the ref should keep an eye on that situation and give the free if its warranted or tell him "theres two of ye at it" or "That's a fair shoulder to shoulder". . .

But what do I think of referees on the whole at a local level - poor.

Tombo2001 · 23-10-2017 8:32am

kala85 wrote: »

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

Thats a really good idea.

If nothing else, it would stop the other lads needlessly mouthing off about the ref.

Its one those things where people think they are complete experts on it, despite never having done it.

Tombo2001 · 23-10-2017 8:34am

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

But what do I think of referees on the whole at a local level - poor.

Do you say that as a ref yourself or as a player?

Clareman · 23-10-2017 8:42am

There used to be a great slot on Sports Stadium where they went through refereeing, something like that would be great but there's so much live games on now that there isn't much time available for it.

Personally, I think there is way too much of a gap between refs and teams, I think refs should visit teams in advance of games to explain what they look for or any directions they have to follow.

BrianBoru00 · 23-10-2017 9:08am

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Do you say that as a ref yourself or as a player?

Ex player, coach, mentor, supporter.

There are some good referees out there but too many take an us and them approach. There should be no issue asking a referee about certain decisions he's made during the game from a manager.
I've had occasions where I've been fouled and complained to the ref and he's just said "look I didn't see it so I can't give it" and in fairness if he not being a dick about it its a fair enough answer.

Would I referee? Not in its current format. I've long argued for there to be no linesmen and three referees with equal power to call a free. I think this respect for Rugby (and to a lesser extent soccer) referees is codswallop. The fact is those two sports are far easier to referee. GAA games involve man marking and its an awful lot quicker.

nice_guy80 · 23-10-2017 7:35pm

some referees don't know the rules

getting newer refs to do linesman for good referees can help build good practice

The Lost Sheep · 23-10-2017 8:36pm

kala85 wrote: »

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

I dont think its needed. There needs to be far better respect for officials regardless of if they make mistakes or not(which they all do like any and every player!!)
Lots of commentators and analysts not knowing rules properly wont simply be improved by an analyst who's a former ref. Thats just hiding the fact that analysts can be completely uninformed about the games/sport theyre meant to be giving "expect analysis" on.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

A Lot of the players don't seem to know the rules properly either. The shoulder or side to side challenge as its now known- a large amount of players seem to think that so long as they use THEIR shoulder then its legal . . . .

COMMUNICATION is key. The amount of referees at club level in particular that refuse to explain a decision is ridiculous. And if a player says "ref, hes hanging out of me" then surely the ref should keep an eye on that situation and give the free if its warranted or tell him "theres two of ye at it" or "That's a fair shoulder to shoulder". . .

But what do I think of referees on the whole at a local level - poor.

Communication is key and many refs are poor but what training and on going training do they receive from the GAA as an organisation. Rugby referees have weekly/fortnightly or monthly meetings where they discuss laws/law changes/scanarios that can arise. Whats in place for hurling and gaelic referees?
Communication is important but its more preventative communication that is needed to stop fouls from occuring in the first place that is needed not like what you are saying.

Clareman wrote: »

There used to be a great slot on Sports Stadium where they went through refereeing, something like that would be great but there's so much live games on now that there isn't much time available for it.

Personally, I think there is way too much of a gap between refs and teams, I think refs should visit teams in advance of games to explain what they look for or any directions they have to follow.

Refs possibly could visit teams but teams should have to look for referees to visit them not be ref led. Refs should visit each team in a warm up prior to game informing players what their expectations are in terms of what they want.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Would I referee? Not in its current format. I've long argued for there to be no linesmen and three referees with equal power to call a free. I think this respect for Rugby (and to a lesser extent soccer) referees is codswallop. The fact is those two sports are far easier to referee. GAA games involve man marking and its an awful lot quicker.

3 referees would be far worse than what exists now. With the way the game is now their is inconsistencies at times so having 3 different refs would only make things worse. Respect for rugby referees isnt at all codswallop and that GAA games involve man marking doesnt at all make it far harder to referee and that gaelic can be quicker doesnt mean its so much easier to ref than rugby. The tackle/ruck can cause so many issues in rugby with infringements potentially(and different infringements at that) coming from 3/4/5/6 players at a time.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

some referees don't know the rules

getting newer refs to do linesman for good referees can help build good practice

It can and should be happening already

LeoB · 23-10-2017 11:48pm

The biggest problem for me has always been the sidelines and some mentors and coachs who have a win at all cost attitude and would cheat on their mothers. They complain at any decision that does not go their way. They then wind up players and the referee still gets blamed. Some of the stuff going on in games and at juvenile level is not been dealt with seriously. The intimidation of referees very subtly by mentors is awful.

Most referees I have seen this year at senior level and for the most part they have been decent but a few have been very "inconsistent' to put it mildly. Some take a disliking to teams and appear to give decisions against them in 90% of tackles.

I have refereed a fair bit and the one thing I took from no player was lip. This has crept into the game and the crap some referees take is awful but it is their fault. There are rules to deal with it and players should be booked. When I did make a mistake I never tried to balance it out on the basis one side are annoyed at me so I dont need the other side at me as well. I would also admit I was no angle on the pitch as a player or mentor.

As for the training when I was refereeing there was a few get togethers during the season for referees. I am now a referee coordinator and meet with the referees and go over the basics. It is a simple game and so are the rules. The only problem I ever have is mentors shouting and screaming at referees .

BrianBoru00 · 24-10-2017 2:34pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont think its needed. There needs to be far better respect for officials regardless of if they make mistakes or not(which they all do like any and every player!!)
Lots of commentators and analysts not knowing rules properly wont simply be improved by an analyst who's a former ref. Thats just hiding the fact that analysts can be completely uninformed about the games/sport theyre meant to be giving "expect analysis" on.

Communication is key and many refs are poor but what training and on going training do they receive from the GAA as an organisation. Rugby referees have weekly/fortnightly or monthly meetings where they discuss laws/law changes/scanarios that can arise. Whats in place for hurling and gaelic referees?
Communication is important but its more preventative communication that is needed to stop fouls from occuring in the first place that is needed not like what you are saying.

At intercounty level there are ongoing meetings where recent matches are discussed - the same way for most top level sports.

There s no such ongoing training for local rugby referees OR as far as I know the AIL in Rugby. Same with local soccer referees - no regular meetings there.
If you had read the thread you would see its specifically about club level

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Refs possibly could visit teams but teams should have to look for referees to visit them not be ref led. Refs should visit each team in a warm up prior to game informing players what their expectations are in terms of what they want.

3 referees would be far worse than what exists now. With the way the game is now their is inconsistencies at times so having 3 different refs would only make things worse.

How in the name of God do you make out it would be worse? It makes it far better. 20 referees may be a problem but more referees would certainly not increase inconsistencies. There will be situations where two referees call a free at the same time in different directions but a quick consultation will sort it out - look at basketball. It also means more off the ball fouling is called which increases the skill level.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Respect for rugby referees isnt at all codswallop and that GAA games involve man marking doesnt at all make it far harder to referee and that gaelic can be quicker doesnt mean its so much easier to ref than rugby. The tackle/ruck can cause so many issues in rugby with infringements potentially(and different infringements at that) coming from 3/4/5/6 players at a time.

That's one scenario and the referee is right beside it. In GAA - taking the slower of the two main sports there can be a player with the ball and 3-4 surrounding him and within 3 seconds the ball can be 100 yards away with a similar scenario. Gaelic Football moves far faster than rugby. Placed ball in rugby is basically your penalty, your lineout and a scrum.
Penalty - Either a shot or a kick for touch with an offside rule so you've very specific place to look at for infringements. (22 drop out is the same).
Lineout. Referee knows the ball has to be thrown in a straight ish line towards him so he has all relevant players in his view.
Scrum. Again ball has to go in at a particular point and even though it can be difficult to keep an eye on both sides of the scrum its all within a relatively small area.
General play in rugby is a lot easier manage due to the offside rule. a kick forward is not going to find two or three or four guys jostling for possession.

Gaelic Football referees would love to be able to keep all relevant players within 10-15 metres of them but its just no possible (without adding more referees)

The Lost Sheep · 24-10-2017 3:10pm

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

At intercounty level there are ongoing meetings where recent matches are discussed - the same way for most top level sports.

There s no such ongoing training for local rugby referees OR as far as I know the AIL in Rugby. Same with local soccer referees - no regular meetings there.
If you had read the thread you would see its specifically about club level

I speak as a rugby ref and there most certainly is ongoing training for refs and that's for refs below the AIL. Every refs gets assessed at least 3 times pre Christmas and 3 post xmas and possibly more if theyre in the development system and are being earmarked for promotion to AIL etc and AIL refs are assessed virtually every week.
There is monthly meetings in each province and depending on the province meetings for the refs can be more than monthly.
There is very much ongoing training for referees in rugby from the meetings ive mentioned where laws/law changes are discussed as well as possible scanarios that may come up

How in the name of God do you make out it would be worse? It makes it far better. 20 referees may be a problem but more referees would certainly not increase inconsistencies. There will be situations where two referees call a ree at the same time in different directions but a quick consultation will sort it out - look at basketball. It also means more off the ball fouling is called which increases the skill level.

Basketball is played on a small court and has one referee with 2 umpires who're assistant to the main ref. Two referees isn't needed. Give the linesmen and umpires more powers but no need for a second referee.
Referees have different interpretations to rules and in fast fluid games this can certainly be worse.

In GAA - taking the slower of the two main sports there can be a player with the ball and 3-4 surrounding him and within 3 seconds the ball can be 100 yards away with a similar scenario. Gaelic Football moves far faster than rugby. Placed ball in rugby is basically your penalty, your lineout and a scrum. Penalty - Either a shot or a kick for touch with an offside rule so you've very specific place to look at for infringements. (22 drop out is the same). Lineout. Referee knows the ball has to be thrown in a straight ish line towards him so he has all relevant players in his view.
Scrum. Again ball has to go in at a particular point and even though it can be difficult to keep an eye on both sides of the scrum its all within a relatively small area. General play in rugby is a lot easier manage due to the offside rule. a kick forward is not going to find two or three or four guys jostling for possession.

That is nonsense and you are showing a fundamental lack of knowledge of rugby. You are forgetting about the complexities of rugby and issues with that. General play in rugby is much harder in face to manage because of the offside law as you have to check players from team in possession/team not in possession are/were onside or offside and able to play the ball at the next available opportunity

Mokuba · 24-10-2017 3:18pm

Black card in particular is a complete farce.

Referees just make up their own rules for what does or does not constitute a black card offense on any given day.

Some really, really shocking performances at championship level this year in football. Mayo v Cork/Tipp v Armagh were two absolutely appalling refereeing performances.

24-10-2017 3:25pm

Do you know what would make the job far easier, in a lot of instances?.

Take away the two linesmen and make them additional referees.

Completely pointless having two guys making 2/3 decisions a game when any debatable ones are highly disputed. The majority are clear as day and there's no offsides/forward passes to watch to justify them standing out there.

Look at hurling, the ball can go the length in a matter of seconds.. how can a ref clearly adjudicate from the opposite end of the pitch.

It won't help some club games but county and higher club games would be improved immensely.

Work it similarly to AFL where they edge to the side of play to adjudicate boundary decisions.

BrianBoru00 · 24-10-2017 3:45pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I speak as a rugby ref and there most certainly is ongoing training for refs and that's for refs below the AIL. Every refs gets assessed at least 3 times pre Christmas and 3 post xmas and possibly more if theyre in the development system and are being earmarked for promotion to AIL etc and AIL refs are assessed virtually every week.
There is monthly meetings in each province and depending on the province meetings for the refs can be more than monthly.
There is very much ongoing training for referees in rugby from the meetings ive mentioned where laws/law changes are discussed as well as possible scanarios that may come up

Basketball is played on a small court and has one referee with 2 umpires who're assistant to the main ref. Two referees isn't needed. Give the linesmen and umpires more powers but no need for a second referee.
Referees have different interpretations to rules and in fast fluid games this can certainly be worse.

That is nonsense and you are showing a fundamental lack of knowledge of rugby. You are forgetting about the complexities of rugby and issues with that. General play in rugby is much harder in face to manage because of the offside law as you have to check players from team in possession/team not in possession are/were onside or offside and able to play the ball at the next available opportunity

How am I showing fundamental lack of rugby knowledge? The offside rule isn't that hard to referee.

Your just taking offence to the claim that rugby is easier to referee. You haven't added anything to the relevant discussion.

You've mentioned assessment in this post - referees at local level are assessed regularly also by members of the refereeing committee. Assessment is different to training

The Lost Sheep · 24-10-2017 4:50pm

Mokuba wrote: »

Black card in particular is a complete farce.

Referees just make up their own rules for what does or does not constitute a black card offense on any given day.

Some really, really shocking performances at championship level this year in football. Mayo v Cork/Tipp v Armagh were two absolutely appalling refereeing performances.

Black card isn't a farce and while perhaps what is a black card needs to be looked at and there is inconsistency between what is and isn't a black card offence but that will differ between referees and on each day and the circumstances leading to a black card just like any card in any sport

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

How am I showing fundamental lack of rugby knowledge? The offside rule isn't that hard to referee.

The offside law most certainly is an issue in rugby. There is offside in open play. offside at ruck/maul/scrum etc.

Your just taking offence to the claim that rugby is easier to referee. You haven't added anything to the relevant discussion.

You've mentioned assessment in this post - referees at local level are assessed regularly also by members of the refereeing committee. Assessment is different to training

Assessment at a lower level in rugby is actually "coaching" than assessment officially. Refs at lower levels are coached. They will meet an assessor prior to the game. The assessor at half time will help the referee with advice on issues that have arisen in the game and the ref needs to Improve on in second half.

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Do you know what would make the job far easier, in a lot of instances?.

Take away the two linesmen and make them additional referees.

Completely pointless having two guys making 2/3 decisions a game when any debatable ones are highly disputed. The majority are clear as day and there's no offsides/forward passes to watch to justify them standing out there.

Look at hurling, the ball can go the length in a matter of seconds.. how can a ref clearly adjudicate from the opposite end of the pitch.

It won't help some club games but county and higher club games would be improved immensely.

Work it similarly to AFL where they edge to the side of play to adjudicate boundary decisions.

Making the linesmen additional referees is fine but how much extra powers are they to receive???

rebel girl 15 · 26-10-2017 7:59pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

some referees don't know the rules

getting newer refs to do linesman for good referees can help build good practice

Whole rule book needs to be examined properly - there are two many grey areas that are open to interpretation. That's the cause of the inconsistency - if those grey areas are knocked out, then it makes it easier to be consistent.

This "get respect, give respect" lark is a pure joke - I agree with a previous poster about the intimidation of referees by mentors, this needs to be cut out. Blame the referee if things go wrong and not themselves.

Rugby is "easier" to referee as the rules are better and have much more clarity - however in reality it isn't as the technicalities of it are as hard as GAA if not harder. Clarify the rule book, provide proper training and follow up for all referees, especially club ones. You have all these development squads in every county at every age group, but what is done for the referees? Very little in many places - some fellas do a referees course and thats it, never anything else, and they get games. I've seen it in ladies football, where fellas did one course, or referee mens games (different rules!), go out and get games and ruin them by letting them be way too physical and outside the rules.

The Lost Sheep · 26-10-2017 8:04pm

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Whole rule book needs to be examined properly - there are two many grey areas that are open to interpretation. That's the cause of the inconsistency - if those grey areas are knocked out, then it makes it easier to be consistent.

This "get respect, give respect" lark is a pure joke - I agree with a previous poster about the intimidation of referees by mentors, this needs to be cut out. Blame the referee if things go wrong and not themselves.

Rugby is "easier" to referee as the rules are better and have much more clarity - however in reality it isn't as the technicalities of it are as hard as GAA if not harder. Clarify the rule book, provide proper training and follow up for all referees, especially club ones. You have all these development squads in every county at every age group, but what is done for the referees? Very little in many places - some fellas do a referees course and thats it, never anything else, and they get games. I've seen it in ladies football, where fellas did one course, or referee mens games (different rules!), go out and get games and ruin them by letting them be way too physical and outside the rules.

I dont see any issue with rules of a sport being open to interpretation but perhaps for hurling and gaelic considering some issues that occur in both and to help referees the rules should change to stop them being interpretated in so many ways.
What would you see as proper training and follow up for training for match officials?

rebel girl 15 · 28-10-2017 2:40pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What would you see as proper training and follow up for training for match officials?

Yearly refresher courses being run, especially for referees refereeing minor and upwards. Some sort of fitness standard being introduced - put two weekends of training on at the start of the year with a theory and fitness part. At the end of the day, these guys are being paid, and should have some standard of performance measured. Then observed once or twice during a year

BrianBoru00 · 28-10-2017 3:46pm

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Yearly refresher courses being run, especially for referees refereeing minor and upwards. Some sort of fitness standard being introduced - put two weekends of training on at the start of the year with a theory and fitness part. At the end of the day, these guys are being paid, and should have some standard of performance measured. Then observed once or twice during a year

Already in place.

They are NOT paid - they get expenses - for inter county refs this is often swalled up bringing their umpires for dinner!

rebel girl 15 · 28-10-2017 3:53pm

Not talking about inter county - all that is in place anyway for inter county

BrianBoru00 · 28-10-2017 4:06pm

Its in place locally also

The Lost Sheep · 28-10-2017 4:50pm

rebel girl 15 wrote:

Yearly refresher courses being run, especially for referees refereeing minor and upwards. Some sort of fitness standard being introduced - put two weekends of training on at the start of the year with a theory and fitness part. At the end of the day, these guys are being paid, and should have some standard of performance measured. Then observed once or twice during a year

there should be a course for refs at start of each year but also should be monthly meetings where refs can discuss as a group issues that may arise in games. And this should be for all refs not just hose at the top. And are the refs paid that much anyway? The refs at the top level should be assessed for more than once or twice a year.
In rugby I'm a very middle tier ref and This season so far I've been assessed three times and been videoed another two occasions.

rebel girl 15 · 29-10-2017 4:03pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

there should be a course for refs at start of each year but also should be monthly meetings where refs can discuss as a group issues that may arise in games. And this should be for all refs not just hose at the top. And are the refs paid that much anyway? The refs at the top level should be assessed for more than once or twice a year.
In rugby I'm a very middle tier ref and This season so far I've been assessed three times and been videoed another two occasions.

Everything I've suggested is for inter cub referees - all inter county referees have a high standard to hit anyway. Inter club, heard that it is between €40 or €50 a game

keeponhurling · 30-10-2017 11:02am

kala85 wrote: »

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

+100

The Lost Sheep · 18-12-2017 10:24pm

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Everything I've suggested is for inter cub referees - all inter county referees have a high standard to hit anyway. Inter club, heard that it is between €40 or €50 a game

Thats mad. Would love that kind of pay per game in rugby.
That would be great if club refs got that level of assistance. Would be win win for everyone but who would you have doing it?
I wouldnt focus so much on fitness tests for most referees. If they are at a higher level like top underage, adult senior/intermediate and intercounty yes but lower levels fitness isnt needed as focus with other things that should be really focused on.
I still think meetings where all refs in a county/division within a county can meet and discuss rules/look at video clips on issues that they need to work on etc

nice_guy80 · 18-12-2017 11:57pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Thats mad. Would love that kind of pay per game in rugby.
That would be great if club refs got that level of assistance. Would be win win for everyone but who would you have doing it?
I wouldnt focus so much on fitness tests for most referees. If they are at a higher level like top underage, adult senior/intermediate and intercounty yes but lower levels fitness isnt needed as focus with other things that should be really focused on.
I still think meetings where all refs in a county/division within a county can meet and discuss rules/look at video clips on issues that they need to work on etc

what do rugby refs get for adult games?

The Lost Sheep · 19-12-2017 12:17am

nice_guy80 wrote: »

what do rugby refs get for adult games?

For club games? Nothing bar travel expenses at 30c/km or so.

Borders no.2 · 19-12-2017 1:29am

At club level I think the biggest issue to be addressed is half the parish being out on the sideline. Any tight calls or heavy hits are a recipe for disaster with so many subs and countless mentors in close proximity.

Managers thinking its their right to be out on the pitch contesting every call is very frustrating to watch. 20 different people going in with water during every break in play doesn't help the flow of games.

I think the gaa need to up their game with regards to umpires. I appreciate how difficult it is to get people to do that job and without being disrespectful to lads doing the job where hawkeye isn't available there's a lot of umpires chancing their arm. It's a tough job which needs good eye sight and mobility to move into the right position. The ref has so many tasks to handle and then we have 4 officials who are offering him no real assistance in general play.

Bonniedog · 19-12-2017 3:07am

It is thankless job. And as you say the interference with refs is unacceptable. As for umpires.... done it myself and often been confused about scores, wides, and so on. However, it is one thing people doing it as helping out with club, and another where there is level of total incompetence at county level. Was at match in Portlaoise when we beat the Cats and one of the umpires was asking players and people behind the goal what they thought! As it happened his two bad calls cancelled one another out, but there needs to be proper training for the job. Everyone else on pitch and the line has.

The Lost Sheep · 19-12-2017 3:18am

Borders no.2 wrote: »

At club level I think the biggest issue to be addressed is half the parish being out on the sideline. Any tight calls or heavy hits are a recipe for disaster with so many subs and countless mentors in close proximity.

Managers thinking its their right to be out on the pitch contesting every call is very frustrating to watch. 20 different people going in with water during every break in play doesn't help the flow of games.

I think the gaa need to up their game with regards to umpires. I appreciate how difficult it is to get people to do that job and without being disrespectful to lads doing the job where hawkeye isn't available there's a lot of umpires chancing their arm. It's a tough job which needs good eye sight and mobility to move into the right position. The ref has so many tasks to handle and then we have 4 officials who are offering him no real assistance in general play.

Oh certainly but how would you try stop it?
You couldnt go all out and ban people from sideline it would have to be gradual.
Like i can remember when i used be kind of still involved in my parish gaa club and id be going in to the dugout area walking in with team and subs and sit there beside the subs and coaches along with 15/20 other kids etc.
Limiting numbers and keeping them beyond fence(where one exists) needs to be enforced more strictly by officials
For umpires they should like referees have training/meetings on ways to improve

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is thankless job. And as you say the interference with refs is unacceptable. As for umpires.... done it myself and often been confused about scores, wides, and so on. However, it is one thing people doing it as helping out with club, and another where there is level of total incompetence at county level. Was at match in Portlaoise when we beat the Cats and one of the umpires was asking players and people behind the goal what they thought! As it happened his two bad calls cancelled one another out, but there needs to be proper training for the job. Everyone else on pitch and the line has.

What would you see as proper training for the job??

nice_guy80 · 19-12-2017 8:47am

so fair play to the GAA for looking after referees so well

gaelic games are much harder to ref.
bigger pitch
ball moves faster
both teams spread out over the pitch
more scores to record
more one on one contests for a pass made

oh and I've refereed adult and underage games
lack of knowledge of the rules and conning of the ref are biggest issues

The Lost Sheep · 19-12-2017 12:31pm

nice_guy80 wrote: »

so fair play to the GAA for looking after referees so well

gaelic games are much harder to ref.
bigger pitch
ball moves faster
both teams spread out over the pitch
more scores to record
more one on one contests for a pass made

oh and I've refereed adult and underage games
lack of knowledge of the rules and conning of the ref are biggest issues

I wouldnt say gaelic games are harder to ref at all. Bigger pitch and ball moves faster but the intricities of the tackle, ruck etc in rugby are not there in hurling, gaelic which makes rugby harder to ref IMO.
More scores to record doesnt make a game harder to ref.

homer1982 · 19-12-2017 1:56pm

I played hurling in Kilkenny from a young age until 30, I played club and some underage county I then played in Dublin(senior) for a year and now Cork(senior) for the last number of years. There was very little difference in refereeing in Dublin and Kilkenny, but a massive difference with the type of refereeing in Cork. It seems very easy to get a free in Cork or a yellow card for minimal contact.

I always hear people in Cork complain that the referees locally are to blame for the levels of toughness in the players when the go on to play county but I have to disagree. Firstly I have found that the the players here are as tough as any other part of the country and secondly one of the Cork county players in my club here has always insisted that he spends the majority of he's time playing county hurling with county standard referees just like every other county and he feels that he is well used the the type of refereeing at this stage. He feels that this year was the first time that they focused on their levels of aggression when playing.

Has anyone else noticed this? Again its just my personal opinion on differences I have noticed across various counties, I'm not saying I'm correct just my observation.

Bonniedog · 20-12-2017 1:45am

One of arguments that used to be heard about Dublin was that reffing was far too strict, and that when senior club players played county they were not able for more aggressive opponents. On other hand, Dublin SHC was dog rough for many years and reffing was probably reaction to that. So interesting to hear your opinion. Hurling referees should really be concentrating on technical rules, and penalising aggressive play meant to injure another player. Other than that, I would tend to share Cody's view that the less the better!

Realt Dearg Sec · 20-12-2017 3:29am

I've always found the refs at Junior in Dublin to be very whistle happy, and often took it as a personal affront if they were asked to explain any decision whatsoever.

Played a match one time where the ref have ten yards against us literally every time someone asked what a decision was for, and eventually just started giving ten yards when nobody said anything. Not even joking, we lost by a point in a match where we got two frees all day and the opponents didn't score once from play. That kind of farcical situation isn't at all unusual.

Some fantastic refs doing the rounds as well though, just great judgment, communicativeness. The best Junior ref in the county is a Kilkenny man though. Shiner Brennan, even throws in a running commentary on the match. I once tackled and dispossessed someone them gave the ball away with a bad handpass, shiner was right beside it all: "oh beautiful tackle...jaysus he makes a hames of the easy part, eejit!" Talk about adding insult to injury!

DH2K9 · 22-07-2020 1:05pm

Hi lads,

I had a good chat with David Coldrick this week on the Tackling Sport Podcast.

He discussed his own reffing career, recent rule changes, dealing with abuse and what more can be done to encourage young referees.

Full show: podfollow.com/tackling-sport

I'm wondering what more can be done to get more people refereeing and what can us players, supporters do more to facilitate this. I fear we're just going down the same road of abuse being acceptable and a part of the game. I both play and referee and it drives me mad some of the things players/management appeal for and give out to you over. Would love to know your thoughts.

Realt Dearg Sec · 22-07-2020 3:05pm

DH2K9 wrote: »

Hi lads,

I had a good chat with David Coldrick this week on the Tackling Sport Podcast.

He discussed his own reffing career, recent rule changes, dealing with abuse and what more can be done to encourage young referees.

Full show: podfollow.com/tackling-sport

I'm wondering what more can be done to get more people refereeing and what can us players, supporters do more to facilitate this. I fear we're just going down the same road of abuse being acceptable and a part of the game. I both play and referee and it drives me mad some of the things players/management appeal for and give out to you over. Would love to know your thoughts.

A good start would be making explaining decisions compulsory. The amount of times I or a teammate have had a few moved up ten yards because we simply asked what a free was for is crazy. And I honestly mean simply asked, no anger or abuse or anything. To be fair this is a habit of one ref in particular, but the general aversion to explaining decisions is common among refs, who are often first to complain then that players and supporters don't have a clue about the rules or about reffing. So, teach us! The best refs aren't the ones who get everything right, they're the ones who calmly explain their decisions to you. Give respect, get respect is, by definition, a two way game.

Clareman · 22-07-2020 3:37pm

In my opinion the best refs are the ones that you don't notice, the worst refs are the ones who try to undo a mistake by balancing it out. If VAR in the premiership has thought us anything its that even computers can make a mistake.

In my opinion, refs should spend more time with the different teams and teams should have access to a ref before matches, in rugby for example refs will meet the teams before internationals. Teams should also look to see what a ref's "style" is, for example some refs will pull for a certain type of handpass so they should avoid doing that if they know the ref pulls up on it more than others.

The Lost Sheep · 22-07-2020 4:30pm

Realt Dearg Sec wrote: »

A good start would be making explaining decisions compulsory. The amount of times I or a teammate have had a few moved up ten yards because we simply asked what a free was for is crazy. And I honestly mean simply asked, no anger or abuse or anything. To be fair this is a habit of one ref in particular, but the general aversion to explaining decisions is common among refs, who are often first to complain then that players and supporters don't have a clue about the rules or about reffing. So, teach us! The best refs aren't the ones who get everything right, they're the ones who calmly explain their decisions to you. Give respect, get respect is, by definition, a two way game.

I dont think explaining decisions should be made compulsory. A lot of the time you shouldnt have to explain exactly what a free is being given for.
Now refs moving a free up for players simply asking what a free was for is just terrible game management and that's where a ref assessor should come in and pull the ref up on it.

Clareman wrote: »

In my opinion the best refs are the ones that you don't notice, the worst refs are the ones who try to undo a mistake by balancing it out. If VAR in the premiership has thought us anything its that even computers can make a mistake.

In my opinion, refs should spend more time with the different teams and teams should have access to a ref before matches, in rugby for example refs will meet the teams before internationals. Teams should also look to see what a ref's "style" is, for example some refs will pull for a certain type of handpass so they should avoid doing that if they know the ref pulls up on it more than others.

I dont think refs spending time before the game really is needed in rugby yes it's about setting your stall and explaining about how you manage certain issues in the game but this iant needed as much in hurling/football.

greenspurs · 23-07-2020 4:51pm

the lack of respect for refs in gaelic games is endemic, and seems to be accepted as part and parcel of the passion.

I refereed at a high level in another code, and I always considered gaa as more uncontrolled , and there was less clarity for tackles, fouls etc.
but t think gaa , especially hurling and camogie, need 2 refs, one in each half, because the game is so fast, and with 1 puck of the ball the ball is 100 yards away, and theres no way a ref can keep up with that , and make a correct call.

As a ref you have to accept that every time you blow the whistle you will upset 50% of all that are there, players and supporters.
Some refs know that, some refs try balance it out, and some will revel in driving 1 set mad with his decisions.
It happens.

But most players are a bit thick really. The easiest way to get 50/50 calls in your favour throughout a game, and games after, is to stay on his good side "well done ref", not "gway ta fcuk ref will yaa" …. Flattery counts kids !

The Lost Sheep · 23-07-2020 10:03pm

greenspurs wrote: »

the lack of respect for refs in gaelic games is endemic, and seems to be accepted as part and parcel of the passion.

I refereed at a high level in another code, and I always considered gaa as more uncontrolled , and there was less clarity for tackles, fouls etc.
but t think gaa , especially hurling and camogie, need 2 refs, one in each half, because the game is so fast, and with 1 puck of the ball the ball is 100 yards away, and theres no way a ref can keep up with that , and make a correct call.

As a ref you have to accept that every time you blow the whistle you will upset 50% of all that are there, players and supporters.
Some refs know that, some refs try balance it out, and some will revel in driving 1 set mad with his decisions.
It happens.

But most players are a bit thick really. The easiest way to get 50/50 calls in your favour throughout a game, and games after, is to stay on his good side "well done ref", not "gway ta fcuk ref will yaa" …. Flattery counts kids !

I dont think 2 refs are needed but you can address things more by giving linesmen and umpires more powers.

greenspurs · 24-07-2020 9:00am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont think 2 refs are needed but you can address things more by giving linesmen and umpires more powers.

I would disagree.
More powers ? Like what ? They have the 'power' to notify the ref of any foul play that goes on behind his back.
He then takes action.

Would you recommend that Umpires are given cards and a whistle ?

The Lost Sheep · 24-07-2020 10:32am

greenspurs wrote: »

I would disagree.
More powers ? Like what ? They have the 'power' to notify the ref of any foul play that goes on behind his back.
He then takes action.

Would you recommend that Umpires are given cards and a whistle ?

dont be ridiculous.
maybe power was incorrect word to use but how often do we see umpires notify refs of clear foul play now then?
If you give the other 6 officials more training and use them more in decision process then you dont need to add a second ref in the actual game
There is already 7 officials between umpires, linesmen and the ref. Adding an 8th person is a waste of time. Use all the people already there on the pitch far better

greenspurs · 24-07-2020 10:47am

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

dont be ridiculous.
maybe power was incorrect word to use but how often do we see umpires notify refs of clear foul play now then?
If you give the other 6 officials more training and use them more in decision process then you dont need to add a second ref in the actual game
There is already 7 officials between umpires, linesmen and the ref. Adding an 8th person is a waste of time. Use all the people already there on the pitch far better

Ridiculous ?? Where was I ridiculous ?
8 officials - when theres a 4th Official.

How could you get 3/4 people to agree on the same incident?

Training - What training should Umpires receive to assist the ref?
Linesmen - What (additional) training should they receive?
4th Official - what (additional) training would you suggest they need.

My opinion would be -
2 Refs , 1 in each half. They deal will all fouls and scoring in their half. If they see an off the ball incident in the 'other' refs half, Inform him.
Linesmen - flag ball out of play - If there is an incident that neither ref sees, they will go ask his opinion, if he saw it.
Umpires - Flag Scores, award wides or 65s. If an incident happens that happens off the ball/behind the refs back , inform the ref.

The Lost Sheep · 24-07-2020 1:13pm

greenspurs wrote: »

Ridiculous ?? Where was I ridiculous ?
8 officials - when theres a 4th Official.

How could you get 3/4 people to agree on the same incident?

Training - What training should Umpires receive to assist the ref?
Linesmen - What (additional) training should they receive?
4th Official - what (additional) training would you suggest they need.

My opinion would be -
2 Refs , 1 in each half. They deal will all fouls and scoring in their half. If they see an off the ball incident in the 'other' refs half, Inform him.
Linesmen - flag ball out of play - If there is an incident that neither ref sees, they will go ask his opinion, if he saw it.
Umpires - Flag Scores, award wides or 65s. If an incident happens that happens off the ball/behind the refs back , inform the ref.

its very easy to get a consensus from several people on one incident in games.
An incident occurs. If ref sees the incident he will ask the linesman and/or umpires for their view but will start off by saying what they saw. Otherwise the ref will say they havent seen anything and ask the umprie/linesman what they saw
The training umpires etc receive is regular meetings with ref development officers/top referees in their area like any actual referee should be getting.

greenspurs · 24-07-2020 2:14pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

its very easy to get a consensus from several people on one incident in games.
An incident occurs. If ref sees the incident he will ask the linesman and/or umpires for their view but will start off by saying what they saw. Otherwise the ref will say they havent seen anything and ask the umprie/linesman what they saw
The training umpires etc receive is regular meetings with ref development officers/top referees in their area like any actual referee should be getting.

Really ? Maybe you mean if the ref DOESNT see the incident? but even so ..

Is that on every decision ?
Will time be stopped while the officials have their huddle?

Not going to happen , ever, and doesn't now.

The Lost Sheep · 24-07-2020 2:28pm

greenspurs wrote: »

Really ? Maybe you mean if the ref DOESNT see the incident? but even so ..

Is that on every decision ?
Will time be stopped while the officials have their huddle?

Not going to happen , ever, and doesn't now.

not every decision but linesmen need to be involved far more then they are
2 refs doesnt help the situation when you have major issues with the officials already in place. Adding another without changing how the existing officials manage a game

greenspurs · 24-07-2020 3:17pm

greenspurs wrote: »

My opinion would be -
2 Refs , 1 in each half. They deal will all fouls and scoring in their half. If they see an off the ball incident in the 'other' refs half, Inform him.
Linesmen - flag ball out of play - If there is an incident that neither ref sees, they will go ask his opinion, if he saw it.
Umpires - Flag Scores, award wides or 65s. If an incident happens that happens off the ball/behind the refs back , inform the ref.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

not every decision but linesmen need to be involved far more then they are
2 refs doesnt help the situation when you have major issues with the officials already in place. Adding another without changing how the existing officials manage a game

As I said above, re linesmens duties.

The 2 refs on the pitch would take care of matters on the pitch.

Its quite simple.
It worked well during the Aussie/Compromised/International rules series against the Aussies, no reason to think it wouldn't help with the officiating in GF and especially hurling.

The Lost Sheep · 24-07-2020 3:23pm

greenspurs wrote: »

As I said above, re linesmens duties.

The 2 refs on the pitch would take care of matters on the pitch.

Its quite simple.
It worked well during the Aussie/Compromised/International rules series against the Aussies, no reason to think it wouldn't help with the officiating in GF and especially hurling.

why add an extra ref when you can simply get your existing officials to do more.
If you have a second ref is that at all levels?
a linesman should be able to talk to ref throughout a game and give trends etc on things to watch out for like off the ball incidents etc. Ref can look for those incidents and sanction if needed
When there is so many issues with one refs interpretation of many things in the game adding a second ref is pointless. Fix what your existing officials are doing without adding another official on top of that

greenspurs · 24-07-2020 3:45pm

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

why add an extra ref when you can simply get your existing officials to do more.
If you have a second ref is that at all levels?
a linesman should be able to talk to ref throughout a game and give trends etc on things to watch out for like off the ball incidents etc. Ref can look for those incidents and sanction if needed
When there is so many issues with one refs interpretation of many things in the game adding a second ref is pointless. Fix what your existing officials are doing without adding another official on top of that

Senior and Intercounty - numbers are small so probably hard to work.

Linesmen - yes, shur that's obvious, as I have stated twice already.

Interpetation - 2 refs is too many? You suggested letting them all have a meeting to decide on fouls/sanctions !?!!

Each ref looks after his own half of the field.... Simple.
The hardest things to see are the incidents that happen 80 yards from a ref after a long clearance, if theres one ref in each half, he would never be that far away

Refereeing in GAA

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