Refereeing in GAA

Gulfstream757

As a club GAA referee (both hurling and football) I often feel there is a massive disparity between players and referees, for example commentators regularly explain a refereed decision incorrectly, managers and fans are often frustrated by referees not letting the game flow.

The point in making is that bridging this gap can only be good for both sides players and referees are part of the same goal we should be working together not against eachother.

So I thought it would be interesting as a referee to hear what it is that players and fans find annoying about us? Where are we not understood and the same in the reverse? The game is not about referees it's about players, so players/fans/managers, what do you think of referees?

kala85

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

BrianBoru00

A Lot of the players don't seem to know the rules properly either. The shoulder or side to side challenge as its now known- a large amount of players seem to think that so long as they use THEIR shoulder then its legal . . . .

COMMUNICATION is key. The amount of referees at club level in particular that refuse to explain a decision is ridiculous. And if a player says "ref, hes hanging out of me" then surely the ref should keep an eye on that situation and give the free if its warranted or tell him "theres two of ye at it" or "That's a fair shoulder to shoulder". . .

But what do I think of referees on the whole at a local level - poor.

Tombo2001

kala85 wrote: »

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

Thats a really good idea.

If nothing else, it would stop the other lads needlessly mouthing off about the ref.

Its one those things where people think they are complete experts on it, despite never having done it.

Tombo2001

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

But what do I think of referees on the whole at a local level - poor.

Do you say that as a ref yourself or as a player?

Clareman

There used to be a great slot on Sports Stadium where they went through refereeing, something like that would be great but there's so much live games on now that there isn't much time available for it.

Personally, I think there is way too much of a gap between refs and teams, I think refs should visit teams in advance of games to explain what they look for or any directions they have to follow.

BrianBoru00

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Do you say that as a ref yourself or as a player?

Ex player, coach, mentor, supporter.

There are some good referees out there but too many take an us and them approach. There should be no issue asking a referee about certain decisions he's made during the game from a manager.
I've had occasions where I've been fouled and complained to the ref and he's just said "look I didn't see it so I can't give it" and in fairness if he not being a dick about it its a fair enough answer.



Would I referee? Not in its current format. I've long argued for there to be no linesmen and three referees with equal power to call a free. I think this respect for Rugby (and to a lesser extent soccer) referees is codswallop. The fact is those two sports are far easier to referee. GAA games involve man marking and its an awful lot quicker.

nice_guy80

some referees don't know the rules

getting newer refs to do linesman for good referees can help build good practice

The Lost Sheep

kala85 wrote: »

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

I dont think its needed. There needs to be far better respect for officials regardless of if they make mistakes or not(which they all do like any and every player!!)
Lots of commentators and analysts not knowing rules properly wont simply be improved by an analyst who's a former ref. Thats just hiding the fact that analysts can be completely uninformed about the games/sport theyre meant to be giving "expect analysis" on.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

A Lot of the players don't seem to know the rules properly either. The shoulder or side to side challenge as its now known- a large amount of players seem to think that so long as they use THEIR shoulder then its legal . . . .

COMMUNICATION is key. The amount of referees at club level in particular that refuse to explain a decision is ridiculous. And if a player says "ref, hes hanging out of me" then surely the ref should keep an eye on that situation and give the free if its warranted or tell him "theres two of ye at it" or "That's a fair shoulder to shoulder". . .

But what do I think of referees on the whole at a local level - poor.

Communication is key and many refs are poor but what training and on going training do they receive from the GAA as an organisation. Rugby referees have weekly/fortnightly or monthly meetings where they discuss laws/law changes/scanarios that can arise. Whats in place for hurling and gaelic referees?
Communication is important but its more preventative communication that is needed to stop fouls from occuring in the first place that is needed not like what you are saying.

Clareman wrote: »

There used to be a great slot on Sports Stadium where they went through refereeing, something like that would be great but there's so much live games on now that there isn't much time available for it.

Personally, I think there is way too much of a gap between refs and teams, I think refs should visit teams in advance of games to explain what they look for or any directions they have to follow.

Refs possibly could visit teams but teams should have to look for referees to visit them not be ref led. Refs should visit each team in a warm up prior to game informing players what their expectations are in terms of what they want.

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

Would I referee? Not in its current format. I've long argued for there to be no linesmen and three referees with equal power to call a free. I think this respect for Rugby (and to a lesser extent soccer) referees is codswallop. The fact is those two sports are far easier to referee. GAA games involve man marking and its an awful lot quicker.

3 referees would be far worse than what exists now. With the way the game is now their is inconsistencies at times so having 3 different refs would only make things worse. Respect for rugby referees isnt at all codswallop and that GAA games involve man marking doesnt at all make it far harder to referee and that gaelic can be quicker doesnt mean its so much easier to ref than rugby. The tackle/ruck can cause so many issues in rugby with infringements potentially(and different infringements at that) coming from 3/4/5/6 players at a time.

nice_guy80 wrote: »

some referees don't know the rules

getting newer refs to do linesman for good referees can help build good practice

It can and should be happening already

LeoB

The biggest problem for me has always been the sidelines and some mentors and coachs who have a win at all cost attitude and would cheat on their mothers. They complain at any decision that does not go their way. They then wind up players and the referee still gets blamed. Some of the stuff going on in games and at juvenile level is not been dealt with seriously. The intimidation of referees very subtly by mentors is awful.

Most referees I have seen this year at senior level and for the most part they have been decent but a few have been very "inconsistent' to put it mildly. Some take a disliking to teams and appear to give decisions against them in 90% of tackles.

I have refereed a fair bit and the one thing I took from no player was lip. This has crept into the game and the crap some referees take is awful but it is their fault. There are rules to deal with it and players should be booked. When I did make a mistake I never tried to balance it out on the basis one side are annoyed at me so I dont need the other side at me as well. I would also admit I was no angle on the pitch as a player or mentor.

As for the training when I was refereeing there was a few get togethers during the season for referees. I am now a referee coordinator and meet with the referees and go over the basics. It is a simple game and so are the rules. The only problem I ever have is mentors shouting and screaming at referees .

BrianBoru00

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I dont think its needed. There needs to be far better respect for officials regardless of if they make mistakes or not(which they all do like any and every player!!)
Lots of commentators and analysts not knowing rules properly wont simply be improved by an analyst who's a former ref. Thats just hiding the fact that analysts can be completely uninformed about the games/sport theyre meant to be giving "expect analysis" on.

Communication is key and many refs are poor but what training and on going training do they receive from the GAA as an organisation. Rugby referees have weekly/fortnightly or monthly meetings where they discuss laws/law changes/scanarios that can arise. Whats in place for hurling and gaelic referees?
Communication is important but its more preventative communication that is needed to stop fouls from occuring in the first place that is needed not like what you are saying.

At intercounty level there are ongoing meetings where recent matches are discussed - the same way for most top level sports.

There s no such ongoing training for local rugby referees OR as far as I know the AIL in Rugby. Same with local soccer referees - no regular meetings there.
If you had read the thread you would see its specifically about club level

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Refs possibly could visit teams but teams should have to look for referees to visit them not be ref led. Refs should visit each team in a warm up prior to game informing players what their expectations are in terms of what they want.

3 referees would be far worse than what exists now. With the way the game is now their is inconsistencies at times so having 3 different refs would only make things worse.

How in the name of God do you make out it would be worse? It makes it far better. 20 referees may be a problem but more referees would certainly not increase inconsistencies. There will be situations where two referees call a free at the same time in different directions but a quick consultation will sort it out - look at basketball. It also means more off the ball fouling is called which increases the skill level.

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Respect for rugby referees isnt at all codswallop and that GAA games involve man marking doesnt at all make it far harder to referee and that gaelic can be quicker doesnt mean its so much easier to ref than rugby. The tackle/ruck can cause so many issues in rugby with infringements potentially(and different infringements at that) coming from 3/4/5/6 players at a time.

That's one scenario and the referee is right beside it. In GAA - taking the slower of the two main sports there can be a player with the ball and 3-4 surrounding him and within 3 seconds the ball can be 100 yards away with a similar scenario. Gaelic Football moves far faster than rugby. Placed ball in rugby is basically your penalty, your lineout and a scrum.
Penalty - Either a shot or a kick for touch with an offside rule so you've very specific place to look at for infringements. (22 drop out is the same).
Lineout. Referee knows the ball has to be thrown in a straight ish line towards him so he has all relevant players in his view.
Scrum. Again ball has to go in at a particular point and even though it can be difficult to keep an eye on both sides of the scrum its all within a relatively small area.
General play in rugby is a lot easier manage due to the offside rule. a kick forward is not going to find two or three or four guys jostling for possession.

Gaelic Football referees would love to be able to keep all relevant players within 10-15 metres of them but its just no possible (without adding more referees)

The Lost Sheep

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

At intercounty level there are ongoing meetings where recent matches are discussed - the same way for most top level sports.

There s no such ongoing training for local rugby referees OR as far as I know the AIL in Rugby. Same with local soccer referees - no regular meetings there.
If you had read the thread you would see its specifically about club level

I speak as a rugby ref and there most certainly is ongoing training for refs and that's for refs below the AIL. Every refs gets assessed at least 3 times pre Christmas and 3 post xmas and possibly more if theyre in the development system and are being earmarked for promotion to AIL etc and AIL refs are assessed virtually every week.
There is monthly meetings in each province and depending on the province meetings for the refs can be more than monthly.
There is very much ongoing training for referees in rugby from the meetings ive mentioned where laws/law changes are discussed as well as possible scanarios that may come up

How in the name of God do you make out it would be worse? It makes it far better. 20 referees may be a problem but more referees would certainly not increase inconsistencies. There will be situations where two referees call a ree at the same time in different directions but a quick consultation will sort it out - look at basketball. It also means more off the ball fouling is called which increases the skill level.

Basketball is played on a small court and has one referee with 2 umpires who're assistant to the main ref. Two referees isn't needed. Give the linesmen and umpires more powers but no need for a second referee.
Referees have different interpretations to rules and in fast fluid games this can certainly be worse.

In GAA - taking the slower of the two main sports there can be a player with the ball and 3-4 surrounding him and within 3 seconds the ball can be 100 yards away with a similar scenario. Gaelic Football moves far faster than rugby. Placed ball in rugby is basically your penalty, your lineout and a scrum. Penalty - Either a shot or a kick for touch with an offside rule so you've very specific place to look at for infringements. (22 drop out is the same). Lineout. Referee knows the ball has to be thrown in a straight ish line towards him so he has all relevant players in his view.
Scrum. Again ball has to go in at a particular point and even though it can be difficult to keep an eye on both sides of the scrum its all within a relatively small area. General play in rugby is a lot easier manage due to the offside rule. a kick forward is not going to find two or three or four guys jostling for possession.

That is nonsense and you are showing a fundamental lack of knowledge of rugby. You are forgetting about the complexities of rugby and issues with that. General play in rugby is much harder in face to manage because of the offside law as you have to check players from team in possession/team not in possession are/were onside or offside and able to play the ball at the next available opportunity

Mokuba

Black card in particular is a complete farce.

Referees just make up their own rules for what does or does not constitute a black card offense on any given day.

Some really, really shocking performances at championship level this year in football. Mayo v Cork/Tipp v Armagh were two absolutely appalling refereeing performances.

Do you know what would make the job far easier, in a lot of instances?.

Take away the two linesmen and make them additional referees.

Completely pointless having two guys making 2/3 decisions a game when any debatable ones are highly disputed. The majority are clear as day and there's no offsides/forward passes to watch to justify them standing out there.

Look at hurling, the ball can go the length in a matter of seconds.. how can a ref clearly adjudicate from the opposite end of the pitch.

It won't help some club games but county and higher club games would be improved immensely.

Work it similarly to AFL where they edge to the side of play to adjudicate boundary decisions.

BrianBoru00

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

I speak as a rugby ref and there most certainly is ongoing training for refs and that's for refs below the AIL. Every refs gets assessed at least 3 times pre Christmas and 3 post xmas and possibly more if theyre in the development system and are being earmarked for promotion to AIL etc and AIL refs are assessed virtually every week.
There is monthly meetings in each province and depending on the province meetings for the refs can be more than monthly.
There is very much ongoing training for referees in rugby from the meetings ive mentioned where laws/law changes are discussed as well as possible scanarios that may come up


Basketball is played on a small court and has one referee with 2 umpires who're assistant to the main ref. Two referees isn't needed. Give the linesmen and umpires more powers but no need for a second referee.
Referees have different interpretations to rules and in fast fluid games this can certainly be worse.


That is nonsense and you are showing a fundamental lack of knowledge of rugby. You are forgetting about the complexities of rugby and issues with that. General play in rugby is much harder in face to manage because of the offside law as you have to check players from team in possession/team not in possession are/were onside or offside and able to play the ball at the next available opportunity

How am I showing fundamental lack of rugby knowledge? The offside rule isn't that hard to referee.

Your just taking offence to the claim that rugby is easier to referee. You haven't added anything to the relevant discussion.

You've mentioned assessment in this post - referees at local level are assessed regularly also by members of the refereeing committee. Assessment is different to training

The Lost Sheep

Mokuba wrote: »

Black card in particular is a complete farce.

Referees just make up their own rules for what does or does not constitute a black card offense on any given day.

Some really, really shocking performances at championship level this year in football. Mayo v Cork/Tipp v Armagh were two absolutely appalling refereeing performances.

Black card isn't a farce and while perhaps what is a black card needs to be looked at and there is inconsistency between what is and isn't a black card offence but that will differ between referees and on each day and the circumstances leading to a black card just like any card in any sport

BrianBoru00 wrote: »

How am I showing fundamental lack of rugby knowledge? The offside rule isn't that hard to referee.

The offside law most certainly is an issue in rugby. There is offside in open play. offside at ruck/maul/scrum etc.

Your just taking offence to the claim that rugby is easier to referee. You haven't added anything to the relevant discussion.

You've mentioned assessment in this post - referees at local level are assessed regularly also by members of the refereeing committee. Assessment is different to training

Assessment at a lower level in rugby is actually "coaching" than assessment officially. Refs at lower levels are coached. They will meet an assessor prior to the game. The assessor at half time will help the referee with advice on issues that have arisen in the game and the ref needs to Improve on in second half.

gilberto_eire wrote: »

Do you know what would make the job far easier, in a lot of instances?.

Take away the two linesmen and make them additional referees.

Completely pointless having two guys making 2/3 decisions a game when any debatable ones are highly disputed. The majority are clear as day and there's no offsides/forward passes to watch to justify them standing out there.

Look at hurling, the ball can go the length in a matter of seconds.. how can a ref clearly adjudicate from the opposite end of the pitch.

It won't help some club games but county and higher club games would be improved immensely.

Work it similarly to AFL where they edge to the side of play to adjudicate boundary decisions.

Making the linesmen additional referees is fine but how much extra powers are they to receive???

rebel girl 15

nice_guy80 wrote: »

some referees don't know the rules

getting newer refs to do linesman for good referees can help build good practice

Whole rule book needs to be examined properly - there are two many grey areas that are open to interpretation. That's the cause of the inconsistency - if those grey areas are knocked out, then it makes it easier to be consistent.

This "get respect, give respect" lark is a pure joke - I agree with a previous poster about the intimidation of referees by mentors, this needs to be cut out. Blame the referee if things go wrong and not themselves.

Rugby is "easier" to referee as the rules are better and have much more clarity - however in reality it isn't as the technicalities of it are as hard as GAA if not harder. Clarify the rule book, provide proper training and follow up for all referees, especially club ones. You have all these development squads in every county at every age group, but what is done for the referees? Very little in many places - some fellas do a referees course and thats it, never anything else, and they get games. I've seen it in ladies football, where fellas did one course, or referee mens games (different rules!), go out and get games and ruin them by letting them be way too physical and outside the rules.

The Lost Sheep

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Whole rule book needs to be examined properly - there are two many grey areas that are open to interpretation. That's the cause of the inconsistency - if those grey areas are knocked out, then it makes it easier to be consistent.

This "get respect, give respect" lark is a pure joke - I agree with a previous poster about the intimidation of referees by mentors, this needs to be cut out. Blame the referee if things go wrong and not themselves.

Rugby is "easier" to referee as the rules are better and have much more clarity - however in reality it isn't as the technicalities of it are as hard as GAA if not harder. Clarify the rule book, provide proper training and follow up for all referees, especially club ones. You have all these development squads in every county at every age group, but what is done for the referees? Very little in many places - some fellas do a referees course and thats it, never anything else, and they get games. I've seen it in ladies football, where fellas did one course, or referee mens games (different rules!), go out and get games and ruin them by letting them be way too physical and outside the rules.

I dont see any issue with rules of a sport being open to interpretation but perhaps for hurling and gaelic considering some issues that occur in both and to help referees the rules should change to stop them being interpretated in so many ways.
What would you see as proper training and follow up for training for match officials?

rebel girl 15

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

What would you see as proper training and follow up for training for match officials?

Yearly refresher courses being run, especially for referees refereeing minor and upwards. Some sort of fitness standard being introduced - put two weekends of training on at the start of the year with a theory and fitness part. At the end of the day, these guys are being paid, and should have some standard of performance measured. Then observed once or twice during a year

BrianBoru00

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Yearly refresher courses being run, especially for referees refereeing minor and upwards. Some sort of fitness standard being introduced - put two weekends of training on at the start of the year with a theory and fitness part. At the end of the day, these guys are being paid, and should have some standard of performance measured. Then observed once or twice during a year

Already in place.

They are NOT paid - they get expenses - for inter county refs this is often swalled up bringing their umpires for dinner!

rebel girl 15

Not talking about inter county - all that is in place anyway for inter county

BrianBoru00

Its in place locally also

The Lost Sheep

rebel girl 15 wrote:

Yearly refresher courses being run, especially for referees refereeing minor and upwards. Some sort of fitness standard being introduced - put two weekends of training on at the start of the year with a theory and fitness part. At the end of the day, these guys are being paid, and should have some standard of performance measured. Then observed once or twice during a year

there should be a course for refs at start of each year but also should be monthly meetings where refs can discuss as a group issues that may arise in games. And this should be for all refs not just hose at the top. And are the refs paid that much anyway? The refs at the top level should be assessed for more than once or twice a year.
In rugby I'm a very middle tier ref and This season so far I've been assessed three times and been videoed another two occasions.

rebel girl 15

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

there should be a course for refs at start of each year but also should be monthly meetings where refs can discuss as a group issues that may arise in games. And this should be for all refs not just hose at the top. And are the refs paid that much anyway? The refs at the top level should be assessed for more than once or twice a year.
In rugby I'm a very middle tier ref and This season so far I've been assessed three times and been videoed another two occasions.

Everything I've suggested is for inter cub referees - all inter county referees have a high standard to hit anyway. Inter club, heard that it is between €40 or €50 a game

keeponhurling

kala85 wrote: »

There should be a referee analyst on the Sunday game.

This would clear it up a bit. A lot of the commentors don't even know the rules properly.

+100

The Lost Sheep

rebel girl 15 wrote: »

Everything I've suggested is for inter cub referees - all inter county referees have a high standard to hit anyway. Inter club, heard that it is between €40 or €50 a game

Thats mad. Would love that kind of pay per game in rugby.
That would be great if club refs got that level of assistance. Would be win win for everyone but who would you have doing it?
I wouldnt focus so much on fitness tests for most referees. If they are at a higher level like top underage, adult senior/intermediate and intercounty yes but lower levels fitness isnt needed as focus with other things that should be really focused on.
I still think meetings where all refs in a county/division within a county can meet and discuss rules/look at video clips on issues that they need to work on etc

nice_guy80

The Lost Sheep wrote: »

Thats mad. Would love that kind of pay per game in rugby.
That would be great if club refs got that level of assistance. Would be win win for everyone but who would you have doing it?
I wouldnt focus so much on fitness tests for most referees. If they are at a higher level like top underage, adult senior/intermediate and intercounty yes but lower levels fitness isnt needed as focus with other things that should be really focused on.
I still think meetings where all refs in a county/division within a county can meet and discuss rules/look at video clips on issues that they need to work on etc

what do rugby refs get for adult games?

The Lost Sheep

nice_guy80 wrote: »

what do rugby refs get for adult games?

For club games? Nothing bar travel expenses at 30c/km or so.

At club level I think the biggest issue to be addressed is half the parish being out on the sideline. Any tight calls or heavy hits are a recipe for disaster with so many subs and countless mentors in close proximity.

Managers thinking its their right to be out on the pitch contesting every call is very frustrating to watch. 20 different people going in with water during every break in play doesn't help the flow of games.

I think the gaa need to up their game with regards to umpires. I appreciate how difficult it is to get people to do that job and without being disrespectful to lads doing the job where hawkeye isn't available there's a lot of umpires chancing their arm. It's a tough job which needs good eye sight and mobility to move into the right position. The ref has so many tasks to handle and then we have 4 officials who are offering him no real assistance in general play.

Bonniedog

It is thankless job. And as you say the interference with refs is unacceptable. As for umpires.... done it myself and often been confused about scores, wides, and so on. However, it is one thing people doing it as helping out with club, and another where there is level of total incompetence at county level. Was at match in Portlaoise when we beat the Cats and one of the umpires was asking players and people behind the goal what they thought! As it happened his two bad calls cancelled one another out, but there needs to be proper training for the job. Everyone else on pitch and the line has.

The Lost Sheep

Borders no.2 wrote: »

At club level I think the biggest issue to be addressed is half the parish being out on the sideline. Any tight calls or heavy hits are a recipe for disaster with so many subs and countless mentors in close proximity.

Managers thinking its their right to be out on the pitch contesting every call is very frustrating to watch. 20 different people going in with water during every break in play doesn't help the flow of games.

I think the gaa need to up their game with regards to umpires. I appreciate how difficult it is to get people to do that job and without being disrespectful to lads doing the job where hawkeye isn't available there's a lot of umpires chancing their arm. It's a tough job which needs good eye sight and mobility to move into the right position. The ref has so many tasks to handle and then we have 4 officials who are offering him no real assistance in general play.

Oh certainly but how would you try stop it?
You couldnt go all out and ban people from sideline it would have to be gradual.
Like i can remember when i used be kind of still involved in my parish gaa club and id be going in to the dugout area walking in with team and subs and sit there beside the subs and coaches along with 15/20 other kids etc.
Limiting numbers and keeping them beyond fence(where one exists) needs to be enforced more strictly by officials
For umpires they should like referees have training/meetings on ways to improve

Bonniedog wrote: »

It is thankless job. And as you say the interference with refs is unacceptable. As for umpires.... done it myself and often been confused about scores, wides, and so on. However, it is one thing people doing it as helping out with club, and another where there is level of total incompetence at county level. Was at match in Portlaoise when we beat the Cats and one of the umpires was asking players and people behind the goal what they thought! As it happened his two bad calls cancelled one another out, but there needs to be proper training for the job. Everyone else on pitch and the line has.

What would you see as proper training for the job??