Costs of Irish unification.

murphaph · 14-12-2017 10:12AM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

This is the usual unionists are more important than Irish people nonsense that sustains the British Empire. If you come on to boards and claim that black people or women should have less rights, then you'd be banned, but Irish people living in the 6 couinties are fair game.

I don't care about the British empire or unionists. I care about the peace and stability of my country, which at present does not include the 6 counties.

I simply wouldn't vote for unity if it was being imposed on all the unionists against their will. That would be a clear sign to me that something was deeply wrong with the "product" being sold.

The GFA gives me that right!! Current polls suggest less than half of people would vote for a UI tomorrow in the south. There's a lot of convincing to do there and at present people aren't thinking too much about the negative consequences of a UI where a million people are vehemently opposed to it. The spectre of bombs in Dublin and Cork will focus minds.

If 50%+1 in the north and 50%+1 in the south carry a UI in their referendums then I'll consider it a Brexit style mistake by the electorate and hope against hope that it somehow works out without too many people being killed.

Charles Babbage · 14-12-2017 11:18AM

murphaph wrote: »

Please don't insult my intelligence by telling me northerners live happily amongst each other. The peace lines are still there. The hatred is alive and well.

Do people in Belcoo live less well with their neighbours than those in Blacklion?

murphaph wrote: »

I don't care about the British empire or unionists. I care about the peace and stability of my country, which at present does not include the 6 counties.

True. Germany does not include the 6 counties.

The GFA gives me that right!! Current polls suggest less than half of people would vote for a UI tomorrow in the south.

There has never been such a poll, you are attributing all the don't knows to No which is nonsense.
.

If 50%+1 in the north and 50%+1 in the south carry a UI in their referendums then I'll consider it a Brexit style mistake by the electorate and hope against hope that it somehow works out without too many people being killed.

Overthrowing democracy is not likely to reduce the number of people being killed, this requires promoting democracy. In any case, some kind of rigged vote will only delay the inevitable and create a long period of instability.

blanch152 · 14-12-2017 12:15PM

Charles Babbage wrote: »

Overthrowing democracy is not likely to reduce the number of people being killed, this requires promoting democracy. In any case, some kind of rigged vote will only delay the inevitable and create a long period of instability.

Democracy doesn't work in Northern Ireland. Why else do they need a rigged Government from the Assembly and petitions of concern?

As I have said before, a majority vote at the Northern Assembly to hold a referendum should be a precondition before a referendum is held. If the Northern Assembly isn't working, or a petition of concern blocks a vote on a referendum, then it shouldn't be held. Essentially before you have a democratic vote in Northern Ireland on unity, everyone up there needs to learn how to operate democracy.

maccored · 14-12-2017 02:25PM

arent you all jumping the gun (pardon the pun)? Theres no point in waffling on about what a UI would involve until the whole country deeply debates the subject. Going by some of the things posted here, its scary how simple minded some are of the subject.

maccored · 14-12-2017 02:26PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Democracy doesn't work in Northern Ireland.

was it ever tried?

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2017 02:35PM

maccored wrote: »

was it ever tried?

It was and it didn't work because the those who had the majority, abused it until the place erupted in flames.

Democracy only works when the majority take responsibility to govern fairly and equally. That didn't happen in northern Ireland and two government basically looked on and ignored it.

I agree with you on the 'costs of unification'.
Some random guesses about specific areas will not work.

maccored · 14-12-2017 02:45PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was and it didn't work because the those who had the majority, abused it until the place erupted in flames.

Democracy only works when the majority take responsibility to govern fairly and equally. That didn't happen in northern Ireland and two government basically looked on and ignored it.

I agree with you on the 'costs of unification'.
Some random guesses about specific areas will not work.

Unionist control wasn't democracy. pre 1998, you still cant call it a democracy as total control was never given to the assembly. parts of the north are still controlled from the UK so again, not democracy

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2017 02:51PM

maccored wrote: »

Unionist control wasn't democracy. pre 1998, you still cant call it a democracy as total control was never given to the assembly. parts of the north are still controlled from the UK so again, not democracy

True, but they pretend it is.

Red_Wake · 14-12-2017 02:54PM

maccored wrote: »

FrancieBrady wrote: »

It was and it didn't work because the those who had the majority, abused it until the place erupted in flames.

Democracy only works when the majority take responsibility to govern fairly and equally. That didn't happen in northern Ireland and two government basically looked on and ignored it.

I agree with you on the 'costs of unification'.
Some random guesses about specific areas will not work.

Unionist control wasn't democracy. pre 1998, you still cant call it a democracy as total control was never given to the assembly. parts of the north are still controlled from the UK so again, not democracy

Correct, control over some affairs are still determined from Westminster. A prime example of which is social welfare, responsibility for which was ceded back to Westminster when SF/DUP/Alliance were unwilling to carry out unpopular reforms.

jm08 · 14-12-2017 03:26PM

Northern Ireland has been controlled by unionists/British Government over the last 100 years and it is nothing but a failed state. It isn't working. Time to try something else.

One thing that the last year has shown is how impossible the DUP are to deal with and I have nothing but sympathy for moderate unionists and nationalists in Northern Ireland. Someone needs to help them out. Its time the Irish Government stood up to them, and I think Leo & Simon are capable of doing that. Being nice to the DUP doesn't work.

James Brown · 14-12-2017 04:01PM

murphaph wrote: »

I know it's not a real language but I also know that Irish is absolutely not their language. Heck, I've the most Irish surname of them all but I don't feel for a second that Irish is my language though I'm guessing you'll tell me it is.

You deride them but expect them to be our fellow citizens. It won't work like that. Triumphalism will fail like it failed when unionists did it. Consensus is the only path forward.

Personally it's that I don't believe they are attempting to achieve anything but point scoring. If the people genuinely want Ulster Scots to have the same reverence and support as their native tongue, Irish, fine. But that's for a referendum to decide not the bribe/tit for tat mentality that has Stormont where it is.

Like it or not the DUP/Unionists are our brothers and sisters. They are free to have any views they choose and the respect due any other group with a differing culture. We need to recognise that. They need to recognise that Ireland won't become more like Britain to suit their culture. They can have Scots Ulster' schools if they seriously want them, couldn't care less. I'd be embarrassed for them mind.
As the world moves on and ordinary people from all walks get on with living they can have their marches and flag waving if it keeps them happy. I would suggest it's loss of power worries the DUP most. With a reunified Ireland they'd have to govern based on working policies.

The politics might move along when the issue is looking after the people not getting one over the other team. Something that sorely needs to be addressed down south too.
The civil war centenary remembrances should be interesting.

looksee · 14-12-2017 04:21PM

Given the apparent reluctance in the Republic to separate church and state and remove the special place of the Catholic Church from the constitution - the government could not even agree to give up the prayer before business in the Dail - there might have to be a great deal of discussion about what we are offering to a United Ireland before we discuss what 'they' need to offer. How difficult would it be to persuade the people of the Republic that this is a new, combined Ireland rather than 'them' joining 'us'?

bobbysands81 · 14-12-2017 04:24PM

A quick question to the folk posting on here that don’t want a United Ireland.

Most of you are saying you don’t want it because of how the Unionist minority in a UI would “feel” and how it’s unfair to “drag” them into a United Ireland etc...

Given you seem to feel so strongly about equality and fairness have you ever spoken out about the inequalities suffered by the current minority in the 06, Irish nationalists?

I’m amazed that some of you are also saying that 50%+1 should not be adher d to. So, if you don’t believe in democracy (which hasn’t worked up the north due to major discriminatory policies carried out by the majority gleefully backed or ignored by two Governments) then what do you believe in?

jm08 · 14-12-2017 04:46PM

looksee wrote: »

Given the apparent reluctance in the Republic to separate church and state and remove the special place of the Catholic Church from the constitution - the government could not even agree to give up the prayer before business in the Dail - there might have to be a great deal of discussion about what we are offering to a United Ireland before we discuss what 'they' need to offer. How difficult would it be to persuade the people of the Republic that this is a new, combined Ireland rather than 'them' joining 'us'?

The special position of the Catholic Church was removed from the Constitution in 1973 (Fifth Amendment of the Constitution).

This is what Article 44 states about Religion:

ARTICLE 44
1 The State acknowledges that the homage of public worship is due to Almighty God. It shall hold His Name in reverence, and shall respect and honour religion.

2 1° Freedom of conscience and the free profession and practice of religion are, subject to public order and morality, guaranteed to every citizen.

2° The State guarantees not to endow any religion.

3° The State shall not impose any disabilities or make any discrimination on the ground of religious profession, belief or status.

4° Legislation providing State aid for schools shall not discriminate between schools under the management of different religious denominations, nor be such as to affect prejudicially the right of any child to attend a school receiving public money without attending religious instruction at that school.

5° Every religious denomination shall have the right to manage its own affairs, own, acquire and administer property, movable and immovable, and maintain institutions for religious or charitable purposes.

6° The property of any religious denomination or any educational institution shall not be diverted save for necessary works of public utility and on payment of compensation.

jimmycrackcorm · 14-12-2017 04:59PM

blanch152 wrote:

We all know our health service is completely inefficient, mostly due to overstaffing of nurses .

My OH is a nurse in a Dublin hospital. Due to a semi permanent shortage of nurses and people out sick a majority of her shifts now have her and one other nurse responsible for a ward of 34 patients. Some of the stories she tells me make for scary listening.

dok_golf wrote:

I would think that if we get to the stage of the north voting for reunification then Scotland will already be at the same stage in their journey to independence. The UK, imo, is well down the road of breaking up, the devolved governments already point to this. Brexit could well be the final straw.

I suspect the English would happily go their own way as they seen to have very nationalistic traits.

Fr Tod Umptious wrote:

I have no doubt that a unification referendum would pass in the current 26 county Ireland. The romanticism would beat the economic argument every time.

What would not beat it would be the UVF et al starting a bombing campaign in Dublin striking economic targets such as Facebook or Google.

After all they can point to the IRA campaign as a me fein excuse.

ancapailldorcha · 14-12-2017 05:17PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

I suspect the English would happily go their own way as they seen to have very nationalistic traits.

I'd disagree. The nationalism you allude to seems to be in no way incompatible with unionism. They do seem to be genuinely concerned for the union. David Cameron even went so far as to campaign for remain in Scotland in 2014. Then there is the fact that nobody even suggests ditching Northern Ireland despite it being a net drain on British coffers.

jm08 · 14-12-2017 05:31PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

I'd disagree. The nationalism you allude to seems to be in no way incompatible with unionism. They do seem to be genuinely concerned for the union. David Cameron even went so far as to campaign for remain in Scotland in 2014. Then there is the fact that nobody even suggests ditching Northern Ireland despite it being a net drain on British coffers.

Whatever about Scotland, they would be happy to ditch Northern Ireland. And you do read plenty of comments now about the British Gov. in hock to the DUP and that the UK should just get rid of NI.

There are plenty of reason why they want to hang onto Scotland - oil for one, and their nuclear submarine base on the west coast of Scotland would also be important as I don't think they have anywhere else they could base them.

blanch152 · 14-12-2017 05:38PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Personally it's that I don't believe they are attempting to achieve anything but point scoring. If the people genuinely want Ulster Scots to have the same reverence and support as their native tongue, Irish, fine. But that's for a referendum to decide not the bribe/tit for tat mentality that has Stormont where it is.

Like it or not the DUP/Unionists are our brothers and sisters. They are free to have any views they choose and the respect due any other group with a differing culture. We need to recognise that. They need to recognise that Ireland won't become more like Britain to suit their culture. They can have Scots Ulster' schools if they seriously want them, couldn't care less. I'd be embarrassed for them mind.
As the world moves on and ordinary people from all walks get on with living they can have their marches and flag waving if it keeps them happy. I would suggest it's loss of power worries the DUP most. With a reunified Ireland they'd have to govern based on working policies.

The politics might move along when the issue is looking after the people not getting one over the other team. Something that sorely needs to be addressed down south too.
The civil war centenary remembrances should be interesting.

Ireland does need to become more like Britain if unity happens. We have welcomed many ethnicities into this country and adapted schools, churches, shops, restaurants etc. for them. If we have a united Ireland, we will need to go much further than that to welcome the British community.

Take the flag issue. For years we have heard nationalists in the North proclaiming that the tricolour should be flown on official buildings, would they agree that the Union Jack should be allowed fly over Leinster House and the Aras if unity happens? Will they F***? Those are the difficult conversations we need to have if we are to truly welcome our unionist neighbours into a united Ireland.

As for rememberances, we must remember to celebrate the founding of the state, more important than the 1916 celebrations.

ancapailldorcha · 14-12-2017 05:41PM

jm08 wrote: »

Whatever about Scotland, they would be happy to ditch Northern Ireland. And you do read plenty of comments now about the British Gov. in hock to the DUP and that the UK should just get rid of NI.

There are plenty of reason why they want to hang onto Scotland - oil for one, and their nuclear submarine base on the west coast of Scotland would also be important as I don't think they have anywhere else they could base them.

Those are recent and refer to the current government. They're not targeted at Northern Ireland so much as the DUP which, frankly would do the world a favour by ceasing to exist.

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2017 05:48PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Ireland does need to become more like Britain if unity happens. We have welcomed many ethnicities into this country and adapted schools, churches, shops, restaurants etc. for them. If we have a united Ireland, we will need to go much further than that to welcome the British community.

Take the flag issue. For years we have heard nationalists in the North proclaiming that the tricolour should be flown on official buildings, would they agree that the Union Jack should be allowed fly over Leinster House and the Aras if unity happens? Will they F***? Those are the difficult conversations we need to have if we are to truly welcome our unionist neighbours into a united Ireland.

As for rememberances, we must remember to celebrate the founding of the state, more important than the 1916 celebrations.

Why would you fly the flag of a foreign state over the Irish Seat of government and The Aras?

The issue with the 'fleg' was the abnormal use of the union jack and what was wanted was normal flying, in line with other parts of the UK.

I would have no issue with a new flag to represent a new republic.

Something that represents the two traditions?

jm08 · 14-12-2017 05:55PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Ireland does need to become more like Britain if unity happens. We have welcomed many ethnicities into this country and adapted schools, churches, shops, restaurants etc. for them. If we have a united Ireland, we will need to go much further than that to welcome the British community.

Like what. There are a lot of British citizens living in Ireland already and they seem to be fine. We speak English and watch the BBC - what more do you want?

Take the flag issue. For years we have heard nationalists in the North proclaiming that the tricolour should be flown on official buildings, would they agree that the Union Jack should be allowed fly over Leinster House and the Aras if unity happens? Will they F***? Those are the difficult conversations we need to have if we are to truly welcome our unionist neighbours into a united Ireland.

Would the British Government want to fly the Union flag over Dail Eireann?

If they want to fly the Stormont flag, I don't see a problem. I think the reason they fly the Union flag is because the old Stormont Gov. one is banned by the British Gov.

blanch152 · 14-12-2017 05:57PM

FrancieBrady wrote: »

Why would you fly the flag of a foreign state over the Irish Seat of government and The Aras?

The issue with the 'fleg' was the abnormal use of the union jack and what was wanted was normal flying, in line with other parts of the UK.

I would have no issue with a new flag to represent a new republic.

Something that represents the two traditions?

I don't think we need to go as far as a new flag. Surely we should look up to Alex Maskey and the initiatives he has taken.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2236626.stm

Alternatively, we could severely restrict the display of the tricolour in order not to upset unionist sensitivities.

After all both of those measures were SF policy up North.

jm08 · 14-12-2017 06:02PM

ancapailldorcha wrote: »

Those are recent and refer to the current government. They're not targeted at Northern Ireland so much as the DUP which, frankly would do the world a favour by ceasing to exist.

If the Tories had any interest in NI, they would have a party and campaign in elections like they do in Scotland. Similarly for Labour.

They are only interested in them when they need a vote. John Majors could have utilised their support at the end of his tenure, but he didn't touch them.

James Brown · 14-12-2017 06:05PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think we need to go as far as a new flag. Surely we should look up to Alex Maskey and the initiatives he has taken.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2236626.stm

Alternatively, we could severely restrict the display of the tricolour in order not to upset unionist sensitivities.

After all both of those measures were SF policy up North.

A new flag is an option, restricting the display of the Irish flag, current or new, not to upset Irish citizens in Ireland is ridiculous.
If the British and DUP gave as much thought to the feelings of the Catholics and Nationalists in the North we might have had a completely different history.
Can we continue to call it 'Ireland' or maybe that might upset them?

looksee · 14-12-2017 06:05PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Ireland does need to become more like Britain if unity happens. We have welcomed many ethnicities into this country and adapted schools, churches, shops, restaurants etc. for them. If we have a united Ireland, we will need to go much further than that to welcome the British community.

But as I said, no one should be thinking of 'welcoming', it would have to be an equal coming together. They are already here, on the island, in their own homes. Neither side will be host or guest.

flutered · 14-12-2017 06:06PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

My OH is a nurse in a Dublin hospital. Due to a semi permanent shortage of nurses and people out sick a majority of her shifts now have her and one other nurse responsible for a ward of 34 patients. Some of the stories she tells me make for scary listening.

I suspect the English would happily go their own way as they seen to have very nationalistic traits.

What would not beat it would be the UVF et al starting a bombing campaign in Dublin striking economic targets such as Facebook or Google.

After all they can point to the IRA campaign as a me fein excuse.

they would not have the same military help supplies and intillegence as the had back in the day, with the possibility of an eu task force involved if trouble did start up again

flutered · 14-12-2017 06:10PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Ireland does need to become more like Britain if unity happens. We have welcomed many ethnicities into this country and adapted schools, churches, shops, restaurants etc. for them. If we have a united Ireland, we will need to go much further than that to welcome the British community.

Take the flag issue. For years we have heard nationalists in the North proclaiming that the tricolour should be flown on official buildings, would they agree that the Union Jack should be allowed fly over Leinster House and the Aras if unity happens? Will they F***? Those are the difficult conversations we need to have if we are to truly welcome our unionist neighbours into a united Ireland.

As for rememberances, we must remember to celebrate the founding of the state, more important than the 1916 celebrations.

why would the founding of the state be more important than 1916, everything seems to be to give from irelands point of view, now about say the unionist giving up their prediguces

blanch152 · 14-12-2017 06:19PM

flutered wrote: »

why would the founding of the state be more important than 1916, everything seems to be to give from irelands point of view, now about say the unionist giving up their prediguces

As a citizen of this country, it is more important to me.

jm08 · 14-12-2017 06:39PM

flutered wrote: »

why would the founding of the state be more important than 1916, everything seems to be to give from irelands point of view, now about say the unionist giving up their prediguces

We don't want to turn Ireland into the new Northern Ireland. People will need to learn to share the space with respect for all traditions. That might include 12th July and St. Patricks Day being holidays. 1916 or the Foundation of the State are fairly low key now, so I'd be happy if they were ignored as I think reunication will be much more significant than anything else and that is something everyone could celebrate.

FrancieBrady · 14-12-2017 06:45PM

blanch152 wrote: »

I don't think we need to go as far as a new flag. Surely we should look up to Alex Maskey and the initiatives he has taken.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/2236626.stm

Alternatively, we could severely restrict the display of the tricolour in order not to upset unionist sensitivities.

After all both of those measures were SF policy up North.

I think a new flag would be the easy way to handle it.

Nobody has a problem with foreign flags, but flying them on the seat of government or on the Aras to appease some 'sensitivities' would be cringeworthy.

Costs of Irish unification.

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