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Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

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    #1742
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    L1011 wrote: »
    Don't bother replying like this either if you don't want to reply to a post.

    Also, multi-quote / post rather than multiple posts in a row when at all possible, please.
    Ah, ever the height of impartiality you are. I'm out.


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    #1743
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    737max wrote: »
    Ah, ever the height of impartiality you are. I'm out.

    I'm not going to dignify you with the yellow card you are clearly fishing for.

    However, you are going to be held to "I'm out" for this thread as a result.


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    #1744
    Muahahaha
    Registered Users Posts: 19,619 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    737max wrote: »
    They have a right to discuss issues with Management but they can't dictate that management interact with a pan-european puppet body whose agenda doesn't tally with the greater interests of the company or the employees.

    So you allow pilots their legal rights to be represented but not their legal rights to be represented by a union ? This does not make much sense :confused:
    It is easier for me. I have a workers council representing my interests and the interests of the workers council and the employer are aligned. We're not confrontational and no outsiders with their own agendas are allowed stick their nose in to business which only relates to the employer and the employees.

    Your employers interests are to make as much profit as possible which means paying you a salary as low as you will accept without you going elsewhere for better wages. To state that an employees interests are aligned with an employer is illogical- both parties want to make as much money as possible which is obviously a conflicting situation where one party is going to lose out.


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    #1745
    pepe the prawn
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭pepe the prawn


    737max wrote: »
    won't be responding to that.

    Won’t be responding, or can’t respond? Actually, no need to answer, the adults know what the answer is anyway..

    Away with you gorsoon, safe home, keep in by the wall.


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    #1746
    boreder
    Registered Users Posts: 227 ✭✭boreder


    L1011 wrote: »
    Fire the bulk of the experienced captains and hire qualified replacements from where, exactly?
    L1011 wrote: »
    Also, I'd suggest you take a look at the conditions for experienced captains in airlines in those countries - its low hour FOs that get treated like dirt there. And its mostly captains striking here.
    L1011 wrote: »
    The cards are entirely in the pilots hands here - there is a global shortage, airlines willing to pay them more for better conditions near at hand (Easy, Norwegian etc).
    L1011 wrote: »
    A "temporary" issue that is the result of years of a problem building; and which there is little sign to suggest that is actually being resolved. And you are suggesting they fire huge amounts of the senior captains during it?
    L1011 wrote: »
    If Ryanair fired all the striking staff it would realistically take two to three years to get sufficient trained staff in place again to operate the current level of services. For an airline with strong growth ambitions, and catching up to do already due to this winters issues, that would spell a shareholder revolt and O'Leary out the door followed by a grovelling re-hire of the pilots by a new CEO.

    This may be obvious (I have zero knowledge of aviation industry), but I am curious to know that if there is such a crazy shortage of pilots, and they are in high demand, why are these guys trying to stick around in a company that apparently treats them so badly?

    Instead of striking, why don't they just walk into another job with better conditions and be done with it?

    The only reason I can reasonably think of is because they either 1) want to stick it to Ryanair and cause them hassle, 2) Like flying out of Dublin / in Europe and 3) For the craic
    L1011 wrote: »
    Of 84 who were eligible to vote. Only full time, employed, non-management grade pilots were eligible to vote.

    79/84 = overwhelming. You don't even get that % in CIE.

    That's not really a fair representation of the greater pilot population though. You could argue that the pilots who did not join the union are happy as they are, and therefore their answer is a 'No' which would change from 'overwhelming' to 'a small percentage'


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    #1747
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    pepe the prawn wrote: »
    Won’t be responding, or can’t respond? Actually, no need to answer, the adults know what the answer is anyway..

    Away with you gorsoon, safe home, keep in by the wall.

    They won't be replying so there's no need to go at them further.
    boreder wrote: »

    Instead of striking, why don't they just walk into another job with better conditions and be done with it?

    Its not that common (although it does happen) to walk in to a command role.
    boreder wrote: »

    That's not really a fair representation of the greater pilot population though. You could argue that the pilots who did not join the union are happy as they are, and therefore their answer is a 'No' which would change from 'overwhelming' to 'a small percentage'

    Its the only part of the pilot population eligible to strike. The others are "self employed" (in a highly dubious manner) mostly.

    Its actually still a decent % of the entire pilot base in Dublin, regardless.


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    #1748
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    737max wrote: »
    Ryanair now have to decide if they roster the troublemakers on that day and let them not turn up for work then strip them of their benefits or not roster them and continue with minimal impact on service.
    Are they not already rostered...?
    I thought that was the whole beauty of the current roster system...?


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    #1749
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    billy few mates wrote: »
    Are they not already rostered...?
    I thought that was the whole beauty of the current roster system...?

    They would be already rostered - and because those that have voted to strike are mostly captains it is unlikely there is sufficient cover with hours to actually cover them anyway


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    #1750
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #1751
    View Profile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭View Profile


    Fred Swanson wrote:
    Could he not sub in AC with crew?


    He doesn't have enough crew to do that without creating a hole in the network somewhere else.


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    #1752
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Ryanair could turn around and sack every one of those 79 highly experienced, highly qualified pilots if they really wanted to but where would their replacements come from? I would imagine the only suitably qualified candidates to replace them are already flying for Ryanair or would have to be lured in from another company, and who on would even consider taking up a job offer with a company that treated it's employees like that?

    Also the suggestion that the upcoming dispute is being orchestrated by a small number of disgruntled employees who are working out their notice contradicts assurances given previously that they are not still losing senior pilots.

    The constant refusal to acknowledge the problem by referring to the situation as an 'Aer Lingus Union' problem has a bit of a 'Comical Ali' feel to it, you can continue to deny it but a lie doesn't become the truth just because you keep repeating it.


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    #1753
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    From?

    No ACMI operator has enough to cover the entire hole. Indeed all together don't really.

    The usual strike-breaker du jour is Qatar but they don't either, and may not be that willing to deal with FR either.


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    #1754
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    As for the threat of withdrawing the favoured roster from the 'troublemakers', do they not have enough problems trying to crew the operation with the current rostering system without introducing another rostering system to punish those on the naughty list and trying to run them side by side? How would that even work, would the dissenters be rostered to fly together or would they try and mix and moderate?
    I would imagine the current rostering arrangement suits the company just as much as it suits the staff (or they wouldn't be doing it), to go changing it willy nilly for no other reason than to punish dissenters would be counter productive and downright crazy.


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    #1755
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    Baggage handlers in Dublin (SIPTU), Madrid airport handling staff, the Danish unions haven't managed to change anything yet. I reckon this will never garner enough momentum to make a change. Its bizzare the lack of cordination between unions to select a unified date for action. It will be too fragmented to make an impact. Even the Italian strike will be ignored due to ATC going on strike at the same time. It was a bad start by IALPA for public support with the date they've chosen.


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    #1756
    Irish Steve
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 6,521 Mod ✭✭✭✭Irish Steve


    This situation has been brewing and simmering quietly for a very long time, and with the increased demand for experienced pilots from other parts of the world, it has now reached critical mass, and is ready to either explode, or be defused, depending on a number of factors, some of which may prove to be outside of Ryanair's control or influence.

    What may prove to be a significant game changer is that the (dubious) self employed system that has been used for a number of years is (supposedly) close to being outlawed by the Government, as it has become a means to avoid a number of legitimate financial and social requirements that are part of a traditional employment process. That will be a serious game changer for Ryanair when it happens.

    Social Welfare and Revenue have been looking very closely at the loopholes being used to facilitate this avoidance, and it has become clear that the widespread abuse by the building trade as well as Ryanair have resulted in a clear determination by Government to eliminate this abuse of the system (and employees) as a matter of reasonable urgency, which will mean that some significant changes will be forced upon Ryanair without any further action being required by employees or the company, the only unknown being the precise timetable of these changes. Some of these changes may not make a lot of difference to the overall take home pay of the people involved, but it will change a number of peripheral issues related to things like state pensions, holiday pay, medical insurance, and some other related issues, which for some people will be a significant change.

    A number of accountants and related "professional" advisers are likely to be unhappy at the loss of a significant workload in processing the returns and other requirements of these contracting companies, but I for one will not lose any sleep over that loss, as the existence of these schemes was dubious at best, and very much not in the spirit of self employment legislation.

    I would like to hope that behind all the visible PR bluster and negativity, (which is unfortunately the stock in trade of MOL) there are some people within Ryanair's management who are seeing which way the wind is blowing on these issues, and are seeking to engage with the relevant pilots in a competent and constructive manner, with a view to finding an acceptable way to move things forward that will keep the people affected happy, and not cause any further damage to to long term future of the airline.

    Speaking personally, I would hope that the outcome of that process would be that IALPA remains marginalised, as I cannot see any benefit to the Ryanair pilots from having that organisation representing them, given their appalling track record over the last 25 years, but that will very much be down to the pilots at Ryanair to decide, and for those same pilots to persuade the management at Ryanair that there is a significant majority in favour of such representation, and I would like to hope that the Ryanair Pilots are also able to read the writing on the wall, and see the right direction for their choice.

    As to keeping the show on the road if the pilots do take strike action, given the size and dispersal of the Ryanair fleet, it is going to be a very serious problem to try and keep any sort of reliable service running in the event of some bases going out on strike, and if any of the other (Irish) unions decide to take sympathy action, or provide pickets, there's no telling what may remain operational, and having seen how these things can be manipulated at Dublin, I would be worried about the impact on the travel plans of people in the run up to Christmas, and strike action after the holiday period is unlikely to have the same effect. As to how much public sympathy there would be for strike action in the run up to Christmas, the jury is very much out on that one, and I wouldn't like to have to call that, it could go either way, a lot will depend on who is speaking for the parties involved, the wrong person speaking for either side could be very damaging to their arguments.

    I have to admit, I am very happy that my travel plans for this Christmas period are not going to depend on Ryanair to make them happen.

    Shore, if it was easy, everybody would be doin it.😁



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    #1757
    Mebuntu
    Registered Users Posts: 911 ✭✭✭Mebuntu


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    It was a bad start by IALPA for public support with the date they've chosen.
    Nothing new in that approach - it's a transport union. Whether it be train, bus or plane they always aim to cause the utmost pain to the travelling public, the very people who pay their wages.

    On the subject of picketing where will the picketers likely be? Am I correct in assuming they are not allowed to picket on DAA soil?


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    #1758
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    Mebuntu wrote: »
    Nothing new in that approach - it's a transport union. Whether it be train, bus or plane they always aim to cause the utmost pain to the travelling public, the very people who pay their wages.

    On the subject of picketing where will the picketers likely be? Am I correct in assuming they are not allowed to picket on DAA soil?

    This is not compareable to recent transport strikes we've seen. Sure the majority of staff will be passing the picket. I'd be expecting the Qatari A320 fleet in by early next week if it hasn't blown over.


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    #1759
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Mebuntu wrote: »
    Nothing new in that approach - it's a transport union. Whether it be train, bus or plane they always aim to cause the utmost pain to the travelling public, the very people who pay their wages.

    On the subject of picketing where will the picketers likely be? Am I correct in assuming they are not allowed to picket on DAA soil?

    Why would they need to picket...? :confused:
    It's not like they have an unlimited supply of pilots waiting to step in, they've already had to trim the schedule to suit the number of pilots they currently have.

    I'm also one of those people who consciously decided after the recent cancellations debacle that my Christmas travel plans are too important to jeopardise with a RYR flight, I've only flown with them once since the cancellations and that was because it was short notice and way cheaper than the alternative, that flight was half empty where on the previous occasions I've used it it was jam packed.


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    #1760
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    This is not compareable to recent transport strikes we've seen. Sure the majority of staff will be passing the picket. I'd be expecting the Qatari A320 fleet in by early next week if it hasn't blown over.

    Do you honestly think it's that simple...? :confused:


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    #1761
    pilly
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,005 ✭✭✭pilly


    Why would pilots who are simply serving their notice go on strike?

    That has to be an out and out lie.


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    #1762
    plodder
    Registered Users Posts: 7,166 ✭✭✭plodder


    Pilots are glorified bus drivers and I mean no disrespect to either pilots or bus drivers. The point being they do a well defined, constrained "job" where transparent pay scales and other T&Cs make sense. In that situation, their interests are probably best served by collective bargaining and independent representation I would suggest. Whether that representation comes from IALPA or someone else doesn't matter that much imo.


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    #1763
    Stevek101
    Registered Users Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭Stevek101


    pilly wrote: »
    Why would pilots who are simply serving their notice go on strike?

    That has to be an out and out lie.

    Didn't in transpire the first spokesperson was heading to Emirates and was serving out their notice at the time?
    billy few mates wrote: »
    Do you honestly think it's that simple...?

    I don't think its simple but this action will not lead to a solution. Until the action becomes unified across Europe I cannot see this amounting to anything. I highly doubt it'll even happen.


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    #1764
    Noxegon
    Registered Users Posts: 1,517 ✭✭✭Noxegon


    L1011 wrote: »
    The usual strike-breaker du jour is Qatar but they don't either, and may not be that willing to deal with FR either.

    I have to say that I'd be delighted to get Qatari service on Ryanair routes.

    Not sure MOL would want to pay for it though.

    I develop Superior Solitaire when I'm not procrastinating on boards.ie.



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    #1765
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Stevek101 wrote: »
    Didn't in transpire the first spokesperson was heading to Emirates and was serving out their notice at the time?

    Delivering a letter because you know you are moving on and don't fear reprisals, and you want to give your soon to be former colleagues a hand is one thing. Going on strike during your notice period is a very different one which makes much less sense.

    Also, Ryanair's press release says that:
    1) They acknowledge that "IALPA’s own numbers confirm that it has the support of less than 28% of Ryanair’s over 300 Dublin pilots" (i.e. 84 pilots)
    2) They believe that "this will largely be confined to a small group of pilots who are working their notice and will shortly leave Ryanair"

    Unless they are saying 84 pilots (most of their permanent pilots in Dublin) have served their notice (which I doubt is the case), these two statements kind of contradict each other.


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    #1766
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    28% is not a "small group" in any circumstances. Its also clearly not true. If 28% of my staff left in a short period of time I'd be going with them!


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    #1767
    View Profile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭View Profile


    Bob24 wrote:
    Unless they are saying 84 pilots (most of their permanent pilots in Dublin) has served their notice (which I doubt is the case).......


    If Dublin alone has 84 captains working their notice (which is not the case) then Ryanair have more heartache coming!


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    #1768
    LiamaDelta
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭LiamaDelta


    What are the chances of the other 'self employed ' contractor pilots going out on strike too or calling in sick?
    They haven't been ballotted so I presume there's no way of knowing what they'll do? If there's such a high percentage of staff (of those ballotted) in favour of action one could assume a similar amount of contractors feel the same way.


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    #1769
    billy few mates
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭billy few mates


    LiamaDelta wrote: »
    What are the chances of the other 'self employed ' contractor pilots going out on strike too or calling in sick?
    They haven't been ballotted so I presume there's no way of knowing what they'll do? If there's such a high percentage of staff (of those ballotted) in favour of action one could assume a similar amount of contractors feel the same way.

    Don’t know what the plan is here but many moons ago I was a contractor in a company that was prone to industrial unrest. From time to time the regular workforce were inclined to stop work for various reasons, the shop stewards always told us to continue as normal because they knew a contractor could be fired instantly for going on strike, they also knew we weren’t exactly going to break into a sweat in their absence. On one occasion one of the other contractors decided unilaterally to ‘down tools’ in support of his permanently employed colleagues, once the dispute had died down, everybody returned to work except this guy because he was dismissed for breaking the terms of his contract. Needless to say, nobody stopped work to support him.


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    #1770
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    As a contractor it doesn’t necessarily makes sense to strike.

    I assume contractor pilots would be subject to heavy penalties if they don’t deliver the service they were contracted for. And in any case since they’re not employees and more service providers their terms would be more a commercial dispute than a than a labour law related one.

    But now we all know Ryanair is disguising people who are virtually permanent staff as contractors, and those people could all get ill the same day.


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    #1771
    LiamaDelta
    Registered Users Posts: 800 ✭✭✭LiamaDelta


    Bob24 wrote: »
    As a contractor it doesn’t necessarily makes sense to strike.

    I assume contractor pilots would be subject to heavy penalties if they don’t deliver the service they were contracted for. And in any case since they’re not employees and more service providers their terms would be more a commercial dispute than a than a labour law related one.

    But now we all know Ryanair is disguising people who are virtually permanent staff as contractors, and those people could all get ill the same day.

    True but in the grand scheme of things surely a number of contractors would like to be direct employees and the way to help achieve this would be to support their colleagues. Ryanair have constructed the employment situation carefully so that there is no majority of direct employees over contractors, thus allowing for a natural division within the group which will weaken it.
    I also can't understand why cabin-crew haven't organised themselves in support also. It would seem that their conditions would merit an overhaul almost as much as the pilots.


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