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Ryanair Strike implications re Cancellations NO INDUSTRIAL RELATIONS POSTS

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    #1682
    View Profile
    Registered Users Posts: 1,133 ✭✭✭View Profile


    LeChienMefiant wrote:
    But not shareholders, who actually own the airline.


    You can't run a company successfully on a longterm basis if staff are disgruntled.

    Happy staff means happy customers means more money for shareholders!


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    #1683
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    View Profile wrote: »
    You can't run a company successfully on a longterm basis if staff are disgruntled.

    Happy staff means happy customers means more money for shareholders!
    Protected staff treat their Customers and Employers like sh*t.


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    #1684
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    737max wrote: »
    The logic holds true perfectly. Most mulit-nationals operate like this. Pay key staff well as long as they are flexible. Fight unions to the death.

    This move here is an obvious attempt at a power grab by the trade union movement against the entire industry; that won't end well for either the Airlines in general or the Consumer.

    I would have thought the inability to staff scheduled flights - due to issues in hiring and training new FOs, due to poor conditions and lack of training captains (itself due to poor conditions) - had already shown that the current model is neither good for the airline or the customer.

    The cards are entirely in the pilots hands here - there is a global shortage, airlines willing to pay them more for better conditions near at hand (Easy, Norwegian etc).


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    #1685
    LeChienMefiant
    Registered Users Posts: 620 ✭✭✭LeChienMefiant


    View Profile wrote: »
    You can't run a company successfully on a longterm basis if staff are disgruntled.

    Happy staff means happy customers means more money for shareholders!
    I'm sure Michael O'Leary would highly value your insight/opinion on how to run an airline. Maybe you should pop your CV on a postcard along with your idea and mail it in to him.


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    #1686
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    L1011 wrote: »
    I would have thought the inability to staff scheduled flights - due to issues in hiring and training new FOs, due to poor conditions and lack of training captains (itself due to poor conditions) - had already shown that the current model is neither good for the airline or the customer.
    Temporary issue which is being resolved presently.


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    #1687
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    737max wrote: »
    Temporary issue which is being resolved presently.

    A "temporary" issue that is the result of years of a problem building; and which there is little sign to suggest that is actually being resolved. And you are suggesting they fire huge amounts of the senior captains during it?


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    #1688
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    L1011 wrote: »
    A "temporary" issue that is the result of years of a problem building; and which there is little sign to suggest that is actually being resolved. And you are suggesting they fire huge amounts of the senior captains during it?
    Yip, for the longer term good. Pilots who don't present themselves for work are worth absolutely nothing to a company.


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    #1689
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    737max wrote: »
    Yip, for the longer term good. Pilots who don't present themselves for work are worth absolutely nothing to a company.

    So do you believe that employees should have no right to take industrial action?


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    #1690
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    737max wrote: »
    Yip, for the longer term good. Pilots who don't present themselves for work are worth absolutely nothing to a company.

    An airline which can't operate flights, or train new staff to operate them, is worth nothing to their shareholders or customers.

    These are quickly replaceable staff striking, and they aren't striking for the hell of it. Bullish statements like yours show zero understanding of the issue and zero understanding of business.

    If Ryanair fired all the striking staff it would realistically take two to three years to get sufficient trained staff in place again to operate the current level of services. For an airline with strong growth ambitions, and catching up to do already due to this winters issues, that would spell a shareholder revolt and O'Leary out the door followed by a grovelling re-hire of the pilots by a new CEO.


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    #1691
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    MoeJay wrote: »
    So do you believe that employees should have no right to take industrial action?
    They have a right to discuss issues with Management but they can't dictate that management interact with a pan-european puppet body whose agenda doesn't tally with the greater interests of the company or the employees.

    It is easier for me. I have a workers council representing my interests and the interests of the workers council and the employer are aligned. We're not confrontational and no outsiders with their own agendas are allowed stick their nose in to business which only relates to the employer and the employees.


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    #1692
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    L1011 wrote: »
    An airline which can't operate flights, or train new staff to operate them, is worth nothing to their shareholders or customers.

    These are quickly replaceable staff striking, and they aren't striking for the hell of it. Bullish statements like yours show zero understanding of the issue and zero understanding of business.

    If Ryanair fired all the striking staff it would realistically take two to three years to get sufficient trained staff in place again to operate the current level of services. For an airline with strong growth ambitions, and catching up to do already due to this winters issues, that would spell a shareholder revolt and O'Leary out the door followed by a grovelling re-hire of the pilots by a new CEO.
    Shareholders have the patience to wait for this issue to be sorted out so that their wealth is protected. Share price is down only 1.2% today. I'm not seeing shareholder unease.


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    #1693
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    737max wrote: »
    I'm not seeing shareholder unease.

    Because the strike hasn't happened yet, meaning there hasn't been a chance for anyone to go insane and take your suggestion yet.


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    #1694
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    737max wrote: »
    They have a right to discuss issues with Management but they can't dictate that management interact with a pan-european puppet body whose agenda doesn't tally with the greater interests of the company or the employees.

    That’s rather a large presumption about what it going on here.

    So is it your position that employees cannot decide who and in what form their interests should be represented to their management?


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    #1695
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    MoeJay wrote: »
    That’s rather a large presumption about what it going on here.

    So is it your position that employees cannot decide who and in what form their interests should be represented to their management?
    The facts as presented bear this out.
    79 pilots in Dublin have voted to strike.
    The Union is an Aer Lingus Union.
    The Unions which have captured their respective Airlines in Italy and Germany are making all the noises that you'd expect of them.


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    #1696
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    L1011 wrote: »
    Because the strike hasn't happened yet, meaning there hasn't been a chance for anyone to go insane and take your suggestion yet.
    Did Volkswagen's share price collapse before or after the fines were imposed?


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    #1697
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    737max wrote: »
    The Union is an Aer Lingus Union.

    It isn't an Aer Lingus union.

    If you are going to state things as facts, please ensure they are facts.
    737max wrote: »
    Did Volkswagen's share price collapse before or after the fines were imposed?

    The fines were a certainty. Your insane suggestion is not.


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    #1698
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    L1011 wrote:
    You are suggesting they pay different pilots higher amounts to keep that flexibility. That increases costs even more

    Your logic on this does not hold.

    Quite common in IT especially for contractors.
    The logic does hold when it comes to the potential cost of unions turning FR j into the equivalent of BE. Why else the need for collective bargaining?


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    #1699
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    L1011 wrote: »
    It isn't an Aer Lingus union.

    If you are going to state things as facts, please ensure they are facts.



    The fines were a certainty. Your insane suggestion is not.
    Yeah, we'll disagree here.


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    #1700
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    The way the letter is worded makes it clear this is about a power grab by the IALPA, and previous indications and statements in the last few months suggest that there is a motivation to assist their members in other airlines through such strike action.

    The letter from Impact as published on the Ryanair site makes it abunduntely clear that IALPA are not happy with merely representing Ryanair pilots in Ireland, they want to use it to grow Europe wide.
    Continue to fail to recognise the EERC or IALPA as the representative body for pilots in Ryanair including IALPA's Members

    If IALPA really are serious about helping Ryanair's Dublin staff and there is no other agenda behind it, I would expect them to allow Ryanair Pilots to run the Ryanair section of their union independently without the interference from other airlines pilots and without trying to turn themselves into a union representing Ryanair Europe Wide.

    Then maybe I'd take them more seriously but for now it's clear the staff in Ryanair are being used as a pawn in a much bigger game on behalf of legacy airlines staff such as Aer Lingus.


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    #1701
    CoisFharraige
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭CoisFharraige


    737max wrote: »
    The facts as presented bear this out.
    79 pilots in Dublin have voted to strike.
    The Union is an Aer Lingus Union.
    The Unions which have captured their respective Airlines in Italy and Germany are making all the noises
    The facts as presented bear this out.

    This doesn't take away from the fact that there are senior captains in Dublin who are very unhappy with their working conditions and with the way they are treated - 'Aer Lingus Union' or not. There is a very serious problem here that cannot be undermined because of the fact that there is a union with an agenda - please keep O'Leary's senseless rhetoric off the thread, it's sickening enough from one person.


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    #1702
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    737max wrote: »
    Yeah, we'll disagree here.

    Might you however enlighten us as to is it your position that employees cannot decide who and in what form their interests should be represented to their management?


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    #1703
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    CoisFharraige wrote: »
    This doesn't take away from the fact that there are senior captains in Dublin who are very unhappy with their working conditions and with the way they are treated - 'Aer Lingus Union' or not. There is a very serious problem here that cannot be undermined because of the fact that there is a union with an agenda - please keep O'Leary's senseless rhetoric off the thread, it's sickening enough from one person.
    Throughout my working life I've had to work alongside people who weren't happy with their conditions and those who don't know how good they have got it. It is only natural that'll you'll find people of that type in every organisation including Ryanair.
    Far away pastures are greener and whatnot...


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    #1704
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    MoeJay wrote: »
    Might you however enlighten us as to is it your position that employees cannot decide who and in what form their interests should be represented to their management?
    Yeah, where I am once a company is above a certain size the workers are represented in the proscribed manner, not in the manner proposed for them by former employees who have now moved to another company.


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    #1705
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    737max wrote: »
    Yeah, where I am once a company is above a certain size the workers are represented in the proscribed manner, not in the manner proposed for them by former employees who have now moved to another company.

    That's key for me - IALPA lack credibility when it's clear all of the statements and direction of said union in this issue is clearly coming from staff who have never worked for Ryanair and in most cases work or have worked for it's competitors.

    It would be nice to see some actual Ryanair staff come out and make statements on behalf of their members, but I really cannot see that happening as staff from other airlines are at the controls and the Ryanair staff are merely the consenting passengers.


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    #1706
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    737max wrote: »
    If that statement is right about it being mostly Pilots who are working out their notice period then I don't see how they can maintain a sustained campaign against the company.

    Just the first phrase of the press release makes it clear it is going to bend the truth close to the point of breaking it and shouldn’t be taken at face value: “Ryanair has this afternoon received the attached notice from the Aer Lingus pilots union IALPA”.

    That large chuck of IALPA members are aerlingus pilots is one thing, but calling it “Aer Lingus pilots union IALPA” is starting to be dishonest. The clue is in the name and they will represent any pilot based in Irlenad, not just Aer Lingus’. For exemple if I google IALPA and CityJet I can see they are also involved wit that airline.


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    #1707
    MoeJay
    Registered Users Posts: 491 ✭✭MoeJay


    737max wrote: »
    Yeah, where I am once a company is above a certain size the workers are represented in the proscribed manner, not in the manner proposed for them by former employees who have now moved to another company.

    You don't have to spin the answer, if you don't like workers deciding how they are represented fine. But at least it'll inform the debate here.


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    #1708
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    Spin?


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    #1709
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,604 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Bob24 wrote: »
    That large chuck of IALPA members are aerlingus pilots is one thing, but calling it “Aer Lingus pilots union IALPA” is starting to be dishonest. The clue is in the name and they will represent any pilot based in Irlenad, not just Aer Lingus’. For exemple if I google IALPA and CityJet I can see they are also involved wit that airline.

    Unfortunately in that letter the IALPA made it clear they were no longer happy about just representing pilots based in Ireland and are now looking to use this as a vehicle to use to try and expand their reach across the whole of Ryanair operating territory as part of a power grab.

    If they really wanted to focus on helping the Ryanair Pilots in Ireland that would be their first and last priority but from everything I have seen they are looking after other interests as well here such as that of the union as a whole and it's members in other airlines.

    Lets not forget that a number of people in the IALPA are currently going through legal channels in relation to defamation in relation to Ryanair which makes it clear at least some people in that organisation have a chip on their shoulder about Ryanair I'd say, so are going to use this as a chance for some retribution.


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    #1710
    L1011
    Registered Users Posts: 68,123 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    devnull wrote: »
    That's key for me - IALPA lack credibility when it's clear all of the statements and direction of said union in this issue is clearly coming from staff who have never worked for Ryanair and in most cases work or have worked for it's competitors.

    The overwhelming acceptance of the ballot by the staff suggests that if the direction is coming from outside they have no issue with it whatsoever.

    IALPA have always represented pilots for Irish airlines wherever - back in the days when there was just Irish airline they had a sizeable base in Manchester for instance - as well as Irish pilots wherever. O'Leary is the one who tries to push the idea that it is the "Aer Lingus union" when it never has been.


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    #1711
    737max
    Closed Accounts Posts: 993 ✭✭✭737max


    L1011 wrote: »
    The overwhelming acceptance of the ballot by the staff suggests that if the direction is coming from outside they have no issue with it whatsoever..
    Seems to be only 79 people to me. 79 people does not equal overwhelming acceptance.


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