The Hazards of Belief

seamus · 23-11-2017 02:56PM

robindch wrote: »

Mike Hughes has built himself a steam-powered rocket, painted it red, and with it, he intends to briefly leave this cold, flat Earth.

"It’ll shut the door on this ball earth", explained the former chauffeur and holder of a 2002 Guinness World Record for the longest jump in a limousine.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2017/11/21/this-man-is-about-to-launch-himself-in-his-homemade-rocket-to-prove-the-earth-is-flat/

Funny article.

Have to give the guy kudos for his 4-second steam-propelled flight in 2014. That didn't happen by accident.

Don't fully get the logic of putting a person in it for test flights though unless it's all about being a daredevil.

Real salt-of-the-earth Trump man - "I need more money for the next phase of this rocket launch, and, uh....oh yeah, this flat earth thing is great! I've just recently become a believer. Any of you guys got some money to give me?"

robindch · 24-11-2017 12:49AM

Nibaru may or may not have whizzed past back in September or October (delete as appropriate), but it seems that not everybody is so sure.

A man in a ski-mask and a troublesome set of spectacles thinks that Elon Musk is in on the wheeze and last Thursday, may have indicated that we'd all be interstellar dust again by Sunday evening. The Daily Star has that story for you here.

https://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/660844/Nibiru-planet-x-nasa-november-end-of-world

The Daily Star quotes a video from a youtube channel called 'Nibiru News', which resides here:

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiy7dQJOlFILitze1zwv0Zg

And, interestingly, the main trash-news site linked to from the Nibiru channel above is called http://www.someonesbones.com/ and - here's a fun surprise - approximately every second story is Russian-interest and while there's no clear indication who owns, runs or writes for the site, the site's about page contains a broken link to somebody called Vladimir Vladimirovich, which, by a most surprising coincidence, are the first two of Putin's three names.

http://www.someonesbones.com/

robindch · 27-11-2017 03:28PM

seamus wrote: »

Have to give the guy kudos for his 4-second steam-propelled flight in 2014. That didn't happen by accident.

The Bureau of Land Management has told Mr Hughes that he can't launch his steam-powered rocket from their property. That, and a mechanical breakdown on his driveway have prevented the launch from going ahead.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/25/flat-earther-postpones-steam-powered-rocket-flight-motorhomelaunchpad/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IWapLcMh6kw

recedite · 27-11-2017 06:11PM

robindch wrote: »

and a mechanical breakdown on his driveway ..

Could be tricky claiming insurance money for the repairs.
Sir, have you made any material alterations to the vehicle, this ehh "motorhome slash rocket launcher" ?

robindch · 29-11-2017 10:17AM

Poland's hardline Law+Justice party has approved a law which, over the next three years, bans shopping on Sunday, thereby keeping its Catholic supporters happy.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-11-24/poland-s-conservative-government-approves-ban-on-sunday-shopping

Hotblack Desiato · 29-11-2017 10:23AM

Sad to see a country make the same sort of swap-one-oppressor-for-another mistakes we did all those decades ago.

Doesn't help that so many younger voters have emigrated.

recedite · 29-11-2017 10:39AM

Sunday trading is a complex social issue, as well as a religious one.
Neighbouring Germany has severe restrictions, as does France and the UK.
Poland and RoI are actually far more liberal than most in this regard, so it can't be just a "catholic" thing.

Peregrinus · 29-11-2017 10:43AM

recedite wrote: »

Sunday trading is a complex social issue, as well as a religious one.
Neighbouring Germany has severe restrictions, as does France and the UK.
Poland and RoI are actually far more liberal than most in this regard, so it can't be just a "catholic" thing.

The article that Robin links to notes that the measure is also supported by the trade union movement, and that's not terribly surprising, when you think about it.

recedite · 29-11-2017 10:49AM

The bill was actually proposed by their Solidarity trade union.

robindch · 07-12-2017 10:52AM

For anybody in Canada next month, make sure you visit St Xavier, or at least his severed forearm:

"Well, at first glance if you're far away it just looks like the skeleton of an arm because it's kind of sunken in and the skin is kind of dry. But when you can come closer you can see, oh my goodness there is meat on those bones, this is this is an arm."

http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/as-it-happens-thursday-edition-1.4426549/november-30-2017-episode-transcript-1.4429596

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xma3v/theres-a-severed-arm-touring-canada-and-its-metal-as-hell

silverharp · 12-12-2017 06:27PM

Nice people but the State is a pox

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2017 03:04AM

robindch wrote: »

For anybody in Canada next month

It'd cost me an arm... and a leg

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2017 03:05AM

recedite wrote: »

The bill was actually proposed by their Solidarity trade union.

They're pretty catholic. Not like western trade unions. Think 100+ years ago when Irishness and devotional catholicism got conflated.

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 04:47AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They're pretty catholic. Not like western trade unions. Think 100+ years ago when Irishness and devotional catholicism got conflated.

Trade unions in Australia also oppose Sunday opening and, believe me, it has nothing to do with Catholicism. It has to do with overtime rates.

Seriously, its perfectly obvious why an organisation whose business it is to advance the interests of workers would have concerns about laws regulating the working week. You don't have to look to religious influences to explain this.

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2017 09:08AM

They should be looking to have overtime rates regulated then, rather than banning Sunday opening.

Ancient pseudo-Chinese proverb : where some see crisis (of faith) others see (financial) opportunity

Hotblack Desiato · 15-12-2017 09:12AM

As an aside, I'm pretty sure we had the only armed socialist proletarian revolution where the rosary was said multiple times per day

Peregrinus · 15-12-2017 09:17AM

Hotblack Desiato wrote: »

They should be looking to have overtime rates regulated then, rather than banning Sunday opening.

The two are linked, Hotblack. If Sunday becomes normal trading hours, it's that bit more difficult to hold out for overtime rates for Sunday work. Whereas if there are limits on an employer's ability to compel workers to work on a Sunday, the employees 'bargaining position in regards to what employers have to offer him to get agreement to work on Sunday is much stronger.

When trade unions successfully bargain for shorter or limited working hours, the dominant outcome is usually not that workers work fewer hours. Some do, but mostly the outcome is that they work the same hours, but get paid more for it.

All together, now! Cue music! "Arise, ye workers of the world . . ."

smacl · 15-12-2017 01:08PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

All together, now! Cue music! "Arise, ye workers of the world . . ."

Don't know if you've watched Matewan P, well worth a punt if you haven't

Regarding Sunday work, it is also worth remembering that the small retail sector is currently being hammered by on-line vendors where a large part of their sales come at the weekend. I think putting many of them under more pressure will simply force them out of business, where the Aldi's and LIDL's of this world could suck it up without too much impact. As such, I'm of the opinion that restricting Sunday working hours doesn't benefit us.

silverharp · 15-12-2017 01:24PM

there is a bit of a class issue here, nobody expects to be able to ring up their insurance or bank on a Sunday but retail is expected to sweat their assets and trade as much as possible. Its facilitated by open labour markets at the low end and the consequences are things like higher rents which creates a vicious circle to trade more to pay the rents.

Actually Im amazed there even is a "high street" these days given how much is bought on line and in the long run leaves Sunday trading as a minor issue.

robindch · 17-12-2017 12:11PM

Religious organization which worships Jesus and consumes alcohol during religious services declares that a religious organization which worships Jesus and which consumes alcohol at their religious services is "a cult". This is confirmed by the splendidly-named Archbishop Sithole.

https://www.iol.co.za/news/south-africa/gauteng/council-brands-boozing-church-as-cult-and-a-disgrace-to-christianity-12410602

IOL wrote:

Pretoria - Bishop Tsietsi Makiti of The Gabola Church said the South African Union Council of Independent Churches must consult with him first, before making “false allegations” against him and his congregation. This follows a media briefing of the council that branded the alcohol-drinking church as a cult and a disgrace to Christianity. The council said talking about God in taverns was disrespectful to the Christian faith.

The council intends to close the church but has no concrete plan as yet, and says it will remain in prayer until it is shut down. Within just four months of opening, Makiti said there were now branches in Bloemfontein, Klerksdorp, Sebokeng and Joburg and he had plans to expand to Lesotho, Tanzania, Zambia and eventually overseas.

“They need to consult with me, before making up all these stories. I help combat crime in the various communities and assist with burials and the needs of community members that the church can’t because they are too busy judging people,” said Makiti. He converted tavern owners to pastors and this improved the community drastically. The council wants to embark on an investigation to find who ordained him and qualified him as a bishop.

“In order to be a bishop you must first have been a pastor under another leader for two years and must have attended Bible school, following your calling and being trained under a senior leader of the church,” said Archbishop Lena Perumal, who is the deputy general secretary of the council. However, Makiti said he has been a deacon and pastor since 1993 and has long completed his theology studies. “My church is a way of making people forget their troubles and the worries of this world. This is what Jesus also did with his disciples; he turned water into wine,” he said.

Perumal and the other members of the council argued that the wine in the days of Jesus did not have a high volume of alcohol. “Jesus created that miracle to protect the family from embarrassment and it was not fermented and not high in alcohol, like the ones we get today.” The council said it was disturbed that “this apostle or whatever he calls himself” is making men feel better about spending money at taverns and making them feel guiltless, all in the name of the church.

According to the council, a church is a sacred place for the holy, chosen people and its congregants need to be different and not partake in all the sinister shenanigans people who are not part of the church partake in.

Archbishop Patrick Sithole, president of the council, said it was the mandate of the church to win back lost souls, who include people who drink and smoke. “You cannot drink beer while worshipping God. It is not acceptable to use the name of God while drinking,” said Sithole. Bishop Owen McGregory, executive of the council, shared the sentiments of Sithole and agreed with the statement that everyone should come to church “as they are” but they needed to change for the “better”. “Alcohol leaves you clouded and you cannot approach the throne of God in that state.”

The council concluded by saying that alcohol was destructive and one needed to be sober-minded when dealing with the things of God. We are not judging people, we are correcting and rebuking them, and that is what the Bible says we as the priesthood should do,” said McGregory.

According to the council, the Gabola Church was a clear sign or indication of the last days.

Peregrinus · 18-12-2017 04:39AM

smacl wrote: »

Don't know if you've watched Matewan P, well worth a punt if you haven't

Regarding Sunday work, it is also worth remembering that the small retail sector is currently being hammered by on-line vendors where a large part of their sales come at the weekend. I think putting many of them under more pressure will simply force them out of business, where the Aldi's and LIDL's of this world could suck it up without too much impact. As such, I'm of the opinion that restricting Sunday working hours doesn't benefit us.

It is generally the case that liberalisation of retail trading hours is supported by large retailers and opposed by small retailers, and that when trading hours are liberalised that is followed by increased domination of the retail market by the large retailers, and a reduction in competition.

In short, liberalisation of trading hours has bad outcomes for workers and bad outcomes for small businesses. It has mixed outcomes for consumers - more choice about when to buy, e.g, groceries or clothing but less choice about who to buy them from. The unqualified winners are the large retailers.

You'd think the denizens of a forum devoted to advocating scepticism would be able to nut this out for themselves instead of mindlessly swallowing the kool-aid doled out by Bloomberg, the tool of the capitalist oppressors.

silverharp · 18-12-2017 07:56AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is generally the case that liberalisation of retail trading hours is supported by large retailers and opposed by small retailers, and that when trading hours are liberalised that is followed by increased domination of the retail market by the large retailers, and a reduction in competition.

In short, liberalisation of trading hours has bad outcomes for workers and bad outcomes for small businesses. It has mixed outcomes for consumers - more choice about when to buy, e.g, groceries or clothing but less choice about who to buy them from. The unqualified winners are the large retailers.

You'd think the denizens of a forum devoted to advocating scepticism would be able to nut this out for themselves instead of mindlessly swallowing the kool-aid doled out by Bloomberg, the tool of the capitalist oppressors.

put some numbers on it? you seem to be trying to sneak in all the effects of large retail companies under sunday trading which would obviously be nonsense.

Peregrinus · 18-12-2017 08:21AM

silverharp wrote: »

put some numbers on it? you seem to be trying to sneak in all the effects of large retail companies under sunday trading which would obviously be nonsense.

It would obviously be nonsense but, no, that's not what I'm saying. Obviously, large multiple are squeezing out small independents anyway; that's how they get to be large multiples. The point is that the liberalisation of trading hours tends to intensify this.

I'm not, off the top of my head, able to put figures on this, or pull up cites. I looked into it a few years ago when, in the place where I am now living, there was a referendum on proposed extensions to Sunday trading. (The proposal was defeated).

You can, though, skip the literature review and cut to the chase by just looking at how the various trade bodies, interest groups, etc tog out whenever there is a proposal in this area. The large multiples are enthusiastic supporters; the trade unions and the independent traders, in rare alliance, are opposed. And you can safely assume that they are all seeking to serve their respective intersets. It's not necessary to hypothesize that they are the pawns of sinister papal brainwashing to explain what's going on.

silverharp · 18-12-2017 09:33AM

in the online age though its very marginal. if you were to survey online companies they would love Sunday trading to be abolished as a lot of people wouldnt wait til Monday but would look for the items on line.

also in your argument is an implicit subjective value judgement about large v small retailers. there is no "correct" structure

Peregrinus · 18-12-2017 09:38AM

silverharp wrote: »

in the online age though its very marginal. if you were to survey online companies they would love Sunday trading to be abolished as a lot of people wouldnt wait til Monday but would look for the items on line.

I think that depends. The supermarkets are certainly keen on Sunday opening. Clothing retailers are also aware that there's a signficant cohort who want to feel the fabric and/or try on the garment before they are comfortable buying. That goes in spades for shoe retailers. Whereas, say, booksellers and the suppliers of entertainment in various media would lean the other way.

silverharp wrote: »

also in your argument is an implicit subjective value judgement about large v small retailers. there is no "correct" structure

True, but irrelevant to my point, which is that peoples' attitudes here are driven by their own interest more than by their religious belief.

silverharp · 18-12-2017 09:48AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

I think that depends. The supermarkets are certainly keen on Sunday opening. Clothing retailers are also aware that there's a signficant cohort who want to feel the fabric and/or try on the garment before they are comfortable buying. That goes in spades for shoe retailers. Whereas, say, booksellers and the suppliers of entertainment in various media would lean the other way.

True, but irrelevant to my point, which is that peoples' attitudes here are driven by their own interest more than by their religious belief.

religious belief cant be a reason in itself , and the trading rule seems like a very diluted form that one is not supposed to work on sunday. they didnt envisage a society where some people have to work 24/7

Peregrinus · 18-12-2017 09:57AM

silverharp wrote: »

religious belief cant be a reason in itself , and the trading rule seems like a very diluted form that one is not supposed to work on sunday. they didnt envisage a society where some people have to work 24/7

If "they" refers to the Hebrew culture that came up with the "keep holy the sabbath day" rule, they certain did envisage a society where some people have to work seven days, since they had dairy produce.

(They didn't envisage a society where some people would have to work 24/7 but, then, neither do we. You'd die within a very short time from lack of sleep if you tried that.)

Religion aside, I think pretty well all societies come up with conventional social patterns of work and rest, since having a balance between the two is, basically, good for us, and a society which has structures that promote this will do better than one that doesn't. And there's merit in the idea of shared, common patterns of work and rest, since the quality of my recreation time is greatly enhanced if my nearest and dearest have recreation time which overlaps with it. You don't need to be remotely religious to arrive at insights like this, or to seem the merit in defending existing work/recreation patterns even if you have no stake at all in the religious justifications offered for them. So the idea of the 40-hour week and the two-day weekend as the norm for employment has a lot of appeal to people who don't particularly care that one of the two days is Sunday.

(We're possibly getting a bit away from the hazards of belief here, and trespassing on the tolerance of others. Just sayin'.)

silverharp · 18-12-2017 10:24AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

If "they" refers to the Hebrew culture that came up with the "keep holy the sabbath day" rule, they certain did envisage a society where some people have to work seven days, since they had dairy produce.

(They didn't envisage a society where some people would have to work 24/7 but, then, neither do we. You'd die within a very short time from lack of sleep if you tried that.)

Religion aside, I think pretty well all societies come up with conventional social patterns of work and rest, since having a balance between the two is, basically, good for us, and a society which has structures that promote this will do better than one that doesn't. And there's merit in the idea of shared, common patterns of work and rest, since the quality of my recreation time is greatly enhanced if my nearest and dearest have recreation time which overlaps with it. You don't need to be remotely religious to arrive at insights like this, or to seem the merit in defending existing work/recreation patterns even if you have no stake at all in the religious justifications offered for them. So the idea of the 40-hour week and the two-day weekend as the norm for employment has a lot of appeal to people who don't particularly care that one of the two days is Sunday.

(We're possibly getting a bit away from the hazards of belief here, and trespassing on the tolerance of others. Just sayin'.)

just to clarify, I meant some people have to be working at every hour of the day. Public transport for example is a near necessity on a Sunday . People have to keep power stations running during the night and other institutions have to be run on a 24/7 basis like hospitals and prisons, police yada yada.
At the end of the day nearly every employee has at least 1 or 2 "rest" days during the week which is the important thing.
tolerance of who? you lost me

smacl · 18-12-2017 10:40AM

Peregrinus wrote: »

And there's merit in the idea of shared, common patterns of work and rest, since the quality of my recreation time is greatly enhanced if my nearest and dearest have recreation time which overlaps with it. You don't need to be remotely religious to arrive at insights like this, or to seem the merit in defending existing work/recreation patterns even if you have no stake at all in the religious justifications offered for them.

I suppose you have to look at what people's preferred form of recreation is these days though, and who has to forego getting a Sunday off to support it. In Ireland in the past, it included going to church so the poor priest was the fall guy having to work Sundays. Today, entirely miserable as it may seem to me, retail therapy seems to be the preferred form of recreation for many, so the humble IKEA worker has that cross to bear. That said, I enjoy my wander around the farmers market on a Sunday after a stroll in Marlay with the family, and do appreciate the good folks running it on my day off. Whatever about retail in general, we accept and expect a number of people to work for us on days we have off. Where would you draw the line? Coffee shops and cafés, street markets, leisure and outdoor activity centres?

Hotblack Desiato · 18-12-2017 01:55PM

Peregrinus wrote: »

It is generally the case that liberalisation of retail trading hours is supported by large retailers and opposed by small retailers, and that when trading hours are liberalised that is followed by increased domination of the retail market by the large retailers, and a reduction in competition.

It was traditionally the smallest shops which had the longest opening hours. They even named a TV series about a corner shop "Open All Hours".

The Hazards of Belief

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