Church and School

neonsofa · 07-12-2017 10:10PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

Being ridiculous and petty is standard form for the new non-religious it would seem ........ they're a funny ol' bunch if you ask me!

We're all born "non religious", how can one be "new non religious"? What does that even mean?

MadDog76 · 07-12-2017 10:11PM

bluewolf wrote: »

and insisting they are going to a church to be actively confirmed in a faith none of them believe in is a mockery to actual believers
i doubt anyone would do it to another religion, they'd have more respect

It's ironic that you would mention respect when it comes to religion!

07-12-2017 10:11PM

neonsofa wrote: »

We're all born "non religious", how can one be "new non religious"? What does that even mean?

I think he's trying to be edgy or something
'i totally reject your definitions, man'
it's the church's definition like

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-12-2017 10:12PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

Not entirely. For example I would support the establishment of said schools, but I wouldn't send my child to one.

The eradication of the type of school I would want for my child would be an attempt to infringe on my right as my child's parent to enrol them in a school which is congruent with my beliefs, values and philosophy. Some posters are indeed understandably only like myself interested in their own children's welfare and education, but you can't ignore the fact that there are many posters who are attempting to argue what they imagine is more beneficial to all children, from their perspective. They don't appear to appreciate or even want to acknowledge that other people do not share their perspective.

So 1 - your initial statement was erroneous (by your own words, this specific point is NOT about your kids); and 2 - no-one is trying to eradicate anything, so your initial point here is also erroneous.

MadDog76 wrote: »

Why should a religious organisation have to donate, free of charge, highly valuable land/buildings to the State for use by the children of tax payers?

Oh wait, they don't actually have to but they do anyway .......... your welcome!

Because they require state funding and trained personnel.

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 10:15PM

farmerwifelet wrote: »

If you send your children to a Catholic school then yes you should expect Catholic teaching to happen there and yes it involves trips to the local church. If the school doesn't have the resources to mind your children back at the school during said trips then either let the children go and observe or mind them yourself its that easy.

I think it is funny that people are shocked that Catholic schools have a Catholic ethos and that this might involve a trip to the church. If I sent my child to a Jewish school then i would presume a trip to a synagogue would probably happen at some stage.

Your point would be valid if everyone in the country had the choice to send their children to a non Catholic school. The sad reality is that the majority of people don't have that choice.

neonsofa · 07-12-2017 10:15PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think he's trying to be edgy or something
'i totally reject your definitions, man'
it's the church's definition like

Im genuinely baffled by all the terms being used cause none of them make sense. Catholic but doesnt believe in god. Non religious but identifies as Catholic. Indoctrination didn't work but yet being brought up with religious traditions resulted in them identifying as Catholic.

.....what?

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 10:16PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

I'm a Catholic by tradition, not by belief and I wish to continue that tradition with/for my children ............ you could say I "indentify" as being Catholic without having the Rosary Beads to hand.

Bouncy Castle Catholic

07-12-2017 10:18PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Im genuinely baffled by all the terms being used cause none of them make sense. Catholic but doesnt believe in god. Non religious but identifies as Catholic. Indoctrination didn't work but yet being brought up with religious traditions resulted in them identifying as Catholic.

.....what?

'it didn't affect me at all. i'm just forcing my children into it and lying on the census about it. not a bit.'

eviltwin · 07-12-2017 10:21PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

I specifically said I'm NOT religious ......... ???

And you aren't a Catholic either

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 10:23PM

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

OP, what would you do if you vegetarian, and the school was going on a visit to a dairy farm?

Tell the kids to not believe the stories about the benefits of drinking cows milk? Or occupy your kids some other way that day yourself?

That's a ridiculous comparison. You're comparing a one off hypothetical event with something that is a real, pervasive, continual issue for many, many families in schools across the country.

It would only be fair to make such a comparison if the school spent two and a half hours a week preaching about how great it is to eat meat and letting all of the vegetarian kids colour in during that time instead of learning something useful.

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-12-2017 10:24PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

Not exactly .......... I'm a non-religious Catholic!

You're gonna tell me you're a vegetarian who eats meat next...

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 10:25PM

Estrellita wrote: »

Says you. I sent my children to Catholic schools because our family is of the Catholic faith.

Oh, the system is obviously grand so, since you're happy with it.

Estrellita wrote: »

Why don't you send your children to the non religion specific schools instead of trying to force change within a school that religion specific parents want to send their children to?

Maybe they would if they could?

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 10:27PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

So 1 - your initial statement was erroneous (by your own words, this specific point is NOT about your kids); and

My initial statement wasn't erroneous? I said I would support that poster in their efforts if they wanted to provide a different type of education for their children -

One eyed Jack wrote: »

If you want a different type of education for your children, I would support your efforts

You asked me a completely different question.

2 - no-one is trying to eradicate anything, so your initial point here is also erroneous.

I think you're ignoring the substantial number of posters who have tried to argue that religion has no place in education.

end of the road · 07-12-2017 10:31PM

bluewolf wrote: »

and insisting they are going to a church to be actively confirmed in a faith none of them believe in is a mockery to actual believers
i doubt anyone would do it to another religion, they'd have more respect

i completely agree. these people are being disrespectful in my opinion. i have no issue what soever with those who are genuinely religious, i know a number of them and they are good people. but i do have a problem with alacart catholics, and those genuine religious people i know often tell me how they don't have time for them either.

MadDog76 wrote: »

No need to get upset, I'm sorry if my identifying as Catholic upsets your definition of Catholic but you'll just have to get over it.

i'm not upset over it, i think you are misguided.

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 10:31PM

splinter65 wrote: »

I don’t know what statistics you are basing your “most people” on . I think you probably mean “most people” you know personally.
The Census says 78% identify as Catholic.
That puts your “most people” in the bin.

There was a survey done by the church itself that I read about a while ago. I don't remember the figures or details (maybe someone else has the link?).

Anyway, they surveyed mass goers, who I'm sure we all agree make up a very small fraction of that 78%, and a massive percentage of those mass goers put down that they didn't even believe in God!

Princess Consuela Bananahammock · 07-12-2017 10:31PM

One eyed Jack wrote: »

My initial statement wasn't erroneous? I said I would support that poster in their efforts if they wanted to provide a different type of education for their children -

You asked me a completely different question.

No, becuase you don't support them.

I think you're ignoring the substantial number of posters who have tried to argue that religion has no place in education.

That's not what's being argued: poster would be fine with it having a place - provided siad place was optional and an alternative must be arranged for abstainers. No one wants to see religion eradicated from the curriculum, people just want to see it as an option funded by the church in question (be it catholic, protestant, muslim, pastafarian, whatever)

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 10:36PM

Atoms for Peace wrote: »

I went to a catholic school without becoming indoctrinated

Typical Irish attitude. Instead of striving for the best thing for everyone, we put up with cr*ppy systems (not just in education) because "sure it's not that bad" or "it never did me any harm".

waterfaerie · 07-12-2017 10:36PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

Why should a religious organisation have to donate, free of charge, highly valuable land/buildings to the State for use by the children of tax payers?

Oh wait, they don't actually have to but they do anyway .......... your welcome!

I wonder why?...

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 10:41PM

end of the road wrote: »

and then there are those of us who don't have children, who believe that an education system must be inclusive to all, regardless of religion. that 1 religion must not be favoured, or given a higher status then other religions.

The education system in Ireland is already inclusive to all, and no one religion is favoured or given higher status than other religions and none. The special position of the Catholic Church was already removed from the Irish Constitution via a referendum a few years back, well, back in 1972.

you cannot be catholic by tradition. you cannot identify as catholic when you don't believe in the religion. you are either a catholic or your not, and you aren't.

You can of course? And it's not your place to determine whether or not anyone who identifies themselves as Catholic, is or isn't Catholic.

MadDog76 · 07-12-2017 10:45PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think he's trying to be edgy or something
'i totally reject your definitions, man'
it's the church's definition like

An "edgy" traditionalist? That doesn't really work, does it??

If you really feel the need to put a label on it you could try a Traditional Catholic? An Honest Catholic maybe?? Or you just pick a title because it makes zero difference to me, I'm happy enough to just call myself Catholic being a traditional kinda fella an' all.

MadDog76 · 07-12-2017 10:47PM

neonsofa wrote: »

Im genuinely baffled by all the terms being used cause none of them make sense. Catholic but doesnt believe in god. Non religious but identifies as Catholic. Indoctrination didn't work but yet being brought up with religious traditions resulted in them identifying as Catholic.

.....what?

waterfaerie wrote: »

Bouncy Castle Catholic

bluewolf wrote: »

'it didn't affect me at all. i'm just forcing my children into it and lying on the census about it. not a bit.'

eviltwin wrote: »

And you aren't a Catholic either

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

You're gonna tell me you're a vegetarian who eats meat next...

Think I've upset more people than the Op has!!!

One eyed Jack · 07-12-2017 10:50PM

Princess Consuela Bananahammock wrote: »

No, becuase you don't support them.

I said I would support their efforts, that doesn't mean I would support the school itself by enrolling my child there, and that's why when you asked about supporting a State secular education system, I said not entirely. I support peoples efforts to have their children educated according to their philosophy, it doesn't follow that I would want my child educated in their philosophy.

That's not what's being argued: poster would be fine with it having a place - provided siad place was optional and an alternative must be arranged for abstainers. No one wants to see religion eradicated from the curriculum, people just want to see it as an option funded by the church in question (be it catholic, protestant, muslim, pastafarian, whatever)

I think you need to go back through this thread, and the many before it, because you appear to be missing a fair amount of posts.

07-12-2017 10:51PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

An "edgy" traditionalist? That doesn't really work, does it??

If you really feel the need to put a label on it you could try a Traditional Catholic? An Honest Catholic maybe?? Or you just pick a title because it makes zero difference to me, I'm happy enough to just call myself Catholic being a traditional kinda fella an' all.

i didn't call you a traditionalist and i don't think boasting on the internet about how you don't believe in god but enforce it on your kids purely for the craic is in any way 'traditional'. i'd say there are plenty of actual traditional people who would have a problem with this 'i'm so edgy mocking your religion by pretending i'm into it'.
the title does seem to make a non-zero difference to you since that's exactly what you're arguing though

evolving_doors · 07-12-2017 10:54PM

A different school for every faith and none.. All funded by the state.
Shur we should do the same for the hospitals too.
I think my kid needs a Catholic appendectomy!

One eyed Jack wrote: »

We could indeed, if that's what you'd like?

Eh! no you couldn't, that's nuts.

One eyed Jack wrote: »

I wouldn't particularly care one way or the other tbh. If you believe people should have that right then you go right ahead and campaign for it.

And therein lies the nub.
If the segregation doesn't bother the majority of some folk then there mustn't be a problem.

Candamir · 07-12-2017 10:55PM

MadDog76 wrote: »

I'm a Catholic by tradition, not by belief and I wish to continue that tradition with/for my children ............ you could say I "indentify" as being Catholic without having the Rosary Beads to hand.

Ok. So your ‘belief system’ is a bit bizarre, but I’d say it’s actually the norm rather than the exception if people were honest with themselves.
The thing is though, you can have all of that - bring your children up in a traditional catholic way with communion and confirmation etc without 95% of our schools doing the ‘traditional catholic’ bit for you. On the other hand, many people who aren’t catholic - those of minority faiths and none - have real difficulty with sending their children to faith schools, and having to make them feel ‘the odd one out’ because they’re ‘different’ to everybody else. When in fact they may not be - if most of the other kids are in the same boat as yours!
Wouldn’t it be better if the kids were just left to get in with it at school and we parents did the faith stuff at home?

waterfaerie wrote: »

There was a survey done by the church itself that I read about a while ago. I don't remember the figures or details (maybe someone else has the link?).

Anyway, they surveyed mass goers, who I'm sure we all agree make up a very small fraction of that 78%, and a massive percentage of those mass goers put down that they didn't even believe in God!

Jesus wept. I mean, if he does exist, he’d literally be weeping at that surely.

Allinall · 07-12-2017 10:56PM

bluewolf wrote: »

i didn't call you a traditionalist and i don't think boasting on the internet about how you don't believe in god but enforce it on your kids purely for the craic is in any way 'traditional'. i'd say there are plenty of actual traditional people who would have a problem with this 'i'm so edgy mocking your religion by pretending i'm into it'.
the title does seem to make a non-zero difference to you since that's exactly what you're arguing though

Enforcing on their kids?

Where did you get that from?

07-12-2017 10:58PM

Allinall wrote: »

Enforcing on their kids?

Where did you get that from?

here

MadDog76 wrote: »

Yet I'm passionate about my children being raised Catholic with all the traditions that go with being Catholic, ie. attending a Catholic school, celebrating Christmas, Communion, Confirmation and so on .

Allinall · 07-12-2017 10:58PM

bluewolf wrote: »

here

Enforcing?

07-12-2017 10:59PM

yes? making them make their confirmation and be indocrinated in it is basically enforcing?

Allinall · 07-12-2017 11:00PM

bluewolf wrote: »

yes? making them make their confirmation and be indocrinated in it is basically enforcing?

Where did they say they make their kids do anything?

Church and School

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