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Trying to get a software job as an engineering grad

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Comments

  • #32
    C14N
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    HowItsMade wrote: »
    Hi,

    Just curious but do you have work experience of any kind?

    I'm doing E&CE myself and in my final year now.

    It also seems like you've applied to a lot of places?

    One of the things i find most important during an interview is actually selling yourself to the interviewer.

    How can you expect to convince an interviewer to believe you really want a position with them if you're also actively looking elsewhere?

    Congrats on the 2.1 btw huge achievement. I can barely hold a 2.2 and have had summer repeats the last two years but with my work experience and own side projects i should be okay for a grad position next september - don't stress about it though they're not the be all and end all.

    I have work experience, just not in this specifically. You're right, I have applied for over 40 jobs at this point since September, nearly half of which never give any response whatsoever. Of the ones that do reply, most are rejections before going to any sort of interview. The previous years I only applied for jobs I really wanted, and the result was just a handful of interviews and walking away with nothing. Obviously I don't generally tell the interviewer I'm looking elsewhere (unless they ask specifically), but I do find it helps to keep options open, and most expect that they aren't the only one you're going for.

    Of course, I don't just come in out of nowhere. If I get a response on an application, I go and do research on the company and the job itself so I can be better prepared, and to make myself more excited for the job so I can be more enthusiastic during the interview. But that comes after I get a tug on the line, because doing it the other way around is a recipe for disappointment. The only application I really put my all into in terms of knowing the job, talking to recruiters, customising my CV precisely for the role, was Microsoft, who didn't even give me a phone screening this year.

    I tend not to believe that finding a passion and following it is a good idea. I believe it's more realistic to find a job and then become good enough at it that it becomes a passion (this was the philosophy of Cal Newport's book So Good They Can't Ignore You, or his presentations like this one.)


  • #33
    Pelvis
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,747 ✭✭✭Pelvis


    HowItsMade wrote: »
    Rather than looking for a general software engineering role in a company you only become interested in after seeing an advert for, it’d be more valuable for the company and also more fulfilling for the applicant if they had a genuine passion for the work done and it’s outcome.

    Quite hard to explain, but it’d be a lot easier in a interview to show your interest in a role where you know a lot more about the company rather than coming in and looking to apply a generic set of skills to any position when CS graduates would have a stronger skill set.

    To sum up find something you’ve a genuine interest and passion for and show how and why you’re right for the job.

    Precision vs. Accuracy kind of situation.

    That sounds very idealistic, and doable if you're happy enough in your current job but looking for that dream job and in no rush. But it's just not a practical approach in pretty much any other case to be focusing on one vacant role at a time.


  • #34
    server down
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,611 ✭✭✭server down


    Pelvis wrote: »
    That sounds very idealistic, and doable if you're happy enough in your current job but looking for that dream job and in no rush. But it's just not a practical approach in pretty much any other case to be focusing on one vacant role at a time.

    Also what would be the dream job anyway for a grad. It doesn’t look like Facebook and Google hire grads.


  • #35
    C14N
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    server down wrote: »
    Also what would be the dream job anyway for a grad. It doesn’t look like Facebook and Google hire grads.

    I think they hire some (I did apply for one with Google) but they are extremely selective and even then (assuming you work in the Dublin office), I don't think it would be as great as people might expect, because their Irish bases are not primarily focused on engineering and development, so you would likely not be working on any major projects afaik.


  • #36
    HowItsMade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭HowItsMade


    C14N wrote: »
    I have work experience, just not in this specifically. You're right, I have applied for over 40 jobs at this point since September, nearly half of which never give any response whatsoever. Of the ones that do reply, most are rejections before going to any sort of interview. The previous years I only applied for jobs I really wanted, and the result was just a handful of interviews and walking away with nothing. Obviously I don't generally tell the interviewer I'm looking elsewhere (unless they ask specifically), but I do find it helps to keep options open, and most expect that they aren't the only one you're going for.

    Of course, I don't just come in out of nowhere. If I get a response on an application, I go and do research on the company and the job itself so I can be better prepared, and to make myself more excited for the job so I can be more enthusiastic during the interview. But that comes after I get a tug on the line, because doing it the other way around is a recipe for disappointment. The only application I really put my all into in terms of knowing the job, talking to recruiters, customising my CV precisely for the role, was Microsoft, who didn't even give me a phone screening this year.

    I tend not to believe that finding a passion and following it is a good idea. I believe it's more realistic to find a job and then become good enough at it that it becomes a passion (this was the philosophy of Cal Newport's book So Good They Can't Ignore You, or his presentations like this one.)

    Yeah the range of jobs you had applied for is what struck out to me. SIG being a trading firm, Accenture being consultancy and with the various others it'd be hard to find a matching skillset.

    Had a look at the title of that book there and it's title could be an indication to where you're going wrong So Good They Can't Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love

    After 6 years at ECE do your strongest skills lie in software engineering?

    Quite puzzled as to where you're getting unlucky though especially being in final year myself it's a situation i could find myself in. However my working experience and internship with college have given me a strong grounding.

    I had a final round interview with Accenture this week.

    If you'd like you could shoot me a pm and we could discuss what's on our CV's that may or may not have stood out.

    As well, with having the postgrad like you mentioned you could be better off aiming for entry level roles.

    The following book is also a decent aid for technical interviews.


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  • #37
    C14N
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,656 ✭✭✭C14N


    HowItsMade wrote: »
    Yeah the range of jobs you had applied for is what struck out to me. SIG being a trading firm, Accenture being consultancy and with the various others it'd be hard to find a matching skillset.

    I think you have the wrong idea. SIG is a trading firm, but the majority of their staff are software engineers, and that's the job I was applying for. The job itself was to be writing code in C#. Similarly, Accenture seems consider themselves a "technology" firm more so than a consulting firm (or at least that's how they described themselves to me), and the job I'm being interviewed for is a technology graduate role. It was described on the phone as having several different streams that you can choose to pursue, but one of them is just straight software development, which is the one I'm hoping to be offered (if any). Similarly, the rest of the companies might seem like an eclectic selection, but the roles were some form software development in almost every case.
    HowItsMade wrote: »
    Had a look at the title of that book there and it's title could be an indication to where you're going wrong So Good They Can't Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love

    After 6 years at ECE do your strongest skills lie in software engineering?

    Yes, that and maths. That's not to say I think I am incredible at it, but I'm a lot more confident in that area than I would be at anything else I've done in E&CE. If someone asked me to solve a technical question about control theory, for example, I would be pretty stumped, whereas I can make a decent attempt at most coding interview questions. But the point with the subtitle is more that you get into something at first and then get really great at it, which will then make you passionate for it, rather than trying too hard to go into the one thing you are already passionate about.
    HowItsMade wrote: »
    Quite puzzled as to where you're getting unlucky though especially being in final year myself it's a situation i could find myself in. However my working experience and internship with college have given me a strong grounding.

    I had a final round interview with Accenture this week.

    Yeah, I do feel that if you have more relevant experience it would help. I think honestly that most of the time it's just screwing up on the technical parts, particularly with background knowledge. I think a lot of the problem is simply that I've never been in a situation where, for several months, I go day in, day out working on this stuff. I learn it in college, but it's like 1 module of 6 at any given time and even though I might get it all great and get an A on the test, it then lies dormant for several months or years in my head. Like, a lot of it is not even solving coding problems. I'm usually fairly good at that. It's more likely to be other technical knowledge questions.

    For example, in the SIG interview I was asked if I had ever used multithreading, or smart pointers, or design patterns. I learned about the theory of multithreading, and learned about a few design patterns, but I had never used them and it had been about a year since I had really had to think about either of those things, and when I did learn them it was just the theory, I wasn't sitting down and actually spending a few days working with them. Similar situation with Demonware when I was asked a question about DNS. I learned the stuff, but it was in one lab a year ago, so even though I could go home and look at my notes from then and pick it all up straight away, that information just wasn't sitting there in my head.

    The one that finally did give me my first offer simply didn't have as many difficult questions in all honesty.
    HowItsMade wrote: »
    If you'd like you could shoot me a pm and we could discuss what's on our CV's that may or may not have stood out.

    As well, with having the postgrad like you mentioned you could be better off aiming for entry level roles.

    The following book is also a decent aid for technical interviews.

    Honestly, almost every role I have applied for has been some kind of entry-level or graduate role, although there was one that I still have an upcoming interview with that just advertised looking for "software engineers" at all levels. I have heard good things about that book, I might end up just buying it for all future interviews anyway.

    Yeah I might send it over to you and you could show me yours. Could be helpful for both of us. I'll do it tomorrow though because I need to hit the sack now.


  • #38
    rainbow_beard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭rainbow_beard


    C14N wrote: »
    So my question for anyone more experience is, which of these jobs would be better experience for regular old software development? I know neither of them are that exactly, but I'm inclined to believe that either one would still be helpful. I just want to be able to make some sort of informed decision here because I am still an outsider.


    It's hard to tell which would be better without more context but I'd imagine you won't have a problem transitioning to 'regular software development' either way.

    And congrats on the job offer! If you decide to take the testing role and you gain good experience writing automated tests you'll be much more valuable to your next employer. Just use it as a stepping stone, learn as much as you can and keep your CV up to date :)


  • #39
    TrustedApple
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭TrustedApple


    C14N

    Drop me a pm. It might not be software dev but another area that your degree might relate to


  • #40
    Elemonator
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,270 ✭✭✭Elemonator


    If you feel that it is your education, consider a postgrad.

    However you seem to have the qualifications. As well as education, interview technique and personality are important. Employers want to see you as personable. Do you find yourself freezing in interviews and acting possibly overly formal in fear of coming across as not serious?

    Before you leave any interview, always ask is there any issues with your application that concerns them.


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