Trying to get a software job as an engineering grad

C14N

I hope I'm in the right place to ask about this. So my situation is that I have recently graduated from UCD with a masters degree in Electronic and Computer Engineering. What I really want is to find a job in software. Unfortunately, that's starting to feel depressingly difficult.

I have been offered interviews with multiple companies for graduate-level positions. So far I have done interviews with SAP, Accenture, Demonware, Arista, Phorest, and Susquehanna International Group. Last year before graduating I also had interviews with Microsoft, Bloomberg, and Workday (none of whom gave me an interview this year when I re-applied). In any of the ones that gave me a technical test, I did fine in that and ended up with a face-to-face interview. But every single time, I get turned down. Whenever I get feedback they tell me my interview technique is fine but I just don't have the technical abilities they want.

It's starting to become extremely demotivating and I'm beginning to feel like I spent 6 years working my arse off to get a degree that is seemingly no help in getting a job that I want. Coming in, I was led to believe people from this degree went into this kind of stuff regularly. The companies and alumni listed in prospectus made me feel sure I wouldn't have too hard a time, but I absolutely am. It feels bad enough that I didn't have a job coming out of college, but it's now 2 months later and I still feel no closer to even getting one.

If I could, I would absolutely turn back the clock and have studied computer science instead, but I can't, and I don't know what to do. I'm reasonably smart, I got a 2:1 in my degree with all As in my final year. I usually don't even feel particularly lost in technical interviews, but there's always some question that I have to pass on because it's about something I hadn't heard of before. I've been trying to learn more about programming languages and practicing the kind of problems you get in whiteboard questions but evidently that's not enough. Is there anything I can do? I never thought I would leave college feeling unemployable. Or at least does anyone know anywhere I can turn to to get help with something like this?

pauliebdub

That's a lot of interviews, they clearly see something good on your CV so I wouldn't worry about not having the right qualifications. Maybe you need to brush up on your interview skills? Do you get feedback from your interviews?

TheChizler

I'd certainly say it's always worth brushing up on interview techniques, but at a guess I imagine companies would be hesitant to hire someone for a software role if they haven't done a mostly software degree or don't have working experience in software. I'd say your best bet is to try to get a job with a mixture of electrical/hardware and software to get you started and you can start accumulating programming experience.

Where I am I started as a general electronic engineer but it's mostly software/networking/testing and if I wanted to start pushing towards software it would be very doable.

C14N

pauliebdub wrote: »

That's a lot of interviews, they clearly see something good on your CV so I wouldn't worry about not having the right qualifications. Maybe you need to brush up on your interview skills? Do you get feedback from your interviews?

Mostly they say they have policies not to give individual feedback. Two or three have given vague feedback though, generally saying something like I interviewed well by my skills were "not aligned" closely enough with what they were looking for.

My parents are trying to put me in contact with an interview preparation agency, so I'll try that, but I don't expect it to make a huge difference, in all honesty, and I'm starting to fear it will be too late to make a difference anyway, since October is when most of these companies open up applications for graduate positions.

C14N

TheChizler wrote: »

I'd certainly say it's always worth brushing up on interview techniques, but at a guess I imagine companies would be hesitant to hire someone for a software role if they haven't done a mostly software degree or don't have working experience in software. I'd say your best bet is to try to get a job with a mixture of electrical/hardware and software to get you started and you can start accumulating programming experience.

Where I am I started as a general electronic engineer but it's mostly software/networking/testing and if I wanted to start pushing towards software it would be very doable.

I feel that is the case more and more lately, but it's a catch 22 for getting experience. I know if I got it that I would be able to learn it quickly, but nobody is offering. I have another interview with Xilinx on Wednesday which I think might be a bit like what you say, but if that doesn't work out then I don't know where else to even apply to. I only found out about this one because a classmate referred me for the job.

TheChizler

C14N wrote: »

I have another interview with Xilinx on Wednesday which I think might be a bit like what you say, but if that doesn't work out then I don't know where else to even apply to.

That would be great if you could get it! Don't know what role you're interviewing for but there's huge opportunity for getting experience in embedded software in their System on Chip products. Maybe do a bit of reading into them and ARM in general. Any chip maker really has roles for software engineers, Intel, Altera (now Intel), Qualcomm, that kind of thing.

BigAl81

I found doing the Oracle Java certificate a big help, you could look at that. That plus some basic SQL should get you over the line.

RedXIV

Hey CI4N,

I run a grad program in a relatively small multinational, we take in 2 a year usually. I'm not surprised you are finding it difficult, I got 60 applicants in 3 days the first year I did it. Now a third of the applications weren't weren't pursuing from the get go, but I interviewed loads and made sure to give real feedback (to the dismay of the HR team ) so people might real ideas on what they need to work on.

My biggest issue with candidates was the rather surprising lack of coding ability even from computer science courses. On a whiteboard I had people fail to be able to write up simple loops, mathematical operations or in some cases even conditional statements. I'd recommend knowing all of these very well and have done some research on common junior programming questions.

Another thing that I've found surprising is candidates lack of ability to demonstrate what they've done before in a diagram. This one is more of a communications issue but when you have so many candidates, you can be picky.

If you are interested, you can send on your CV and I can let you know what sort of questions it would drive me towards, but it's worth pointing out, that it's my opinion only.

C14N

TheChizler wrote: »

That would be great if you could get it! Don't know what role you're interviewing for but there's huge opportunity for getting experience in embedded software in their System on Chip products. Maybe do a bit of reading into them and ARM in general. Any chip maker really has roles for software engineers, Intel, Altera (now Intel), Qualcomm, that kind of thing.

The role is Software Design Engineer, so I think it does cover the kind of stuff you're talking about. Can the skills in this really be transferred to a general software development? They said it's mostly in C, which is fine because I do know some C.

I'm very hesitant to apply for Intel. I did an internship there as part of my course and it's my second biggest regret after not choosing computer science as a degree. It was 8 months of basic administration and just being an "IT guy" that I could have been doing when I was 15, not after 4 years of engineering, and even then the majority of the time I was idle. I have two classmates in there now who say their situation is similar. They've both been looking for new jobs themselves.

BigAl81 wrote: »

I found doing the Oracle Java certificate a big help, you could look at that. That plus some basic SQL should get you over the line.

That's an interesting idea. I know a little Java, but not as much as C++. An actual certification might be helpful. I do have some basic SQL already though. Is the curriculum to pass it straightforward enough?

C14N

RedXIV wrote: »

If you are interested, you can send on your CV and I can let you know what sort of questions it would drive me towards, but it's worth pointing out, that it's my opinion only.

Thanks for the help, it's good to hear from the HR side. I'll PM my CV now.

Triceratops Ballet

I've interviewed for a number of software roles too and one thing that always stands to candidates is a demonstrable interest in programming outside of their coursework, do you contribute to any open source projects? have you a github account? if not that's a good place to start.
Were you involved in the computer science society in college? If you were, include that on the cv, talk about the activities, projects etc you did.

You could also look into meetups, there are dozens of tech meetups in the city every week, all crawling with recruiters, you can pop along, learn something about a subject or company that interests you and hopefully make a few connections.

Also I wouldn't limit yourself to applying for roles titled "grad", we've hired a number of grads into junior roles when we weren't specifically looking for grads, they just came in and impressed and they were in!

TheChizler

C14N wrote: »

The role is Software Design Engineer, so I think it does cover the kind of stuff you're talking about. Can the skills in this really be transferred to a general software development? They said it's mostly in C, which is fine because I do know some C.

It might be the kind of thing I was on about, working directly with embedded systems, but it could be a pure software job, maybe designing some of their CAD systems which might be a big jump for a graduate, but if they've advertised it as a graduate role it should be ok. What kind of experience and skills was it looking for?

Ask specific questions about the project and try to work what you know and are good at into the interview, hopefully it works out.

C14N

Triceratops Ballet wrote: »

I've interviewed for a number of software roles too and one thing that always stands to candidates is a demonstrable interest in programming outside of their coursework, do you contribute to any open source projects? have you a github account? if not that's a good place to start.
Were you involved in the computer science society in college? If you were, include that on the cv, talk about the activities, projects etc you did.

You could also look into meetups, there are dozens of tech meetups in the city every week, all crawling with recruiters, you can pop along, learn something about a subject or company that interests you and hopefully make a few connections.

Also I wouldn't limit yourself to applying for roles titled "grad", we've hired a number of grads into junior roles when we weren't specifically looking for grads, they just came in and impressed and they were in!

No, I haven't done anything like that. I never really had time in college for societies or projects (at least not from third year on) and I always worked in summer. I do see the value in it though, especially in hindsight. I have a github account, but I really only used it for one class project. This stuff sounds like something I would really enjoy though. How can I find out about tech meetups? And do you have any advice on how to get involved with open source projects as a relative novice? I'll have plenty of time on my hands after my Xilinx interview, so it would be great to put it to something productive like that.

TheChizler wrote: »

It might be the kind of thing I was on about, working directly with embedded systems, but it could be a pure software job, maybe designing some of their CAD systems which might be a big jump for a graduate, but if they've advertised it as a graduate role it should be ok. What kind of experience and skills was it looking for?

Ask specific questions about the project and try to work what you know and are good at into the interview, hopefully it works out.

It asked for experience in C and C++, as well as with scripting in Perl and Python. Other stuff included experience with embedded processors and memory architectures. It specified that they wanted either 1-2 years experience, or a master's degree. I don't fully meet the requirements to the letter, however, I happen to know that there were two positions available with this job description and the other one has already been filled by another classmate of mine so I'm not too worried about not knowing the material.

RoisinMmm

Hey there! Wishing you good luck with all of your interviews. When did you do your Accenture one? And have you heard back from them about second round interviews yet?

Diziet

A couple of points to add to the great advice above.
The minimum requirements are all well and good, but if you can tick mot of the boxes in the job, then apply.
The interview is more than the technical test. And I agree, employers don't generally give feedback, you have to work it out for yourself, by being critical and analysis the interview straight after. Make some notes while it is still fresh in your mind.
This book is one I have used and recommended to lots of people, all of which found it excellent. It's a job search manual as well as an interview prep book. Buy it and read it, you won't be sorry (I don't have shares in it :-) )
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Answers-Tough-Interview-Questions/dp/074946352X

Good luck.

pumpkin4life

Few things:

1: With your maths background, take a look towards data science rather than software engineering. It pays more, you get to do a lot of coding, and its easier to branch into software engineering if you want to get into the design side. Python/R and MySQL to get you started.

Data science/quant roles/finance etc. If you're really struggling, look for a job that you can turn into a data science job. I can tell you from experience that the public sector is so hilariously incompetent when it comes to any kind of programming. Something like that possibly.

Get something, even if it has nothing to do with the degree/what you want and if you can, turn it into a coding job.

Some online certification will make you look more serious and convincing about it as well.

2: Don't beat yourself up. The economy is that terrible for new graduates right now. As for the tech/it scene, well if you float around the tech industry in Ireland, you'll find out that there are surprisingly few Irish people hired or even involved. It's mainly a multinational thing. Not that many Irish people are getting hired.

Also. D4 hire D4. If you're say, have a strong accent, you're going to have a harder time in interviews for example.

3: Look for anything obviously wrong, like you're not going into an interview smelling of poo or anything like that.

Interview tips and reading up on presentations can help too.

It's a headwreck, and its awful,

C14N

RoisinMmm wrote: »

Hey there! Wishing you good luck with all of your interviews. When did you do your Accenture one? And have you heard back from them about second round interviews yet?

I'm guessing you're waiting on hearing back too? I did mine last Friday. They said they had more interviews this week though so I don't expect to hear from them until next week at least but I would be surprised if it took longer than that. I think they said the second round interviews start on the 27th.

Diziet wrote: »

And I agree, employers don't generally give feedback, you have to work it out for yourself, by being critical and analysis the interview straight after. Make some notes while it is still fresh in your mind.
This book is one I have used and recommended to lots of people, all of which found it excellent. It's a job search manual as well as an interview prep book. Buy it and read it, you won't be sorry (I don't have shares in it :-) )
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Great-Answers-Tough-Interview-Questions/dp/074946352X

Good luck.

I actually have been taking some notes lately, specifically of questions that I struggle with so I can prepare better for the future. I'll get that book in my next Amazon order though, it's only a few quid.

pumpkin4life wrote: »

1: With your maths background, take a look towards data science rather than software engineering. It pays more, you get to do a lot of coding, and its easier to branch into software engineering if you want to get into the design side. Python/R and MySQL to get you started.

Data science/quant roles/finance etc. If you're really struggling, look for a job that you can turn into a data science job. I can tell you from experience that the public sector is so hilariously incompetent when it comes to any kind of programming. Something like that possibly.

Get something, even if it has nothing to do with the degree/what you want and if you can, turn it into a coding job.

Some online certification will make you look more serious and convincing about it as well.

2: Don't beat yourself up. The economy is that terrible for new graduates right now. As for the tech/it scene, well if you float around the tech industry in Ireland, you'll find out that there are surprisingly few Irish people hired or even involved. It's mainly a multinational thing. Not that many Irish people are getting hired.

Also. D4 hire D4. If you're say, have a strong accent, you're going to have a harder time in interviews for example.

I actually have been applying for a few roles like that. The Accenture position is in analytics and the Salesforce one was as a data scientist. Does that translate well into normal programming work though? Or is there a fairly strict divide between the two?

I understand what you're saying about the market for graduates now too, but at the same time it is difficult when you see most of your graduating class finding employment somewhere. Most even had jobs set up before they finished.

As for my accent, I have a fairly neutral Irish accent, nobody really can ever pick out where I'm from based on speech, although I probably wouldn't pass for D4 either, despite being fairly surrounded by it in UCD.

srsly78

Learn to use git. I pretty much just test for this in interviews now, if they know git they get the job - very simple. Instantly culls the entire field. Bonus points for being able to use vim. And yes universities are useless, they don't teach the things industry actually wants - so your degree/grade doesn't really matter.

C14N

srsly78 wrote: »

Learn to use git. I pretty much just test for this in interviews now, if they know git they get the job - very simple. Instantly culls the entire field. Bonus points for being able to use vim. And yes universities are useless, they don't teach the things industry actually wants - so your degree/grade doesn't really matter.

I'm surprised to hear that, I would have thought most people know how to use Git, we were taught how to use it in one of our computer science modules. I do have it on my CV that I can use it and have even been asked about it at one or two interviews. One technical test I did required Vim, but I had never used it before so I did not do too well on that one (also it was my first one so my coding was a bit rusty anyway). I do feel like Vim is something that is kind of specific to certain companies though. At the Xilinx interview they said they use Eclipse for most of their programming.

srsly78

Vim is a unix editor - if you can use it then you must have some basic unix proficiency (usually linux). For data science positions linux is essential. Not being exposed to vim in college means not being exposed to unix - which is worrying.

Everyone has git on their cv, but hardly anyone can use it. I just use it to test for basic competence in interview. Yeah I just want basic competence - the only way to learn the "advanced git" stuff is to participate in advanced projects. Can only get this experience by participating in OSS or industry.

Go learn python and you will get job easy. Git+linux etc will make this easier. My employer is advertising for a data scientist in north dublin, it will go to the first person to demonstrate basic skills with git+python+linux (and has relevant degree).

cintec

Hi C14N just saw you thread i'm a 4th year student and have just secured a graduate position with one of the companies you mentioned in your op.

Just a few things that might help.

You will need an object orientated programming language I would suggest Java as it is widely used and having done c# this year it doesn't take long to make the switch so if you interview for somewhere that does .net development they would know you can pick it up pretty fast if you already know Java.

I wasn't asked a lot about my college work they wanted to see what extra learning I was doing and what projects I had up on my github. If you can build a simple project as part of a tutorial or online course put it up on your github account and learn how to deploy it to the cloud using AWS, Azure or Heroku.

Go to meetups you can find ones on python or java https://www.meetup.com/

If you have a local coderdojo you can go to that and help teach kids to code it is a good way to cement the basics and something you can put on the cv or mention in interviews.

Lastly for white board interviews join hackerrank it is free and you can work through problems and code solutions in your language of choice with beginner questions, hints and a forum to get help.

Good luck with the job hunt.

C14N

srsly78 wrote: »

Vim is a unix editor - if you can use it then you must have some basic unix proficiency (usually linux). For data science positions linux is essential. Not being exposed to vim in college means not being exposed to unix - which is worrying.

Everyone has git on their cv, but hardly anyone can use it. I just use it to test for basic competence in interview. Yeah I just want basic competence - the only way to learn the "advanced git" stuff is to participate in advanced projects. Can only get this experience by participating in OSS or industry.

Go learn python and you will get job easy. Git+linux etc will make this easier. My employer is advertising for a data scientist in north dublin, it will go to the first person to demonstrate basic skills with git+python+linux (and has relevant degree).

Yeah, I can't speak for comp sci students but in engineering we certainly didn't get any Unix exposure at all. But Vim is available on all platforms so it's entirely possible for someone to know it without knowing Unix too. What kind of stuff are you looking for with Git to show that you know how to use it?

Thanks for the tip by the way, it's sometimes hard to know what learning to prioritise.

cintec wrote: »

Hi C14N just saw you thread i'm a 4th year student and have just secured a graduate position with one of the companies you mentioned in your op.

Just a few things that might help.

You will need an object orientated programming language I would suggest Java as it is widely used and having done c# this year it doesn't take long to make the switch so if you interview for somewhere that does .net development they would know you can pick it up pretty fast if you already know Java.

I wasn't asked a lot about my college work they wanted to see what extra learning I was doing and what projects I had up on my github. If you can build a simple project as part of a tutorial or online course put it up on your github account and learn how to deploy it to the cloud using AWS, Azure or Heroku.

Go to meetups you can find ones on python or java https://www.meetup.com/

If you have a local coderdojo you can go to that and help teach kids to code it is a good way to cement the basics and something you can put on the cv or mention in interviews.

Lastly for white board interviews join hackerrank it is free and you can work through problems and code solutions in your language of choice with beginner questions, hints and a forum to get help.

Good luck with the job hunt.

Interesting, I assume you were computer science rather than engineering? I was actually just planning on doing some basic Android app development which I know uses Java, which I figured would be a good way of teaching myself.

I see there is a big Python group on meetup. I'll try and get involved in it at their next monthly meeting, although I'd want to get a little practice with it myself first.

I actually have signed up for Hackerrank already, I used it a lot to practice white-board style problems (as well as Codility) and to get better at C++ and Java, although I'm still a lot better at these at home at a computer where I can test things than I am at a whiteboard where any mistake or omission looks clumsy and has to be re-written.

rainbow_beard

hey C14N,

First off don't beat yourself up about not having landed any of those roles yet. You might have been very close to getting a few of them and these things often come down to luck, timing and other things beyond your control like how grumpy/hungry the interviewer was. Also your first developer job out of college is almost certainly the hardest one to get, after this it will be a lot easier.

I come from an engineering background too but have been working as a developer for a while now. I can promise you that we are in high demand despite having no CS degree. There is some good advice above about knowing linux and git - this could set you apart from the other candidates. I don't think a particular programming language is all that important for graduate positions but if you wanted to try a new one I'd go with python over java (its just less verbose and nicer to work with). The main thing is to keep practicing by building things and solving problems - sites like topcoder, interview.io, hackerrank etc are all great for this. In the interview itself its fine if you don't know how to solve a problem but its important that you show the interviewers your thought process. A slightly cheesy but helpful example of how to do this from the lads at google can be found here

As mentioned above you really don't need to confine your search to graduate positions, an entry level position in a decent technology company is a much faster way of learning things anyway. If you want a second opinion on your CV just PM me but I'm guessing it's reasonably good or you wouldn't be getting to the in person interviews.

Good luck

C14N

rainbow_beard wrote: »

hey C14N,

First off don't beat yourself up about not having landed any of those roles yet. You might have been very close to getting a few of them and these things often come down to luck, timing and other things beyond your control like how grumpy/hungry the interviewer was. Also your first developer job out of college is almost certainly the hardest one to get, after this it will be a lot easier.

I come from an engineering background too but have been working as a developer for a while now. I can promise you that we are in high demand despite having no CS degree. There is some good advice above about knowing linux and git - this could set you apart from the other candidates. I don't think a particular programming language is all that important for graduate positions but if you wanted to try a new one I'd go with python over java (its just less verbose and nicer to work with). The main thing is to keep practicing by building things and solving problems - sites like topcoder, interview.io, hackerrank etc are all great for this. In the interview itself its fine if you don't know how to solve a problem but its important that you show the interviewers your thought process. A slightly cheesy but helpful example of how to do this from the lads at google can be found here

As mentioned above you really don't need to confine your search to graduate positions, an entry level position in a decent technology company is a much faster way of learning things anyway. If you want a second opinion on your CV just PM me but I'm guessing it's reasonably good or you wouldn't be getting to the in person interviews.

Good luck

I know I've been offline for a few days (I had some problems with a friend unrelated to job hunting that kind of put things to a halt), but thanks, I appreciate the advice. I actually have a friend doing a computer science degree who said he would be open to trying to work on some kind of project together, so maybe I'll see if I can do something like that. I've already kind of gotten started with Java though for an Android app, so I'm not sure if I should drop that and switch over to some kind of Python project for now. What kind of small projects could I work on with Python?

I've branched out a little bit into looking for things other than strict graduate positions. The Xilinx one I'm still in the process with was a "junior" role rather than a graduate one, and I have a phone interview next week with Toast Inc. for a position that was just advertised as "Software Developer" so that's good. I'll send you on my CV, I've gotten feedback from RedXIV but it never hurts to have another opinion

I also finally received that book that Diziet recommended in the post today so I'll be reading that over the weekend. I'm feeling a little more optimistic than I was before, at least I don't feel like I'm at the end of the tether just yet.

srsly78

For git you should go register yourself on github and get familiar with basic operations. Clone, add, commit, push and pull for starters. Don't worry about branches to start with.

Vim is open-source software - u can compile and run it on any platform. However it is often the default editor on unix platforms. People are encountering if more often on windows these days because it's used by default in git-bash. Thus the #1 question on stackoverflow: https://stackoverflow.blog/2017/05/23/stack-overflow-helping-one-million-developers-exit-vim/

Pick a problem that is interesting and relevant to YOU (otherwise you will get bored) - and choose whatever language you like to solve it. Refer to book/internet when you get stuck. Solving the problem is what's important, don't get bogged down in technical minutiae.

TallGlass

C14N, without sounding odd, but with a background in Electronic and Computer Engineering, why are you looking at software? To me, your degree is elsewhere on the OSI model. You should be designing the hardware that the software is running on. Have you look at that side of things at all.

But just to add as others have said, don't get down about it. IT is a strange industry, you go in as one thing and come out another. Basically, on paper I would be a Network Engineer, in reality I am in an area I would never have considered myself good or having an ability at, software development/coding.

rainbow_beard

hey C14N,

If you've started working on an android project then thats great, I would stick to that and see it through - you will learn loads and figure out if thats something you'd like to work on in the future. Software engineering is such a massive field and there are so many different technologies that its easy to get distracted hopping from one to the next. Build a working android app (even if its just a todo list) and you'll be doing great.

C14N

TallGlass wrote: »

C14N, without sounding odd, but with a background in Electronic and Computer Engineering, why are you looking at software? To me, your degree is elsewhere on the OSI model. You should be designing the hardware that the software is running on. Have you look at that side of things at all.

But just to add as others have said, don't get down about it. IT is a strange industry, you go in as one thing and come out another. Basically, on paper I would be a Network Engineer, in reality I am in an area I would never have considered myself good or having an ability at, software development/coding.

Quite frankly, I don't enjoy working on hardware. It's not something that interests me very much and getting through stuff like circuits, signal processing and RF design in college was always a bit of a chore, whereas classes that involved writing C++ or Java were things I really enjoyed working on.


I have an open question to ask. I have finally been offered a job. It's a 6 month contract in software testing. The company in question said that this testing would involve a lot of writing in Java and Swift though as I will need to create apps that will test their app, as well as Python. I thought this sounded interesting, because my idea of testing before was that you would just be sort of manually playing with the program trying to make it break and then going through it with a debugger afterwards.

I think this offer might also be useful for pressuring Xilinx into making an offer, as they've been taking their time so far despite saying they were very happy with the interview and with my reference after speaking to my referee, but they were still holding out and have told me repeatedly to tell them if I get any other offers. The Xilinx job is a combination of writing embedded software in C, as well as programs in C++ and tests in Python.

So my question for anyone more experience is, which of these jobs would be better experience for regular old software development? I know neither of them are that exactly, but I'm inclined to believe that either one would still be helpful. I just want to be able to make some sort of informed decision here because I am still an outsider.

HowItsMade

Hi,

Just curious but do you have work experience of any kind?

I'm doing E&CE myself and in my final year now.

It also seems like you've applied to a lot of places?

One of the things i find most important during an interview is actually selling yourself to the interviewer.

How can you expect to convince an interviewer to believe you really want a position with them if you're also actively looking elsewhere?

Congrats on the 2.1 btw huge achievement. I can barely hold a 2.2 and have had summer repeats the last two years but with my work experience and own side projects i should be okay for a grad position next september - don't stress about it though they're not the be all and end all.

Pelvis

HowItsMade wrote: »

How can you expect to convince an interviewer to believe you really want a position with them if you're also actively looking elsewhere

What alternative are you proposing here?

Applying for jobs is a numbers game, the more you apply for the more interviews you get, the more interviews you do the greater the chance of getting a job.

HowItsMade

Pelvis wrote: »

What alternative are you proposing here?

Applying for jobs is a numbers game, the more you apply for the more interviews you get, the more interviews you do the greater the chance of getting a job.

Rather than looking for a general software engineering role in a company you only become interested in after seeing an advert for, it’d be more valuable for the company and also more fulfilling for the applicant if they had a genuine passion for the work done and it’s outcome.

Quite hard to explain, but it’d be a lot easier in a interview to show your interest in a role where you know a lot more about the company rather than coming in and looking to apply a generic set of skills to any position when CS graduates would have a stronger skill set.

To sum up find something you’ve a genuine interest and passion for and show how and why you’re right for the job.

Precision vs. Accuracy kind of situation.

C14N

HowItsMade wrote: »

Hi,

Just curious but do you have work experience of any kind?

I'm doing E&CE myself and in my final year now.

It also seems like you've applied to a lot of places?

One of the things i find most important during an interview is actually selling yourself to the interviewer.

How can you expect to convince an interviewer to believe you really want a position with them if you're also actively looking elsewhere?

Congrats on the 2.1 btw huge achievement. I can barely hold a 2.2 and have had summer repeats the last two years but with my work experience and own side projects i should be okay for a grad position next september - don't stress about it though they're not the be all and end all.

I have work experience, just not in this specifically. You're right, I have applied for over 40 jobs at this point since September, nearly half of which never give any response whatsoever. Of the ones that do reply, most are rejections before going to any sort of interview. The previous years I only applied for jobs I really wanted, and the result was just a handful of interviews and walking away with nothing. Obviously I don't generally tell the interviewer I'm looking elsewhere (unless they ask specifically), but I do find it helps to keep options open, and most expect that they aren't the only one you're going for.

Of course, I don't just come in out of nowhere. If I get a response on an application, I go and do research on the company and the job itself so I can be better prepared, and to make myself more excited for the job so I can be more enthusiastic during the interview. But that comes after I get a tug on the line, because doing it the other way around is a recipe for disappointment. The only application I really put my all into in terms of knowing the job, talking to recruiters, customising my CV precisely for the role, was Microsoft, who didn't even give me a phone screening this year.

I tend not to believe that finding a passion and following it is a good idea. I believe it's more realistic to find a job and then become good enough at it that it becomes a passion (this was the philosophy of Cal Newport's book So Good They Can't Ignore You, or his presentations like this one.)

Pelvis

HowItsMade wrote: »

Rather than looking for a general software engineering role in a company you only become interested in after seeing an advert for, it’d be more valuable for the company and also more fulfilling for the applicant if they had a genuine passion for the work done and it’s outcome.

Quite hard to explain, but it’d be a lot easier in a interview to show your interest in a role where you know a lot more about the company rather than coming in and looking to apply a generic set of skills to any position when CS graduates would have a stronger skill set.

To sum up find something you’ve a genuine interest and passion for and show how and why you’re right for the job.

Precision vs. Accuracy kind of situation.

That sounds very idealistic, and doable if you're happy enough in your current job but looking for that dream job and in no rush. But it's just not a practical approach in pretty much any other case to be focusing on one vacant role at a time.

server down

Pelvis wrote: »

That sounds very idealistic, and doable if you're happy enough in your current job but looking for that dream job and in no rush. But it's just not a practical approach in pretty much any other case to be focusing on one vacant role at a time.

Also what would be the dream job anyway for a grad. It doesn’t look like Facebook and Google hire grads.

C14N

server down wrote: »

Also what would be the dream job anyway for a grad. It doesn’t look like Facebook and Google hire grads.

I think they hire some (I did apply for one with Google) but they are extremely selective and even then (assuming you work in the Dublin office), I don't think it would be as great as people might expect, because their Irish bases are not primarily focused on engineering and development, so you would likely not be working on any major projects afaik.

HowItsMade

C14N wrote: »

I have work experience, just not in this specifically. You're right, I have applied for over 40 jobs at this point since September, nearly half of which never give any response whatsoever. Of the ones that do reply, most are rejections before going to any sort of interview. The previous years I only applied for jobs I really wanted, and the result was just a handful of interviews and walking away with nothing. Obviously I don't generally tell the interviewer I'm looking elsewhere (unless they ask specifically), but I do find it helps to keep options open, and most expect that they aren't the only one you're going for.

Of course, I don't just come in out of nowhere. If I get a response on an application, I go and do research on the company and the job itself so I can be better prepared, and to make myself more excited for the job so I can be more enthusiastic during the interview. But that comes after I get a tug on the line, because doing it the other way around is a recipe for disappointment. The only application I really put my all into in terms of knowing the job, talking to recruiters, customising my CV precisely for the role, was Microsoft, who didn't even give me a phone screening this year.

I tend not to believe that finding a passion and following it is a good idea. I believe it's more realistic to find a job and then become good enough at it that it becomes a passion (this was the philosophy of Cal Newport's book So Good They Can't Ignore You, or his presentations like this one.)

Yeah the range of jobs you had applied for is what struck out to me. SIG being a trading firm, Accenture being consultancy and with the various others it'd be hard to find a matching skillset.

Had a look at the title of that book there and it's title could be an indication to where you're going wrong So Good They Can't Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love

After 6 years at ECE do your strongest skills lie in software engineering?

Quite puzzled as to where you're getting unlucky though especially being in final year myself it's a situation i could find myself in. However my working experience and internship with college have given me a strong grounding.

I had a final round interview with Accenture this week.

If you'd like you could shoot me a pm and we could discuss what's on our CV's that may or may not have stood out.

As well, with having the postgrad like you mentioned you could be better off aiming for entry level roles.

The following book is also a decent aid for technical interviews.

C14N

HowItsMade wrote: »

Yeah the range of jobs you had applied for is what struck out to me. SIG being a trading firm, Accenture being consultancy and with the various others it'd be hard to find a matching skillset.

I think you have the wrong idea. SIG is a trading firm, but the majority of their staff are software engineers, and that's the job I was applying for. The job itself was to be writing code in C#. Similarly, Accenture seems consider themselves a "technology" firm more so than a consulting firm (or at least that's how they described themselves to me), and the job I'm being interviewed for is a technology graduate role. It was described on the phone as having several different streams that you can choose to pursue, but one of them is just straight software development, which is the one I'm hoping to be offered (if any). Similarly, the rest of the companies might seem like an eclectic selection, but the roles were some form software development in almost every case.

HowItsMade wrote: »

Had a look at the title of that book there and it's title could be an indication to where you're going wrong So Good They Can't Ignore You: Why Skills Trump Passion in the Quest for Work You Love

After 6 years at ECE do your strongest skills lie in software engineering?

Yes, that and maths. That's not to say I think I am incredible at it, but I'm a lot more confident in that area than I would be at anything else I've done in E&CE. If someone asked me to solve a technical question about control theory, for example, I would be pretty stumped, whereas I can make a decent attempt at most coding interview questions. But the point with the subtitle is more that you get into something at first and then get really great at it, which will then make you passionate for it, rather than trying too hard to go into the one thing you are already passionate about.

HowItsMade wrote: »

Quite puzzled as to where you're getting unlucky though especially being in final year myself it's a situation i could find myself in. However my working experience and internship with college have given me a strong grounding.

I had a final round interview with Accenture this week.

Yeah, I do feel that if you have more relevant experience it would help. I think honestly that most of the time it's just screwing up on the technical parts, particularly with background knowledge. I think a lot of the problem is simply that I've never been in a situation where, for several months, I go day in, day out working on this stuff. I learn it in college, but it's like 1 module of 6 at any given time and even though I might get it all great and get an A on the test, it then lies dormant for several months or years in my head. Like, a lot of it is not even solving coding problems. I'm usually fairly good at that. It's more likely to be other technical knowledge questions.

For example, in the SIG interview I was asked if I had ever used multithreading, or smart pointers, or design patterns. I learned about the theory of multithreading, and learned about a few design patterns, but I had never used them and it had been about a year since I had really had to think about either of those things, and when I did learn them it was just the theory, I wasn't sitting down and actually spending a few days working with them. Similar situation with Demonware when I was asked a question about DNS. I learned the stuff, but it was in one lab a year ago, so even though I could go home and look at my notes from then and pick it all up straight away, that information just wasn't sitting there in my head.

The one that finally did give me my first offer simply didn't have as many difficult questions in all honesty.

HowItsMade wrote: »

If you'd like you could shoot me a pm and we could discuss what's on our CV's that may or may not have stood out.

As well, with having the postgrad like you mentioned you could be better off aiming for entry level roles.

The following book is also a decent aid for technical interviews.

Honestly, almost every role I have applied for has been some kind of entry-level or graduate role, although there was one that I still have an upcoming interview with that just advertised looking for "software engineers" at all levels. I have heard good things about that book, I might end up just buying it for all future interviews anyway.

Yeah I might send it over to you and you could show me yours. Could be helpful for both of us. I'll do it tomorrow though because I need to hit the sack now.

rainbow_beard

C14N wrote: »

So my question for anyone more experience is, which of these jobs would be better experience for regular old software development? I know neither of them are that exactly, but I'm inclined to believe that either one would still be helpful. I just want to be able to make some sort of informed decision here because I am still an outsider.

It's hard to tell which would be better without more context but I'd imagine you won't have a problem transitioning to 'regular software development' either way.

And congrats on the job offer! If you decide to take the testing role and you gain good experience writing automated tests you'll be much more valuable to your next employer. Just use it as a stepping stone, learn as much as you can and keep your CV up to date

TrustedApple

C14N

Drop me a pm. It might not be software dev but another area that your degree might relate to

Elemonator

If you feel that it is your education, consider a postgrad.

However you seem to have the qualifications. As well as education, interview technique and personality are important. Employers want to see you as personable. Do you find yourself freezing in interviews and acting possibly overly formal in fear of coming across as not serious?

Before you leave any interview, always ask is there any issues with your application that concerns them.