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Are too many teachers women?

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    #32
    Speedwell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    BrokenArrows wrote: »
    Google search results are not a great comparison. Female teachers make the headlines because its a much better headline. 23yr old female teacher ....

    That's actually my point. When a female teacher does this, it's news. When a male teacher does it, it's business as usual. Despite this, male teachers still vastly outnumber female teachers in the search results.


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    #33
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Hector Savage wrote: »
    Men/Women are actually attracted to different areas and interests, unfortunately you can't mention this fact in society today - just look at the James Damore fiasco.
    Nonsense. Historically many men went into teaching careers. We need to look at why this has changed.


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    #34
    Cina
    Registered Users Posts: 2,387 ✭✭✭Cina


    super_furry wrote: »
    I think teacher is an unattractive profession because the pay is so poor. It requires an education level and commitment that would bring you a much higher pay-packet in other industries and even when you qualify as a teacher, it can’t take years to eventually get a full-time job.

    It’s not surprising that there’s only six people in training to be physics teachers. Someone with a degree in physics could walk into a job that would pay multiples of what teaching would.

    At the risk of sounding sexist, I’m just not sure it’s a job that appeals to highly qualified men as much as it does women. I could be wrong and totally off base but I believe that the only way to get more men teaching would be to drastically improve the wages.

    I know some teachers, and I think your definition of poor pay really depends on where they live. Teachers in rural Ireland are actually on very good pay and get lots of holidays for it. A few I know go away for a month or two every year and have basically travelled the world whilst retaining their job. A teacher's salary goes a very long way outside of the main cities.

    That said, a teacher in Dublin and to a lesser extent Cork and Galway is probably not paid enough for the living expenses there, though again, I know plenty of people getting by in the cities on less money than teachers.

    Maybe it should really be structured pay based on cost of living of where they live, but that would be difficult to do without uproar.


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    #35
    JMNolan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    Speedwell wrote: »
    That's actually my point. When a female teacher does this, it's news. When a male teacher does it, it's business as usual. Despite this, male teachers still vastly outnumber female teachers in the search results.

    What are you trying to imply?


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    #36
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,714 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    brevity wrote:
    The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

    Always wanted to be a primary teacher but the constant abuse scandals of the nineties developed, it seemed to me, a culture of distrust of men working with kids and coupled with the amount of my secondary teachers who had breakdowns meant I didn't even consider it as an option. Still wish I had though.
    I don't really remember anyone putting emphasis on pay when we were deciding on what to do after school, the actual existence or not of a potential job seemed the bigger issue.


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    #37
    Speedwell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    JMNolan wrote: »
    What are you trying to imply?

    That if people are going to argue from the evidence that "women are just more interested in teaching", then they would also be obliged to argue "men are just more interested in assaulting students".


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    #38
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    kylith wrote: »
    Nonsense. Historically many men went into teaching careers. We need to look at why this has changed.

    Money would my guess. The median salary for a secondary school teacher is €31,387 https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Secondary_School_Teacher/Salary

    There are just too many better options pay-wise for those with the kind of education it takes to become a teacher.


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    #39
    cantdecide
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    "Today in middle class intact families, when children are born, women have three options: work full-time; children full-time; some combination of both. Men also have “three options”: Work full-time; work full-time; work full-time", according to Dr. Warren Farrell.

    It's a societal problem - there are many wives working weird hours and under the conditions because that's the only thing that will work for them. Where are these ladies' partners and husbands? Probably still bringing home the bacon with little option to do much else for the rest of their days.

    At the same time, I do know several single female teachers my age and they deal with all the issues mentioned here and their lives are very tough. It's single people that are really losing in all of these cases as there is an assumption of family income which is something we tend to turn a blind eye to.


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    #40
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Speedwell wrote: »
    That if people are going to argue from the evidence that "women are just more interested in teaching", then they would also be obliged to argue "men are just more interested in assaulting students".

    Come again?


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    #41
    Balmed Out
    Registered Users Posts: 4,714 ✭✭✭Balmed Out


    I left school in 97 and don't think teaching was viewed as poorly paid at the time but I knew no males but plenty of females that went into it. I really think the non stop sexual abuse scandals put a lot of men off.


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    #42
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    super_furry wrote: »
    Money would my guess. The median salary for a secondary school teacher is €31,387 https://www.payscale.com/research/IE/Job=Secondary_School_Teacher/Salary

    There are just too many better options pay-wise for those with the kind of education it takes to become a teacher.

    If that were the case we could expect to see an undersupply of both men and women in teaching, but there seems to only be a dearth of men in the profession.


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    #43
    Ficheall
    Registered Users Posts: 9,027 ✭✭✭Ficheall


    Not that I disagree in general with the argument, but maybe an Educate Together school is even more likely to attract female teachers than an ordinary school?
    They may not all be similar, of course, but someone was telling me of one Educate Together school they were teaching in where every other week was an "It's okay to be gay/trans/etc" week (I'm not suggesting that it isn't, mind) to the detriment of covering actual subjects, and that students' "individuality" is encouraged to such degree that they had five or six students who were "undecided" or had decided to change their gender in a class of forty students. Perhaps male teachers would be less likely to put up with such a level of horse manure?


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    #44
    PeterParker957
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,177 ✭✭✭PeterParker957


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.

    You have zero chance of that improving in the current climate!

    And yes - there are too many women teachers, there should be more men and yes the Government should do more to encourage boys to go into teaching.


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    #45
    JMNolan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    Speedwell wrote: »
    That if people are going to argue from the evidence that "women are just more interested in teaching", then they would also be obliged to argue "men are just more interested in assaulting students".

    Why....?


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    #46
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    kylith wrote: »
    If that were the case we could expect to see an undersupply of both men and women in teaching, but there seems to only be a dearth of men in the profession.

    Again at the risk of sounding sexist, I think that there are other aspects outside of wages that make it more attractive to women – the hours mainly and the fact that they’re very family friendly when it comes to raising a family.


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    #47
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,331 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    super_furry wrote:
    I think teacher is an unattractive profession because the pay is so poor. It requires an education level and commitment that would bring you a much higher pay-packet in other industries and even when you qualify as a teacher, it can’t take years to eventually get a full-time job.


    How is an unattractive profession due to pay any relevant to why it attracts women but not men?


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    #48
    Speedwell
    Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭Speedwell


    JMNolan wrote: »
    Why....?

    Don't be obtuse. There are clearly societal and cultural pressures that discourage men from seeking the kind of education needed to be a teacher. You can't just point at "more women become teachers" as evidence that women are just more suited to become teachers. There is a reason for it, and that reason isn't biology. Anyone can lie with statistics, and everyone does. The thing you must look at is psychology.


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    #49
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,322 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    How is an unattractive profession due to pay any relevant to why it attracts women but not men?

    Because in society, although it's changing, men are still viewed as the main bread-winners and women viewed as the nurturers who raise children. That's why they're more likely to go into a profession that fits in time-wise with having children at home.


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    #50
    ahnowbrowncow
    Registered Users Posts: 2,565 ✭✭✭ahnowbrowncow


    brevity wrote: »
    The question I would ask is why don't more men want to be teachers?

    No no no, you're not allowed ask sensible questions like that.

    You're supposed to shout about how you've been seemingly discriminated against and then shout for gender quotas.


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    #51
    mariaalice
    Registered Users Posts: 12,407 ✭✭✭✭mariaalice


    kylith wrote: »
    Nonsense. Historically many men went into teaching careers. We need to look at why this has changed.

    There are far more opportunities for professional employment in todays society, sometime the answer is really as simple as that.

    Men went in to teaching because it gave them access to a professional job with out having to have connections most other profession you had to have the right connection and come from a certain class the civil service was the other option.

    Up until comparatively recently those with ability but not money went in to the civil service and went to UCD at night to become teachers it was extremity common.

    When the British civil service started having exams for entry instead of being appointed because of connections it was said it was no longer a profession for respectable people because it could become open to the lower classes.


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    #52
    JMNolan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    Speedwell wrote: »
    Don't be obtuse. There are clearly societal and cultural pressures that discourage men from seeking the kind of education needed to be a teacher. You can't just point at "more women become teachers" as evidence that women are just more suited to become teachers. There is a reason for it, and that reason isn't biology. Anyone can lie with statistics, and everyone does. The thing you must look at is psychology.

    I never "pointed" at that, wtf are you waffling on about?


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    #53
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    How is an unattractive profession due to pay any relevant to why it attracts women but not men?

    Let me fish them out but this has been talked about before.

    Women generally opt for professions that give them better quality if life.
    Less hours and longer holidays good maternity.

    Statistically men work longer hours, take less holidays, commit suicide more, are not happy but earn more.


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    #54
    cantdecide
    Registered Users Posts: 11,465 ✭✭✭✭cantdecide


    ShowMeTheCash wrote: »
    Let me fish them out but this has been talked about before.

    Women generally opt for professions that give them better quality if life.
    Less hours and longer holidays good maternity.

    Statistically men work longer hours, take less holidays, commit suicide more, are not happy but earn more.

    And have less control over the money they earn.


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    #55
    Shemale
    Registered Users Posts: 3,376 ✭✭✭Shemale


    Speedwell wrote: »
    I invite you to do a Google search of "teacher charged" and "teacher convicted" (not even including "coach") and compare the ratio of men to women in the search results, despite the fact that women far outnumber men as teachers.

    Do you think that male students are equally likely to report to police as female students?


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    #56
    Gravelly
    Registered Users Posts: 4,119 ✭✭✭Gravelly


    It's funny how the conversation on gender balance in the workplace differs so profoundly when people discuss male or female.
    • Why aren't there more female CEO's, engineers, computer programmers? Because we have not made these positions available or attractive to females, we must change the way we teach and work to make these jobs available to women. Companies with female CEO's perform on average 189% better (see the study carried out by my feminist empowerment think tank), female engineers are better at problem solving, female programmers make better software etc. etc. We must change the way evil men have set up society to keep the wimmin down - smash the patriarchy!
      vs.

    • Why aren't there more male teachers? Ah shure what do you want, priests is it? Isn't there loads of them, and they only want the high paying jobs, and shure they'd only abuse the pupils, and feck 'em anyway.


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    #57
    Nekarsulm
    Registered Users Posts: 11,199 ✭✭✭✭Nekarsulm


    Also, in the "good old days" gone by, a male teacher in a national school would always become Principal.
    That no longer applies.


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    #58
    JMNolan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭JMNolan


    I toyed with the idea of teaching a few years ago, I've a masters in maths so would be able but I thought "one false allegation and my life is ruined", not worth it.


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    #59
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,530 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    I think we should force women to be male teachers


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    #60
    ShowMeTheCash
    Registered Users Posts: 2,651 ✭✭✭ShowMeTheCash


    Speedwell wrote: »
    Don't be obtuse. There are clearly societal and cultural pressures that discourage men from seeking the kind of education needed to be a teacher. You can't just point at "more women become teachers" as evidence that women are just more suited to become teachers. There is a reason for it, and that reason isn't biology. Anyone can lie with statistics, and everyone does. The thing you must look at is psychology.


    Ah I get it now ;)

    No one said suited, we said more women choose to teach, because they want too.

    I heard it be said that women are not choosing the professions feminists want them to choose. Reason more and more women do not identify as feminist anymore.

    So you completely dismiss biology and go 100% for psychology.

    When it comes to labor intensive jobs and physically dangerous jobs is it biology or psychology to why men make up 99% of this number?


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    #61
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 25,611 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kylith wrote: »
    If that were the case we could expect to see an undersupply of both men and women in teaching, but there seems to only be a dearth of men in the profession.
    Is it not the case that women still tend to "marry up" a lot more than men?
    From my own experiences I know that men tend to look more at money than work/life balance even when single and kids are nowhere on the horizon.
    Personally a short time working has me looking forward to 3 months summer holidays once I've enough put aside for a year and a half of a mortgage. :P


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