storage options?

brendanwalsh · 17-11-2017 4:24pm #1

is it possible to store your coins on a piece of paper or on a normal usb or do u recommend getting a trezor wallet / ledger nano?

Shauny2010 · 17-11-2017 6:28pm

Yes a paper wallet can be done. https://youtu.be/VTsHeiBhPIM Great for long term holding or if you wanted to gift some bitcoin to someone
trezor / ledger nano :- Great if you are worried about your online security. Not so great if you loose the usb key. Have you ever lost one of those usb keys ?
A standard bitcoin wallet like Electrum is the best option. Just make sure to write down the seed :- thats the important retoration code. Just follow this tutorial to do so. https://youtu.be/WdVlH9N2oKU

.G. · 17-11-2017 7:16pm

I presume the answer to this is no but since I see people all the time saying keep your bitcoin in a wallet I'll ask. Can you move your bitcoin off an online exchange but still be able to trade it? I'd like to keep what I have safe but I'm also using it in trades to try and increase it over time.

Shauny2010 · 17-11-2017 7:34pm

No
To trade your bitcoin you need to move it onto an exchange. The thing about these exchanges too is that when there is some major price action like a crash in the price then their is nearly always delays and outages when trying to access or send coins to the exchange to trade

covfefe · 18-11-2017 1:18am

Shauny2010 wrote: »

Yes a paper wallet can be done. https://youtu.be/VTsHeiBhPIM Great for long term holding or if you wanted to gift some bitcoin to someone
trezor / ledger nano :- Great if you are worried about your online security. Not so great if you loose the usb key. Have you ever lost one of those usb keys ?
A standard bitcoin wallet like Electrum is the best option. Just make sure to write down the seed :- thats the important retoration code. Just follow this tutorial to do so. https://youtu.be/WdVlH9N2oKU

You don't lose your funds if you lose a hardware wallet, you will also have the seed backed up (ideally that seed should never have touched a computer/the internet).

I have a hardware wallet, I did have the seed written down on paper but wanted something more resilient so I engraved (with a Dremel) the seed onto something (x 2) with a very high melting point that are now well hidden.

I would consider a hardware wallet safer than using Electrum.

For a small amount a phone wallet is fine, I held a lot of funds on Mycelium for years with no issues. But made sure I always used an unrooted phone and practice good personal security (never reuse passwords, be vigilant when visiting sites especially involving financial transactions, be wary of links in emails etc.)

What I did was:

Install Mycelium and take note of the seed.
Wipe the app and try to restore.
Send a small amount to this wallet.
Wipe the app again and try to restore.
Wipe the app again and do a restore but this time enter a password (very strong), this will generate a new wallet.
Send the rest of your funds here.
Wipe the app and restore the first wallet.

Now you have 2 wallets with the same seed (1 with a password and 1 without). I left the one with the small amount on my phone, I kept an eye on it every so often (who am I kidding, it was every 10 minutes!).

Then if I did get hacked and saw the funds from the first wallet moving that would give me a chance to retrieve the funds from the main wallet presuming my password was strong enough.

I was comfortable with this approach for holding 6 figures, maybe I was just lucky to not get robbed.

wannabecraig · 18-11-2017 12:33pm

Does anybody have any issues with just using Jaxx?

I have Jaxx, can have two copies, one on home laptop, one on phone.
I only keep a few k there but I feel it's safe. I have a security key for sending coins and I have my backup phrase printed and secured at home for restoring if needed. Should I be doing more?

I have have more coins on an exchange, again not a huge amount. I have 24 hr funds transfer delay enabled, two factor, no logins from unknown IPs etc. I feel ok with this, should I?

How do people feel about the safety of using the jaxx chrome extension?

I'm concerned about he USB options as I'm not sure what happens if I lose the key or it becomes corrupt.

wannabecraig · 23-11-2017 3:37pm

Just a revive of this issue.

I know it's a bit of a piece of string question but what are your opinions of amounts that is safe to keep in bitfinex or any exchange?

I'm thinking of getting a hardware wallet but not sure which one and how to store.
If I get the Nano S for example and I lose it, can I restore once I have my pass phrase?

I have money on 3 exchanges and money in a phone wallet, I've spread it about but I'd be unhappy to lose any or those various amounts.
Am I better to consolidate to one hardware ledger? Or even a paper wallet?

pro_gnostic_8 · 23-11-2017 6:25pm

Wanna,
I'll try to answer your queries, but please keep in mind the following are just my opinions -- other folk might well disagree with me.

wannabecraig wrote: »

Just a revive of this issue.

I know it's a bit of a piece of string question but what are your opinions of amounts that is safe to keep in bitfinex or any exchange?

Zero. Zilch.
Be aware that you do not own YOUR coins if you keep them on an exchange. All you have is an IOU from a company operating in an unregulated environment. Any exchange can go bust, get hacked, do an exit scam. All these things have actually happened in recent years. In such an eventuality, you would end up with nothing.
You mentioned Bitfinex -- it has been hacked twice in the last two years. In the 2016 hack, Bitfinex customers were subjected to a 30% haircur of their funds.

I'm thinking of getting a hardware wallet but not sure which one and how to store.

Get one if you have over a €1,000 worth of coins to your name. Which one is up to you. User reviews of the Nano are excellent. I have a Trezor and I have no complaints. The Nano is cheaper, I believe.

If I get the Nano S for example and I lose it, can I restore once I have my pass phrase?

Yes you can.

I have money on 3 exchanges and money in a phone wallet, I've spread it about but I'd be unhappy to lose any or those various amounts.
Am I better to consolidate to one hardware ledger? Or even a paper wallet?

Yes, consolidate the three exchange amounts into one offline wallet.
Funnily, I would have no argument against having a small amount -- say €100 max -- on a phone wallet for day-to-day spending.

wannabecraig · 23-11-2017 6:40pm

Pro,

Thanks. without revealing too much I have a enough to justify buying a hardware wallet.
I've spent the day reading and have decided on Trezor for now, may get a Nano also to have two separate accounts as such.
Trezor has the addition option to add my own pass phrase as an extra level of security.

Thanks for you input and I agree with thoughts on exchange, I intend to remove asap but have stuff like Neo, ripple and Iota which
it's hard to find a wallet for.

The Nano S supports more coins though it seems, which is obv a bit advantage.

pro_gnostic_8 · 23-11-2017 7:04pm

wannabecraig wrote: »

Trezor has the addition option to add my own pass phrase as an extra level of security.

That secret extra passphrase in Trezor is a killer function! An absolute genius invention by Trezor.
Because ........................ as well as providing an extra security level, it also creates a decoy wallet. So, if you are commanded by a court order, if you are asked at a border crossing, if you are threatened by a criminal, etc, to disclose your Trezor wallet, you give it to them. This is the decoy wallet containing a small amount. What they don't know, and will never know, is that there are further secret wallets able to be opened only with the secret passphrase which is known only to you and which you keep in your head. If you are served with a court order to hand over your PIN and you do so, then, you have complied with the law. But this is the decoy wallet. The real stuff is hidden. :rolleyes:
The Trezor team are genius people.

covfefe · 23-11-2017 9:22pm

wannabecraig wrote: »

Trezor has the addition option to add my own pass phrase as an extra level of security.

You can also use an additional password with the Nano S, essentially a 25th word, allowing you to create multiple hidden wallets.

I use a Nano S, it was a flick of a coin whether to go with that or a Trezor. I went for the Nano S as everything is entered on the device,which I though may be a little more secure.

Pdoghue · 24-11-2017 12:22pm

I have a Nano S.. fairly easy and intuitive to use.. The thing that scares me is having to delete apps on the device to make way for other apps. I have some NEO on Bittrexx and want to store on the Nano S, but need to delete one of my existing crypto wallets on the Nano S to make way. Apparently you don't lose your private keys when you delete a crypto wallet.

pro_gnostic_8 · 24-11-2017 1:23pm

Ledger is offering a 21% OFF Black Friday Deal on the Nano S on today, 25th, 26th, and 27th.
https://www.ledgerwallet.com/

Forgot to add in an earlier post, I would advise NOT to buy a Trezor or Ledger from an Amazon reseller or any other third party -- only buy from the original manufacturer.

wannabecraig · 24-11-2017 2:55pm

pro_gnostic_8 wrote: »

Ledger is offering a 21% OFF Black Friday Deal on the Nano S on today, 25th, 26th, and 27th.
https://www.ledgerwallet.com/

Forgot to add in an earlier post, I would advise NOT to buy a Trezor or Ledger from an Amazon reseller or any other third party -- only buy from the original manufacturer.

Nice one, just bought one! paid with BTC!

brendanwalsh · 24-11-2017 3:32pm

at how much money in cryptocurrency should you consider moving to a wallet.

I have a small amount on an exchange at the moment so nothing crazy, is it worth my while getting a ledger or is that only for the big boys.

also, does it cost money every time you send money to and fro the ledger and coinbase

thanks

Selik · 24-11-2017 7:16pm

Diversifying your coins across various platforms and wallets is the best option. If you just plan to buy and hold then Electrum is a also great option and can be linked to the ledger Nani for 2FA also. I work with a bit of column A and column B.

wannabecraig · 24-11-2017 7:44pm

wannabecraig wrote:

I guess it's one you're carrying around with you all the time though so obv more likely to lose. I have an S6 and can't find it. Is it an app or what?

Shauny2010 wrote:

No To trade your bitcoin you need to move it onto an exchange. The thing about these exchanges too is that when there is some major price action like a crash in the price then their is nearly always delays and outages when trying to access or send coins to the exchange to trade

Jaxx has shape shift which allows you to exchange currency within the app. Fees seem high though

wannabecraig · 24-11-2017 7:48pm

brendanwalsh wrote:

is it possible to store your coins on a piece of paper or on a normal usb or do u recommend getting a trezor wallet / ledger nano?

I bought a nano but haven't got it yet. Trevor only supports btc, eth and ltc, which is annoying. Really want to get one but this is a bit of a limitation.

deathtocaptcha · 24-11-2017 8:38pm

Ledger Nano S is the only way to go for me if you're holding €1k+ in crypto.

As for losing it, you could buy two, set up one, back it up and then restore on to the other so you'd effectively have a backup device should one go missing.

Or, you could simply hide your private key in plain sight through using your own scrambling techniques. For example you could split your private key in to 10 chunks and write one chunk down in every 'x' page in a book. If that doesn't go far enough, you could use invisible ink... and add a decoy chunk in between the 10.

Sometimes people get so hung up on keeping their private key private that they don't realise they can store it in plain sight which even would-be hackers don't think about because everyone assumes if you have a private key, you'd have it stored in one chunk in some file or written down somewhere...

ZeroThreat · 24-11-2017 11:19pm

deathtocaptcha wrote: »

Ledger Nano S is the only way to go for me if you're holding €1k+ in crypto.

As for losing it, you could buy two, set up one, back it up and then restore on to the other so you'd effectively have a backup device should one go missing.

Or, you could simply hide your private key in plain sight through using your own scrambling techniques. For example you could split your private key in to 10 chunks and write one chunk down in every 'x' page in a book. If that doesn't go far enough, you could use invisible ink... and add a decoy chunk in between the 10.

Sometimes people get so hung up on keeping their private key private that they don't realise they can store it in plain sight which even would-be hackers don't think about because everyone assumes if you have a private key, you'd have it stored in one chunk in some file or written down somewhere...

I already have a trezor, but their dev team seems less pro-active than the ledger nano team in terms of support for more alt coins.

Having quite a few vertcoins (and some ripple), I'd prefer to be able to store them somewhere else other than destop wallets.

Ditto with regard to Neo- which I have a considerable sum of, I'm pretty sure the neon wallet can be used in conjunction with the ledger?

wannabecraig · 29-11-2017 4:15pm

ZeroThreat wrote: »

Ditto with regard to Neo- which I have a considerable sum of, I'm pretty sure the neon wallet can be used in conjunction with the ledger?

The nano ledger site says it supports Neo anyway, so I'm assuming it does, yes.

Still torn on the two devices. Am awaiting delivery of the nano s atm but really want to secure my other funds.

SkySter · 29-11-2017 6:51pm

brendanwalsh wrote: »

at how much money in cryptocurrency should you consider moving to a wallet.

I have a small amount on an exchange at the moment so nothing crazy, is it worth my while getting a ledger or is that only for the big boys.

also, does it cost money every time you send money to and fro the ledger and coinbase

thanks

Sending money to and from the ledger or any wallet is a transaction and these always incur fees. For me it is good value. Even if my holding is modest it may not always be so the way things are going.

SkySter · 29-11-2017 6:54pm

wannabecraig wrote: »

The nano ledger site says it supports Neo anyway, so I'm assuming it does, yes.

Still torn on the two devices. Am awaiting delivery of the nano s atm but really want to secure my other funds.

I can confirm the nano works 100% with the Neon wallet.

cruais · 29-11-2017 7:02pm

Is coinbase safe?

I am very new to all of this. Downloaded the app and bought a miniscule amount of btc and slightly more ltc. I plan to add to it every fortnight after bills are paid in the hopes that it can be a little nest egg. I know it can crash but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

SkySter · 29-11-2017 7:59pm

cruais wrote: »

Is coinbase safe?

I am very new to all of this. Downloaded the app and bought a miniscule amount of btc and slightly more ltc. I plan to add to it every fortnight after bills are paid in the hopes that it can be a little nest egg. I know it can crash but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

Turn on two factor authentication. Not perfect but better than not having it.

wannabecraig · 29-11-2017 8:16pm

cruais wrote: »

Is coinbase safe?

I am very new to all of this. Downloaded the app and bought a miniscule amount of btc and slightly more ltc. I plan to add to it every fortnight after bills are paid in the hopes that it can be a little nest egg. I know it can crash but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

It's an exchange, after reading a lot more on the subject I decided to buy a Nano S and a trezor. At the very least I'd have whatever you have on a phone wallet or paper, both are free.

For a phone wallet I'd xfer a little to it first, the wipe, restore and if the money is there I'd move the rest there. Androids are notoriously hackably so I'd be careful if you have one.

I do have a smallish amount on a few exchanges.
I have 2FA enable, I also have mail and 2FA enable if I want to xfer money from my account. So my bitfinex accounts need me to sign-in, 2FA, withdraw, need to 2FA at that point too and then I receive a mail that confirms I want to send.

Be as careful as you can be.

DeSelby83 · 29-11-2017 9:18pm

Just waiting on my nano to move everything too. Feel like I have enough to up my security.

discombobulate · 29-11-2017 10:52pm

Any good desktop or iOS wallets anyone would recommend?

wannabecraig · 04-12-2017 11:36pm

Got my Trezor today. Did anybody test the seed when they bought or just copy coins down? I don't mind testing the seed but have gone through the processes, written it down, had that verified by somebody while we went through the 24 words again. So I think the only issue would be if the seed didn't work not my spelling or order I took it down in). Advice welcome. There is an option to wipe the device, so I may do that and try the seed recovery.

Nano s arriving tomorrow, will do a comparison review.

pro_gnostic_8 · 05-12-2017 12:22pm

wannabecraig wrote: »

So I think the only issue would be if the seed didn't work not my spelling or order I took it down in). Advice welcome.

It WILL work, Wanna ! Don't worry yourself unduly.

But by all means do test it if you need to reassure yourself. But from what you mentioned -- double-checking the words as you wrote them down -- there are really no concerns.

I did in fact test mine when I got it a couple of years back, for one reason. I noticed that two of the 24-word seed were identical words. I panicked and thought I had made an error when writing down. But all was well.

Selik · 05-12-2017 1:12pm

Why risk writing them down at all? Just take a picture or screenshot of the words and either print this out or keep the photo file somewhere very safe then delete original photo. I've heard of a few cases where people have lost alot of funds by writing down their see incorrectly.

Blacktie. · 05-12-2017 1:23pm

Selik wrote:

Why risk writing them down at all? Just take a picture or screenshot of the words and either print this out or keep the photo file somewhere very safe then delete original photo. I've heard of a few cares where people have lost alot of funds by writing down their see incorrectly.

Wallets specifically advise against this

wannabecraig · 05-12-2017 2:25pm

Selik wrote: »

Why risk writing them down at all? Just take a picture or screenshot of the words and either print this out or keep the photo file somewhere very safe then delete original photo. I've heard of a few cases where people have lost alot of funds by writing down their see incorrectly.

Yeah, specifically I don't want digital copies of them.

Selik · 05-12-2017 2:29pm

I get what you're saying but if your print the photo then destroy the digital copy you are in the same place except with no chance you wrote the seed down wrong. Whatever works for ya though Ã°Å¸â„¢â€š

Blacktie. · 05-12-2017 2:31pm

Selik wrote: »

I get what you're saying but if your print the photo then destroy the digital copy you are in the same place except with no chance you wrote the seed down wrong. Whatever works for ya though ðŸ™‚

Unless your device is compromised, or you have automatic backup to the cloud somewhere which is compromised.

wannabecraig · 05-12-2017 6:48pm

Nano S arrive today and so far I hate it.

The apps are all separate, there is the manager app, the BTC app, the ETH app (which I can't get to work) these are all Chrome app bty (prob desktop versions too).
You have to delete some currency support in order to create room for others, not much good for me, I bought it because I thought it supported about 20!

The 24 word check is just a check of two words after it spits out the 24 words, so not as complete at the trezor.

The pin is done on device, which some may like. but given the way the trezor does the pin I can't imagine Nano is any more secure because of this.

thunderdog · 05-12-2017 11:48pm

Getting to the stage now where I need to consider some proper storage options. I currently have 11 different coin types spread across 6 different exchanges. The coins (or I suppose the iou of the coins) are still on the exchanges. With a varied portfolio of coins, what is the most suitable safe storage option?

wannabecraig · 06-12-2017 12:02am

I've now got both and my feeling so far is that I'd want my coins on a trezor.
Problem is it only supports 5 coins. Nano s supports more but not at the same time. So looks like you can only have about 6 on the Nano S but they support more diverse coins.

I prefer the look and feel of the trezor HW & SW but I have a lot of atc coins so need the Nano to support those. Nano are not native apps either, so all have to be used seperatly, can't have an overview really, have to open one wallet at time. I'm defo not sold on it.

If I were you I'd check which coins you have and if the HW supports them.

I went down the road of getting both and feel pretty good about that decision.

One thing I will say is get them off the exchange asap. trying to cash out of bitfinex and no movement for over 24 hours,

pro_gnostic_8 · 06-12-2017 12:41am

wannabecraig wrote: »

I've now got both and my feeling so far is that I'd want my coins on a trezor.
Problem is it only supports 5 coins.

Hey Craig, be aware that as well as those five main coins, your Trezor will also hold all ERC-20 coins/tokens by using the MEW interface.

Below is a list of ERC-20 tokens compatible with Trezor.
https://etherscan.io/tokens

wannabecraig · 06-12-2017 9:21am

Anybody know what happens if coin is sent to the trezor and it's not plugged in/active at the time?

covfefe · 06-12-2017 9:26am

wannabecraig wrote: »

Anybody know what happens if coin is sent to the trezor and it's not plugged in/active at the time?

Coins are never sent anywhere, they remain on the blockchain. Your wallet/device is just the custodian for the keys that give you access to the coins on the blockchain. That's the reason why if someone else gets your seed/keys they can access your Bitcoin, even if they don't have your device.

wannabecraig · 06-12-2017 1:16pm

ok, you are of course correct, what I mean is if I send my 'private keys' to the wallet from an exchange while my wallet is offline, what happens?

covfefe · 06-12-2017 2:32pm

wannabecraig wrote: »

ok, you are of course correct, what I mean is if I send my 'private keys' to the wallet from an exchange while my wallet is offline, what happens?

You don't send anything to your wallet, no keys are sent and no Bitcoin is sent. All that is done is the ledger (the blockchain) has address balances updated.

What happens is you have the blockchain, that contains all addresses, addresses have balances on them and have a public and private key. Your Bitcoin address is a hash of the public key and can be thought of as your PO box and the private key as the key to that PO box.

When you withdraw Bitcoin from an exchange to your wallet, firstly prior to that the Bitcoin resides on an address on the blockchain that the exchange has the key to. What is really happens when you ask the exchange to send Bitcoin from their wallet to your wallet is:
1. You tell the exchange the amount and the address to send it to
2. The exchange will create a transaction saying deduct X from my address and add X to the customers address (ignoring fees/change)
3. The exchange will sign that transaction with their secret private key, this will let the rest of the world know that they control that address.
4. The exchange will broadcast the transaction.
5. That transaction will be included in a block by one of the miners next time they solve a block (fee dependant).
6. The blockchain is updated to show that your address has that Bitcoin now

This all takes place online, no keys are sent anywhere, they are just used to create and sign transactions.

On the flip side of that, if you want to send coins to the exchange it's the exact same process in reverse. So the exchange gives you their address, you create a transaction with the amount and the destination address, and you sign that transaction with your secret private key. Then you send that transaction to the internet to get picked up by nodes and miners.

To specifically answer your question, it doesn't matter if your wallet is offline when receiving as long as you know the address.

wannabecraig · 07-12-2017 2:19pm

covfefe wrote: »

You don't send anything to your wallet, no keys are sent and no Bitcoin is sent. All that is done is the ledger (the blockchain) has address balances updated.

What happens is you have the blockchain, that contains all addresses, addresses have balances on them and have a public and private key. Your Bitcoin address is a hash of the public key and can be thought of as your PO box and the private key as the key to that PO box.

When you withdraw Bitcoin from an exchange to your wallet, firstly prior to that the Bitcoin resides on an address on the blockchain that the exchange has the key to. What is really happens when you ask the exchange to send Bitcoin from their wallet to your wallet is:
1. You tell the exchange the amount and the address to send it to
2. The exchange will create a transaction saying deduct X from my address and add X to the customers address (ignoring fees/change)
3. The exchange will sign that transaction with their secret private key, this will let the rest of the world know that they control that address.
4. The exchange will broadcast the transaction.
5. That transaction will be included in a block by one of the miners next time they solve a block (fee dependant).
6. The blockchain is updated to show that your address has that Bitcoin now

This all takes place online, no keys are sent anywhere, they are just used to create and sign transactions.

On the flip side of that, if you want to send coins to the exchange it's the exact same process in reverse. So the exchange gives you their address, you create a transaction with the amount and the destination address, and you sign that transaction with your secret private key. Then you send that transaction to the internet to get picked up by nodes and miners.

To specifically answer your question, it doesn't matter if your wallet is offline when receiving as long as you know the address.

Thanks for this post, very through. Can I ask one more question.
So the record on my device get updated when I plug it in so the coin shows up there?

storage options?

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