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Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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    #632
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I think all we need is one or two women to die in botched diy abortions before it's fully legislated for here.


    i wouldn't be so sure.
    Hannibal_Smith wrote: »
    Well when that right supersedes the right of the woman carrying it that is completely unfair. There is also a duty to protect the living, in every way we can. The living should take precedence.

    life is unfair. the unborn have to be protected and they have to be the priority bar where there is a genuine threat to the mother's life such as death.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #633
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    I don't want to pay for something I fundamentally disagree with and see nothing less than murder. If you want an abortion, pay for it yourself.

    You already pay for it and what's more - because of the added supports put in place by England and Scotland only available to women from NI - you pay more for NI women to have the right to procure an abortion than for women from any other part of the UK.

    More irony than a bag of nails...


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    #634
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    the unborn have to be protected and they have to be the priority


    There it is! you simply think the unborn are a priority over the women who carry them. Why? why is the life of an unborn foetus more important that that of the woman carrying it in your opinion?


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    #635
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    You already pay for it and what's more - because of the added supports put in place by England and Scotland only available to women from NI - you pay more for NI women to have the right to procure an abortion than for women from any other part of the UK.

    More irony than a bag of nails...


    no he isn't paying more as his tax contribution is still the same. the uk mainland tax payer is paying the full cost for it.
    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    There it is! you simply think the unborn are a priority over the women who carry them. Why? why is the life of an unborn foetus more important that that of the woman carrying it in your opinion?

    they aren't a priority. under the current protections they are equal.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #636
    CalamariFritti
    Registered Users Posts: 5,474 ✭✭✭CalamariFritti


    volchitsa wrote: »
    I think the reason people are often a bit uneasy about abortion for Downs is that it's almost the only major disability where the child themselves doesn't seem to suffer.

    I’m not sure about that. From what I’ve been reading they just don’t show you the ones that are suffering. They only show you the ones playing footie or working in Tesco.


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    #637
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    they aren't a priority. under the current protections they are equal.


    But why do you think that? Why is an unborn foetus, the priority over a living woman in your eyes?


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    #638
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    But why do you think that? Why is an unborn foetus, the priority over a living woman in your eyes?


    i've just told you they aren't the priority, both are equal.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #639
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    CalamariFritti wrote: »
    I’m not sure about that. From what I’ve been reading they just don’t show you the ones that are suffering. They only show you the ones playing footie or working in Tesco.


    Who is they in that context? People with disabilities aren't hidden away from participating in society as they once were when people could pretend they didn't exist, 'out of sight, out of mind' and all that craic.

    We've become a much more educated society and now people with disabilities participate in mainstream education with other children, because society has learned to adapt to their needs rather than pity them and feel sorry for them and exclude them from society because a small handful of people are made uncomfortable by their existence.

    The irony isn't lost on anyone btw that in order to 'normalise' abortion, you have to increase the stigma against people with disabilities, which is exactly what a post like yours attempts to do.


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    #640
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    i've just told you they aren't the priority, both are equal.

    Grand, but why did you say earlier that they are the priority except when there is a threat to the life of the mother? That implies that all things being equal you don't think the woman is as important as the foetus she's carrying.
    end of the road wrote:
    life is unfair. the unborn have to be protected and they have to be the priority bar where there is a genuine threat to the mother's life such as death.


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    #641
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    Grand, but why did you say earlier that they are the priority except when there is a threat to the life of the mother? That implies that all things being equal you don't think the woman is as important as the foetus she's carrying.

    they aren't a priority over the mother, but the protection of the unborn is put over the wish of someone to have abortion on demand. so the unborn are equal to the mother, but the protection of their life is more important then the right to have an abortion on demand.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #642
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    end of the road wrote: »
    they aren't a priority over the mother, but the protection of the unborn is put over the wish of someone to have abortion on demand. so the unborn are equal to the mother, but the protection of their life is more important then the right to have an abortion on demand.
    Why is that the case? There is far more to this than just the woman wanting an abortion willy nilly. There is the effort of going through with 9 months of pregnancy, during the last few months being unable to work. There is the financial cost which, with a disabled child, will sky-rocket. There is the onus on the parent to look into how they are going to support the child. Do they give up work? Etc. There is a lot more than the woman just wanting an abortion on demand to consider when it comes to a fetus, even more so with one that has a high probability of having a disability.


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    #643
    Triceratops Ballet
    Registered Users Posts: 4,894 ✭✭✭Triceratops Ballet


    end of the road wrote:
    they aren't a priority over the mother, but the protection of the unborn is put over the wish of someone to have abortion on demand. so the unborn are equal to the mother, but the protection of their life is more important then the right to have an abortion on demand.


    ....in your opinion. I'll remind you that that's not a fact.


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    #644
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    Why is that the case?

    it's obvious. because the life of the unborn has to be protected.
    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    There is far more to this than just the woman wanting an abortion willy nilly. There is the effort of going through with 9 months of pregnancy, during the last few months being unable to work. There is the financial cost which, with a disabled child, will sky-rocket. There is the onus on the parent to look into how they are going to support the child. Do they give up work? Etc. There is a lot more than the woman just wanting an abortion on demand to consider when it comes to a fetus, even more so with one that has a high probability of having a disability.

    as may be, but in this country you don't have the right to murder your baby, and that's how it should be
    Triceratops Ballet wrote: »
    ....in your opinion. I'll remind you that that's not a fact.


    it is a fact. the law in ireland gives protection to the life of the unborn.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #645
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    end of the road wrote: »
    as may be, but in this country you don't have the right to murder your baby, and that's how it should be
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure most countries have the exact same law. An unborn fetus is not a baby so it isn't murder.


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    #646
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    Yeah, I'm pretty sure most countries have the exact same law. An unborn fetus is not a baby so it isn't murder.

    it's an unborn baby and is murder.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #647
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's an unborn baby and is murder.

    So the Irish people voted for women to be allowed to get information to and travel to commit murder?

    Pretty sure that can't be right...


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    #648
    Army_of_One
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Army_of_One


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's an unborn baby and is murder.
    :rolleyes::rolleyes:
    It's a foetus and aborting one isn't murder ffs .


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    #649
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's an unborn baby and is murder.

    If it's a baby from the moment of conception, where's my child benefit for the last 28 weeks? :pac:


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    #650
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    If it's a baby from the moment of conception, where's my child benefit for the last 28 weeks? :pac:


    Erm, you need to apply for it yourself once the child is born -


    You need to apply for Child Benefit within 12 months of:
    The birth of your baby or
    The month the child became a member of your family or
    The month the family came to live in Ireland.

    Source: Citizens Information


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    #651
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's an unborn baby and is murder.
    Ooooo, sorry, that's the wrong answer I'm afraid! The correct answer is that it is an unborn fetus with potential of being a child! It's not a child until it is born and it has no chance of surviving outside the womb before 17 weeks and only reaches a 50% chance after 24 weeks. Thanks for playing though!


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    #652
    One eyed Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 23,695 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    Ooooo, sorry, that's the wrong answer I'm afraid! The correct answer is that it is an unborn fetus with potential of being a child! It's not a child until it is born and it has no chance of surviving outside the womb before 17 weeks and only reaches a 50% chance after 24 weeks. Thanks for playing though!


    That kind of smart arsery adds nothing to your point. Neither of you are actually wrong, it's just a difference of perspective. Within a legal context in Ireland, the term used in both the Irish Constitution and the POLDPA is "the unborn", with reference to human life from the moment of implantation to the time it emerges from the body of the woman.

    Legally, there is a distinction between abortion and murder, and in this country, abortion is legal only in certain circumstances where it was once completely unlawful. Murder is still unlawful. When we're talking about repealing the 8th amendment, we are speaking in the context of legal terms and definitions, not medical, scientific nor social terms which are a completely different context.

    The basis of determining what rights exist and do not exist are only those recognised in a legal context, so while both the unborn and the pregnant woman have a right to life, the 8th amendment places a responsibility upon the State to view the right to life of the unborn as equal to that of the right to life of the pregnant woman, as far as is practical.

    Sometimes it just isn't practical, and that's why in reality, the right to life of the unborn is actually valued less than, rather than equal to, the right to life of the pregnant woman.


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    #653
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    they aren't a priority over the mother, but the protection of the unborn is put over the wish of someone to have abortion on demand. so the unborn are equal to the mother, but the protection of their life is more important then the right to have an abortion on demand.

    If you are so against abortion and so passionate about the protection of the unborn I implore you to go and adopt a couple of the unwanted children stuck in the care system here. Kids born to parents who had no other options and were forced into this world.

    You keep going on about how it's unfortunate that children are born into these circumstances but that it's basically tough sh*t on both the child and parents and they must just get on with it.

    Because you aren't even pro life, you are pro birth, you don't care about what happens when they're here.

    Does it not bother you that people you've never met and will have no impact on your life are suffering because of your beliefs? Strangers, who you would never know either way whether they had a termination or not?
    Do you feel no sympathy or compassion at all?


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    #654
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    So the Irish people voted for women to be allowed to get information to and travel to commit murder?

    Pretty sure that can't be right...


    agreed it's not right. but nothing i can do about it, however i can vote to not have it caried out in ireland.
    Army_of_One wrote: »
    It's a foetus and aborting one isn't murder ffs .

    it's absolutely murder.
    mrkiscool2 wrote: »
    Ooooo, sorry, that's the wrong answer I'm afraid! The correct answer is that it is an unborn fetus with potential of being a child! It's not a child until it is born and it has no chance of surviving outside the womb before 17 weeks and only reaches a 50% chance after 24 weeks. Thanks for playing though!

    it's an unborn child. killing it bar the ultimate extreme circumstances is murder.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #655
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    If you are so against abortion and so passionate about the protection of the unborn I implore you to go and adopt a couple of the unwanted children stuck in the care system here. Kids born to parents who had no other options and were forced into this world.

    i myself decided i don't wish to have children. that doesn't mean i don't care about children or the unborn, just incase you try and twist it, which i have no doubt you will.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    You keep going on about how it's unfortunate that children are born into these circumstances but that it's basically tough sh*t on both the child and parents and they must just get on with it.

    i never said such a thing. you are making up things to creat this monster in your head. it's shameful and does you no favours. i have no problem with you disagreeing with me but trying to make people out to be whatever you want them to be and telling lies is unjustifiable.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Because you aren't even pro life, you are pro birth, you don't care about what happens when they're here.

    wrong. more makey uppy lies. you don't know what i think or care about. i'm pro-life and care about insuring children have what they need.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Does it not bother you that people you've never met and will have no impact on your life are suffering because of your beliefs? Strangers, who you would never know either way whether they had a termination or not?
    Do you feel no sympathy or compassion at all?

    i feel sympathy for anyone who is suffering. the life of the unborn must be protected as much as is practical.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #656
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    end of the road wrote: »
    agreed it's not right. but nothing i can do about it, however i can vote to not have it caried out in ireland.

    I presume you absolutely and tirelessly campaign to have the right to information and travel revoked...and to have all MAP and any contraception that affects implantation banned? Child murder be child murder and all that?


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    #657
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    I presume you absolutely and tirelessly campaign to have the right to information and travel revoked...and to have all MAP and any contraception that affects implantation banned? Child murder be child murder and all that?

    i all ready answered this whataboutery nonsense.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #658
    Army_of_One
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Army_of_One


    end of the road wrote: »
    it's absolutely murder.
    .
    liar


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    #659
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    end of the road wrote: »
    i all ready answered this whataboutery nonsense.

    If abortion is as heinous and morally corrupt as you suggest - child murder no less - then a bit of courage to go with those convictions would be far more rational than your current stance; otherwise all I see is the proverbial and political dog the manger...and to be fair you wouldn't be alone there. It's frankly bizarre how many childless middle-aged/old men consider themselves the bastions of women's reproductive organs.


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    #660
    bodice ripper
    Registered Users Posts: 4,681 ✭✭✭bodice ripper


    Tonight, on Argument by Assertion Theatre...


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    #661
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 29,036 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    If abortion is as heinous and morally corrupt as you suggest - child murder no less - then a bit of courage to go with those convictions would be far more rational than your current stance; otherwise all I see is the proverbial and political dog the manger...and to be fair you wouldn't be alone there. It's frankly bizarre how many childless middle-aged/old men consider themselves the bastions of women's reproductive organs.


    you might get the one oddball who sees themselves as the bastions of women's reproductive organs, but they are very very small in number, and i am not one of them. however, the law in this country gives some protection to the unborn, and i agree with those protections. that's all there is to it.
    no amount of whataboutery, strawmen and lies will change that fact, so you can make up as much as you like about me on this thread but it will fail as none of it will be true.
    Army_of_One wrote: »
    liar

    nope wrong. not a liar but a truth teller and fact giver.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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