Irish Rail Fine

Ekacey · 17-11-2017 01:55PM #1

Hey!

In early October I was travelling from Mallow to Heuston on a late train, but when I got to the station I realised I only had a €50 note and by that time the cashier/cafe had closed. I asked a member of staff what I should do and was told explicitly to get on the train and explain/pay once I got to Dublin. He also told me that if there was a ticket collector on the train, have him call mallow station and they'd sort it out.

Sure enough, I got a fine 5 minutes later by a guy who refused to listen to this story or call mallow. I appealled the fine and talked to staff in Mallow who said they couldn't do anything about it. Now over a month later, I received an email saying my appeal had been denied because they have a "zero tolerance policy for people without a valid ticket where the facilities were available prior to booking" and that this decision is final.

Is there anything I can do here? I wouldn't have gotten on the train if I hadn't been told to, and I did try to buy the ticket but wasn't able to with a €50 note. I wasn't going to pay for a non-student ticket because I can't afford that, now I've got a €158.15 fine..

Thanks,
E

goingnowhere · 17-11-2017 02:09PM

Ekacey wrote: »

Hey!

In early October I was travelling from Mallow to Heuston on a late train, but when I got to the station I realised I only had a €50 note and by that time the cashier/cafe had closed. I asked a member of staff what I should do and was told explicitly to get on the train and explain/pay once I got to Dublin. He also told me that if there was a ticket collector on the train, have him call mallow station and they'd sort it out.

Single fare Mallow to Dublin is €58.15 If all you had was a 50 euro note, you didn't have enough

Fair cop

Ekacey · 17-11-2017 02:13PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Single fare Mallow to Dublin is €58.15 If all you had was a 50 euro note, you didn't have enough

Fair cop

" I wasn't going to pay for a non-student ticket because I can't afford that"

A student single is €14.99

*Edit* €24 at the station actually, but still

lawred2 · 17-11-2017 02:15PM

Store the fine somewhere safe. Like the bottom of your nearest bin.

Personally I'd draw up a letter - make a couple of copies of it and detail your case. State that you are willing to pay the fare as was on the night which is €24/26 whatever.

Register the letter and send it in response to this fine.

Quackster · 17-11-2017 02:17PM

goingnowhere wrote: »

Single fare Mallow to Dublin is €58.15 If all you had was a 50 euro note, you didn't have enough

Fair cop

A student single is €26 so the OP had more than enough. Because the stupid vending machines refuse to give more than €20 in change, the OP was perfectly entitled to board the train without a ticket as IÉ didn't provide them with the ability to buy a ticket at Mallow. Ticket inspector was being a knob.

Ekacey · 17-11-2017 02:27PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Store the fine somewhere safe. Like the bottom of your nearest bin.

Personally I'd draw up a letter - make a couple of copies of it and detail your case. State that you are willing to pay the fare as was on the night which is €24/26 whatever.

Register the letter and send it in response to this fine.

How would I go about registering a letter? I've never done anything like this before.

It does say that the decision is final on the email, should I just ignore that completely?

frag420 · 17-11-2017 02:30PM

Resister your letter at the Post office and dont forget to include "this offer is final" at the end of your letter!!

Ekacey wrote: »

How would I go about registering a letter? I've never done anything like this before.

It does say that the decision is final on the email, should I just ignore that completely?

lawred2 · 17-11-2017 02:35PM

Ekacey wrote: »

How would I go about registering a letter? I've never done anything like this before.

It does say that the decision is final on the email, should I just ignore that completely?

Registered post is done at the post office. Rather than getting a regular stamp - you ask to send a letter by registered post. Costs more but you are given a tracking number and there is evidence that you sent it and that it was received.

Isambard · 17-11-2017 06:01PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Registered post is done at the post office. Rather than getting a regular stamp - you ask to send a letter by registered post. Costs more but you are given a tracking number and there is evidence that you sent it and that it was received.

he's already appealed, no point.

lawred2 · 17-11-2017 06:04PM

Who said anything about appealing...

Tell them that you will make good on the original fare or else you'll see them in court. No judge will side with IR if the case is genuinely as presented by the OP.

JCX BXC · 17-11-2017 06:11PM

For a company with such inefficiencies and wasteful spending of money, they sure do love their fines!

Isambard · 17-11-2017 06:24PM

the problem is it is impossible to tell a genuine case like this no doubt is from a chancer who set out not to pay his fare. Hence zero tolerance.

Quackster · 17-11-2017 06:34PM

Isambard wrote: »

the problem is it is impossible to tell a genuine case like this no doubt is from a chancer who set out not to pay his fare. Hence zero tolerance.

The onus is on Irish Rail to not leave such glaring loopholes. (Vending machines that can give change in both notes and coins is not rocket science).

Otherwise they must give the benefit of the doubt as their own rules allow boarding a train without a ticket in the event a ticket can't be purchased at the departure station.

lawred2 · 17-11-2017 06:39PM

Isambard wrote: »

the problem is it is impossible to tell a genuine case like this no doubt is from a chancer who set out not to pay his fare. Hence zero tolerance.

Even when IR staff & facilities in Mallow contributed directly?

Isambard · 17-11-2017 07:18PM

Quackster wrote: »

The onus is on Irish Rail to not leave such glaring loopholes. (Vending machines that can give change in both notes and coins is not rocket science).

Otherwise they must give the benefit of the doubt as their own rules allow boarding a train without a ticket in the event a ticket can't be purchased at the departure station.

Actually no, the onus is on the passenger to make sure he has a ticket before boarding.

Isambard · 17-11-2017 07:19PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Even when IR staff & facilities in Mallow contributed directly?

Not much use to you knowing that if they won't back you up.

Hilly Bill · 17-11-2017 07:24PM

Quackster wrote: »

A student single is €26 so the OP had more than enough. Because the stupid vending machines refuse to give more than €20 in change, the OP was perfectly entitled to board the train without a ticket as IÉ didn't provide them with the ability to buy a ticket at Mallow. Ticket inspector was being a knob.

No they weren't, the op should have gone and get change or paid by card. You can only pay at the other side if the ticket machine wasn't working.
CCTV footage would show if the op had approached a staff member and been let through the barrier if they want to persue it that way. It is harsh if you get told it's grand and pay at the other end and then get fined on the train.

Hilly Bill · 17-11-2017 07:30PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

For a company with such inefficiencies and wasteful spending of money, they sure do love their fines!

It's where they make their money. They would rather you not have a ticket as they will make more money through fines.

JCX BXC · 17-11-2017 07:31PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's where they make their money. They would rather you not have a ticket as they will make more money through fines.

But they don't make money! Just massive losses!

ittakestwo · 17-11-2017 07:32PM

Is €50 note not legal tender? Seems to me the machines are not in a position to sell all requested tickets and there was no option of a cashier to buy the ticket.

OP you should not have signed for the fine when you got it if you did. I would just send them the fair now by registered post and with a letter saying you won't pay the fine and then let them take you...... they wont. you are a student and they know it won't be worth their while.

Hilly Bill · 17-11-2017 07:36PM

JCX BXC wrote: »

But they don't make money! Just massive losses!

Of course they make money, not profit but they do have money coming in.

Hilly Bill · 17-11-2017 07:38PM

ittakestwo wrote: »

Is €50 note not legal tender? Seems to me the machines are not in a position to sell all requested tickets and there was no option of a cashier to buy the ticket.

OP you should not have signed for the fine when you got it if you did. I would just send them the fair now by registered post and with a letter saying you won't pay the fine and then let them take you...... they wont. you are a student and they know it won't be worth their while.

They don't accept them for transactions less than 31.50.

amcalester · 17-11-2017 07:43PM

ittakestwo wrote: »

Is €50 note not legal tender? Seems to me the machines are not in a position to sell all requested tickets and there was no option of a cashier to buy the ticket.
.

Legal tender only applies when paying a debt.

lawred2 · 17-11-2017 08:00PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They don't accept them for transactions less than 31.50.

Arbitrary nonsense which leads to such situations

L1011 · 17-11-2017 08:35PM

Despite the wailings on here (from IR staff mostly) every time its mentioned, the Irish Rail byelaws have absolutely zero in them to prove that a TVM is an "office" for purposes of issue the fine - and yes, they had an extensive network of TVMs when the bye laws were written.

Write back pointing out that there were no actual booking office open and that a TVM is not a booking office. The newer legislation requires intent to travel without a ticket which its damn clear doesn't apply.

I'm nearly certain the model of TVM they use can actually be configured to give notes in change but it'd add trouble in stocking smaller notes so I suspect its a very deliberate decision not to do so.

GM228 · 17-11-2017 08:52PM

L1011 wrote: »

Despite the wailings on here (from IR staff mostly) every time its mentioned, the Irish Rail byelaws have absolutely zero in them to prove that a TVM is an "office" for purposes of issue the fine - and yes, they had an extensive network of TVMs when the bye laws were written.

IE had an extensive network of TVMs in 1984? Fines for fare evasion are not issued under bye-laws so what is written in them is irrelevant.

L1011 wrote: »

Write back pointing out that there were no actual booking office open and that a TVM is not a booking office. The newer legislation requires intent to travel without a ticket which its damn clear doesn't apply.

The newer legislation does not require intent, S132 (3) of the Railway Safety Act 2005 requires intent yes, however S132 (2) is a strict liability offence - it requires no mens rea to commit an offence.

L1011 · 17-11-2017 09:02PM

GM228 wrote: »

IE had an extensive network of TVMs in 1984? Fines for fare evasion are not issued under bye-laws so what is written in them is irrelevant.

The DART network had TVMs from 1984. They were terrible and fell out of use by the late 80s, but they existed when the bye-laws were written. In terms of their passenger total in 1984 I'd imagine the DART network was well above 50% of it.

GM228 wrote: »

The newer legislation does not require intent, S132 (3) of the Railway Safety Act 2005 requires intent yes, however S132 (2) is a strict liability offence - it requires no mens rea to commit an offence.

The OP provided their details so S132 (2) is irrelevant here.

They had intent to pay the fare, clearly. Irish Rail did not provide a method for them to do so for their own reasons (staffing costs for the ticket office, feck knows what for specifying no note return on the TVM)

Irish Rail need to provide TVMs that work - all ticket options, take all payment types taken at ticket offices - or allow people to pay at destination when the TVM has not been sufficient. The S&B TVMs they use are perfectly capable of selling all ticket options and providing notes in change as they do this in many other countries.

If they want to refuse €50 notes for fares under a certain amount they need to refuse them at booking offices also.

Hilly Bill · 17-11-2017 09:09PM

lawred2 wrote: »

Arbitrary nonsense which leads to such situations

No, because it drains the machine out of change

L1011 · 17-11-2017 09:13PM

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No, because it drains the machine out of change

Get S&B to enable note return. Problem solved.

You may need to stop the 5 and 10 magazines in the mornings though.

XPS_Zero · 17-11-2017 09:27PM

Hold on...do the bye laws not SPECIFICALLY say that if you are directed to proceed by "an authorized member of staff" you are ok?

Look at zero tolerance policies in schools, or drugs, or crime in NY, they are usually disasters for a good reason: they're inflexible and don't take account of grey situations.

rebel456 · 17-11-2017 10:25PM

OP as L1011 as very clearly made out, you have a genuine case here. Send IR back the fine as a registered letter, stating you will pay the fare due. Tell them you will see them in court otherwise. Any judge would throw the IR case out given you did not have any intent on not paying when boarding the train, attempted to pay at the station but IR would not accept your money, and was given direction to board the train without a ticket by an IR official.

Also, please make an official complaint regarding your treatment at the hands of staff you encountered. Firstly the misleading information given at Mallow. The undue stress put upon you because the ticket inspector on the train would not contact Mallow station to verify what you stated. And the fines office for not investigating your case and denying the appeal straight away.

Irish Rail Fine

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