Irish Rail Fine

Ekacey

Hey!

In early October I was travelling from Mallow to Heuston on a late train, but when I got to the station I realised I only had a €50 note and by that time the cashier/cafe had closed. I asked a member of staff what I should do and was told explicitly to get on the train and explain/pay once I got to Dublin. He also told me that if there was a ticket collector on the train, have him call mallow station and they'd sort it out.

Sure enough, I got a fine 5 minutes later by a guy who refused to listen to this story or call mallow. I appealled the fine and talked to staff in Mallow who said they couldn't do anything about it. Now over a month later, I received an email saying my appeal had been denied because they have a "zero tolerance policy for people without a valid ticket where the facilities were available prior to booking" and that this decision is final.

Is there anything I can do here? I wouldn't have gotten on the train if I hadn't been told to, and I did try to buy the ticket but wasn't able to with a €50 note. I wasn't going to pay for a non-student ticket because I can't afford that, now I've got a €158.15 fine..

Thanks,
E

goingnowhere

Ekacey wrote: »

Hey!

In early October I was travelling from Mallow to Heuston on a late train, but when I got to the station I realised I only had a €50 note and by that time the cashier/cafe had closed. I asked a member of staff what I should do and was told explicitly to get on the train and explain/pay once I got to Dublin. He also told me that if there was a ticket collector on the train, have him call mallow station and they'd sort it out.

Single fare Mallow to Dublin is €58.15 If all you had was a 50 euro note, you didn't have enough

Fair cop

Ekacey

goingnowhere wrote: »

Single fare Mallow to Dublin is €58.15 If all you had was a 50 euro note, you didn't have enough

Fair cop

" I wasn't going to pay for a non-student ticket because I can't afford that"

A student single is €14.99

*Edit* €24 at the station actually, but still

lawred2

Store the fine somewhere safe. Like the bottom of your nearest bin.

Personally I'd draw up a letter - make a couple of copies of it and detail your case. State that you are willing to pay the fare as was on the night which is €24/26 whatever.

Register the letter and send it in response to this fine.

Quackster

goingnowhere wrote: »

Single fare Mallow to Dublin is €58.15 If all you had was a 50 euro note, you didn't have enough

Fair cop

A student single is €26 so the OP had more than enough. Because the stupid vending machines refuse to give more than €20 in change, the OP was perfectly entitled to board the train without a ticket as IÉ didn't provide them with the ability to buy a ticket at Mallow. Ticket inspector was being a knob.

Ekacey

lawred2 wrote: »

Store the fine somewhere safe. Like the bottom of your nearest bin.

Personally I'd draw up a letter - make a couple of copies of it and detail your case. State that you are willing to pay the fare as was on the night which is €24/26 whatever.

Register the letter and send it in response to this fine.

How would I go about registering a letter? I've never done anything like this before.

It does say that the decision is final on the email, should I just ignore that completely?

frag420

Resister your letter at the Post office and dont forget to include "this offer is final" at the end of your letter!!

Ekacey wrote: »

How would I go about registering a letter? I've never done anything like this before.

It does say that the decision is final on the email, should I just ignore that completely?

lawred2

Ekacey wrote: »

How would I go about registering a letter? I've never done anything like this before.

It does say that the decision is final on the email, should I just ignore that completely?

Registered post is done at the post office. Rather than getting a regular stamp - you ask to send a letter by registered post. Costs more but you are given a tracking number and there is evidence that you sent it and that it was received.

Isambard

lawred2 wrote: »

Registered post is done at the post office. Rather than getting a regular stamp - you ask to send a letter by registered post. Costs more but you are given a tracking number and there is evidence that you sent it and that it was received.

he's already appealed, no point.

lawred2

Who said anything about appealing...

Tell them that you will make good on the original fare or else you'll see them in court. No judge will side with IR if the case is genuinely as presented by the OP.

JCX BXC

For a company with such inefficiencies and wasteful spending of money, they sure do love their fines!

Isambard

the problem is it is impossible to tell a genuine case like this no doubt is from a chancer who set out not to pay his fare. Hence zero tolerance.

Quackster

Isambard wrote: »

the problem is it is impossible to tell a genuine case like this no doubt is from a chancer who set out not to pay his fare. Hence zero tolerance.

The onus is on Irish Rail to not leave such glaring loopholes. (Vending machines that can give change in both notes and coins is not rocket science).

Otherwise they must give the benefit of the doubt as their own rules allow boarding a train without a ticket in the event a ticket can't be purchased at the departure station.

lawred2

Isambard wrote: »

the problem is it is impossible to tell a genuine case like this no doubt is from a chancer who set out not to pay his fare. Hence zero tolerance.

Even when IR staff & facilities in Mallow contributed directly?

Isambard

Quackster wrote: »

The onus is on Irish Rail to not leave such glaring loopholes. (Vending machines that can give change in both notes and coins is not rocket science).

Otherwise they must give the benefit of the doubt as their own rules allow boarding a train without a ticket in the event a ticket can't be purchased at the departure station.

Actually no, the onus is on the passenger to make sure he has a ticket before boarding.

Isambard

lawred2 wrote: »

Even when IR staff & facilities in Mallow contributed directly?

Not much use to you knowing that if they won't back you up.

Hilly Bill

Quackster wrote: »

A student single is €26 so the OP had more than enough. Because the stupid vending machines refuse to give more than €20 in change, the OP was perfectly entitled to board the train without a ticket as IÉ didn't provide them with the ability to buy a ticket at Mallow. Ticket inspector was being a knob.

No they weren't, the op should have gone and get change or paid by card. You can only pay at the other side if the ticket machine wasn't working.
CCTV footage would show if the op had approached a staff member and been let through the barrier if they want to persue it that way. It is harsh if you get told it's grand and pay at the other end and then get fined on the train.

Hilly Bill

JCX BXC wrote: »

For a company with such inefficiencies and wasteful spending of money, they sure do love their fines!

It's where they make their money. They would rather you not have a ticket as they will make more money through fines.

JCX BXC

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It's where they make their money. They would rather you not have a ticket as they will make more money through fines.

But they don't make money! Just massive losses!

ittakestwo

Is €50 note not legal tender? Seems to me the machines are not in a position to sell all requested tickets and there was no option of a cashier to buy the ticket.

OP you should not have signed for the fine when you got it if you did. I would just send them the fair now by registered post and with a letter saying you won't pay the fine and then let them take you...... they wont. you are a student and they know it won't be worth their while.

Hilly Bill

JCX BXC wrote: »

But they don't make money! Just massive losses!

Of course they make money, not profit but they do have money coming in.

Hilly Bill

ittakestwo wrote: »

Is €50 note not legal tender? Seems to me the machines are not in a position to sell all requested tickets and there was no option of a cashier to buy the ticket.

OP you should not have signed for the fine when you got it if you did. I would just send them the fair now by registered post and with a letter saying you won't pay the fine and then let them take you...... they wont. you are a student and they know it won't be worth their while.

They don't accept them for transactions less than 31.50.

amcalester

ittakestwo wrote: »

Is €50 note not legal tender? Seems to me the machines are not in a position to sell all requested tickets and there was no option of a cashier to buy the ticket.
.

Legal tender only applies when paying a debt.

lawred2

Hilly Bill wrote: »

They don't accept them for transactions less than 31.50.

Arbitrary nonsense which leads to such situations

L1011

Despite the wailings on here (from IR staff mostly) every time its mentioned, the Irish Rail byelaws have absolutely zero in them to prove that a TVM is an "office" for purposes of issue the fine - and yes, they had an extensive network of TVMs when the bye laws were written.

Write back pointing out that there were no actual booking office open and that a TVM is not a booking office. The newer legislation requires intent to travel without a ticket which its damn clear doesn't apply.

I'm nearly certain the model of TVM they use can actually be configured to give notes in change but it'd add trouble in stocking smaller notes so I suspect its a very deliberate decision not to do so.

GM228

L1011 wrote: »

Despite the wailings on here (from IR staff mostly) every time its mentioned, the Irish Rail byelaws have absolutely zero in them to prove that a TVM is an "office" for purposes of issue the fine - and yes, they had an extensive network of TVMs when the bye laws were written.

IE had an extensive network of TVMs in 1984? Fines for fare evasion are not issued under bye-laws so what is written in them is irrelevant.

L1011 wrote: »

Write back pointing out that there were no actual booking office open and that a TVM is not a booking office. The newer legislation requires intent to travel without a ticket which its damn clear doesn't apply.

The newer legislation does not require intent, S132 (3) of the Railway Safety Act 2005 requires intent yes, however S132 (2) is a strict liability offence - it requires no mens rea to commit an offence.

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

IE had an extensive network of TVMs in 1984? Fines for fare evasion are not issued under bye-laws so what is written in them is irrelevant.

The DART network had TVMs from 1984. They were terrible and fell out of use by the late 80s, but they existed when the bye-laws were written. In terms of their passenger total in 1984 I'd imagine the DART network was well above 50% of it.

GM228 wrote: »

The newer legislation does not require intent, S132 (3) of the Railway Safety Act 2005 requires intent yes, however S132 (2) is a strict liability offence - it requires no mens rea to commit an offence.

The OP provided their details so S132 (2) is irrelevant here.

They had intent to pay the fare, clearly. Irish Rail did not provide a method for them to do so for their own reasons (staffing costs for the ticket office, feck knows what for specifying no note return on the TVM)

Irish Rail need to provide TVMs that work - all ticket options, take all payment types taken at ticket offices - or allow people to pay at destination when the TVM has not been sufficient. The S&B TVMs they use are perfectly capable of selling all ticket options and providing notes in change as they do this in many other countries.

If they want to refuse €50 notes for fares under a certain amount they need to refuse them at booking offices also.

Hilly Bill

lawred2 wrote: »

Arbitrary nonsense which leads to such situations

No, because it drains the machine out of change

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

No, because it drains the machine out of change

Get S&B to enable note return. Problem solved.

You may need to stop the 5 and 10 magazines in the mornings though.

XPS_Zero

Hold on...do the bye laws not SPECIFICALLY say that if you are directed to proceed by "an authorized member of staff" you are ok?

Look at zero tolerance policies in schools, or drugs, or crime in NY, they are usually disasters for a good reason: they're inflexible and don't take account of grey situations.

rebel456

OP as L1011 as very clearly made out, you have a genuine case here. Send IR back the fine as a registered letter, stating you will pay the fare due. Tell them you will see them in court otherwise. Any judge would throw the IR case out given you did not have any intent on not paying when boarding the train, attempted to pay at the station but IR would not accept your money, and was given direction to board the train without a ticket by an IR official.

Also, please make an official complaint regarding your treatment at the hands of staff you encountered. Firstly the misleading information given at Mallow. The undue stress put upon you because the ticket inspector on the train would not contact Mallow station to verify what you stated. And the fines office for not investigating your case and denying the appeal straight away.

Quackster

Considering the disgusting manner the OP has been treated by Irish Rail here, they should be demanding compensation! The rare occasion I've had to board a train without a ticket, I've never had an issue buying on board or at the destination.

Evil-1

Might be worth taking this to the National Transport Authority, a TVM that does not accept the second most commonly used bank note in circulation may be a breach of EC Regulation 1371/2007 article 9 (one of the few parts of that regulation that applies to Irish Rail) which states that rail operators must make it easy for rail passengers to purchase tickets.
See here, https://www.nationaltransport.ie/contact-us/intro-and-general-enquiries-press-contacts-and-oireachtas-liaison/rail-passenger-right/

It looks as though step one, engagement with the company has been completed.

Hilly Bill

Quackster wrote: »

Considering the disgusting manner the OP has been treated by Irish Rail here, they should be demanding compensation! The rare occasion I've had to board a train without a ticket, I've never had an issue buying on board or at the destination.

Are you for real? You have only heard one side of the story and even that side there isn't any evidence of being treated disgustingly and a need for compensation.

Hilly Bill

Evil-1 wrote: »

Might be worth taking this to the National Transport Authority, a TVM that does not accept the second most commonly used bank note in circulation may be a breach of EC Regulation 1371/2007 article 9 (one of the few parts of that regulation that applies to Irish Rail) which states that rail operators must make it easy for rail passengers to purchase tickets.
See here, https://www.nationaltransport.ie/contact-us/intro-and-general-enquiries-press-contacts-and-oireachtas-liaison/rail-passenger-right/

It looks as though step one, engagement with the company has been completed.

It accepts cards, and cash and €50 notes.
The chap in Mallow should have just made the op go and get change instead.

Quackster

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Are you for real? You have only heard one side of the story and even that side there isn't any evidence of being treated disgustingly and a need for compensation.

I'm taking the OP at face value and my remarks are in that context. You may want to read the OP again.

kingshankly

Try and get the name of the staff member who told you to go on put it down on your letter
Listen checker was being a prick lost count of the amount of times I tell late runners to jump on and get a ticket at the destination and give them my name
Hope you get sorted mate

Evil-1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

It accepts cards, and cash and €50 notes.
The chap in Mallow should have just made the op go and get change instead.

But would not accept a €50 note for this ticket, while I agree in general getting change was the solution to this problem (if that was possible) the fact that this person was unable to purchase a ticket with the note he had available does imply buying the ticket was not easy.

Hilly Bill

Quackster wrote: »

I'm taking the OP at face value and my remarks are in that context. You may want to read the OP again.

I did.

lawred2

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I did.

Do you know Mallow train station?

If the little kiosk is closed then the nearest shop would be about a twenty minute round trip.

'Should have got change' is a fairly dismissive and Irish rail like response to what was ultimately a failure on behalf of IR to provide adequate ticketing facilities.

Isambard

lawred2 wrote: »

Do you know Mallow train station?

If the little kiosk is closed then the nearest shop would be about a twenty minute round trip.

'Should have got change' is a fairly dismissive and Irish rail like response to what was ultimately a failure on behalf of IR to provide adequate ticketing facilities.

Is any of that Irish Rail's fault?
They can't tell the difference between a genuine case and a chancer. Ask yourself "what would a chancer reply if caught?" I'd guess his excuse would be fairly similar to your story and they will have heard it dozens of times before.

lawred2

Isambard wrote: »

Is any of that Irish Rail's fault?
They can't tell the difference between a genuine case and a chancer. Ask yourself "what would a chancer reply if caught?" I'd guess his excuse would be fairly similar to your story and they will have heard it dozens of times before.

Yes. The ticket machine that doesn't accept 50 euro notes is entirely IR's fault. Whose fault do you suggest it is?

Isambard

lawred2 wrote: »

Yes. The ticket machine that doesn't accept 50 euro notes is entirely IR's fault. Whose fault do you suggest it is?

I didn't suggest it was anyone's fault. Your argument there would be exactly the same had you turned up with a €100 note or a cheque book I guess.

lawred2

Isambard wrote: »

I didn't suggest it was anyone's fault. Your argument there would be exactly the same had you turned up with a €100 note or a cheque book I guess.

No it wouldn't.

Sultan of Bling

In your registered letter ask them to preserve all cctv footage of you in the station at the time.

Hilly Bill

lawred2 wrote: »

Do you know Mallow train station?

If the little kiosk is closed then the nearest shop would be about a twenty minute round trip.

'Should have got change' is a fairly dismissive and Irish rail like response to what was ultimately a failure on behalf of IR to provide adequate ticketing facilities.

The ticket facility's was there and working, it still accepted cards.

Evil-1

Hilly Bill wrote: »

The ticket facility's was there and working, it still accepted cards.

The trouble there is that a credit card is not legal tender, cash is and there is a restriction on the use of cash with the machine in question, this is where it falls foul of the regulation that rail operators must make it easy for rail passengers to purchase tickets, given that Irish Rail is planning to close all it's ticket desks and rely solely on TVM's this is an issue that will need to be looked at.

Isambard

Evil-1 wrote: »

The trouble there is that a credit card is not legal tender, cash is and there is a restriction on the use of cash with the machine in question, this is where it falls foul of the regulation that rail operators must make it easy for rail passengers to purchase tickets, given that Irish Rail is planning to close all it's ticket desks and rely solely on TVM's this is an issue that will need to be looked at.

well, cash is on the way out and on-line booking is on the rise so I don't suppose it will be a problem. I don't think legal tender comes into it.

Evil-1

Isambard wrote: »

well, cash is on the way out and on-line booking is on the rise so I don't suppose it will be a problem. I don't think legal tender comes into it.

It becomes an issue when passenger rights are being infringed, not everyone has a credit or debit card and not everyone is computer literate or access to online services, but every rail passenger has a legal right to be able to easily purchase a ticket.

cython

Evil-1 wrote: »

It becomes an issue when passenger rights are being infringed, not everyone has a credit or debit card and not everyone is computer literate or access to online services, but every rail passenger has a legal right to be able to easily purchase a ticket.

Strictly speaking, I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. Technically every rail passenger has a legal obligation to purchase a ticket before travel. This supposed legal right to something as vague as "to be able to easily purchase a ticket" is nonsense. Unless you can quantify ease definitively and explicitly, then Irish Rail are somehow expected to run their ticket machines in umpteen different languages, and have staff literate in all these languages to boot, just in case someone from abroad who doesn't speak English wants to exercise said "right"? Pull the other one, please.

Are Dublin Bus somehow in violation of a similar right for only accepting loose change and leap cards now too, since it is not necessarily as "easy" for all users? Or does this "right" only apply to rail passengers? :rolleyes:

While I can see how the OP's treatment is potentially heavy handed and harsh, proffering such rubbish as the above doesn't help anyone's case on either side.

Evil-1

cython wrote: »

Strictly speaking, I think you are putting the cart before the horse here. Technically every rail passenger has a legal obligation to purchase a ticket before travel. This supposed legal right to something as vague as "to be able to easily purchase a ticket" is nonsense. Unless you can quantify ease definitively and explicitly, then Irish Rail are somehow expected to run their ticket machines in umpteen different languages, and have staff literate in all these languages to boot, just in case someone from abroad who doesn't speak English wants to exercise said "right"? Pull the other one, please.

Are Dublin Bus somehow in violation of a similar right for only accepting loose change and leap cards now too, since it is not necessarily as "easy" for all users? Or does this "right" only apply to rail passengers? :rolleyes:

While I can see how the OP's treatment is potentially heavy handed and harsh, proffering such rubbish as the above doesn't help anyone's case on either side.

Yes EC regulation 1371/2007 article 9 is exclusive to rail passengers, bus passengers are covered by a different set of consumer rights, I suggest this be tested by the NTA as this is within their remit to enforce , as a situation where a commonly used note can not be used in a machine when there is no alternative pay station does seem to be in conflict with the ease of purchase rights.