Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

AbusesToilets wrote: »

In an alternate world Fitzgerald and O'Malley are lining outside McKinley, with Hensahaw at 15

And let us never forget Nevin Spence either.

Burkie1203 wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

so, again you ignored my points.
Every time I point out the fact players are not talented enough IMO, you think I only have a Connacht agenda
Kearneys C.Farrell and Herring are, for most here, unexpected selections. It's not only about TOH, McCartney
It is (or will be) about J.J, Cronin, Stockdale/Payne/Henshaw as 15 and so on
Yes I disagree about those three, but I agree with 32 others who are not Connacht. Stop caricaturing

C Farrell has almost 100 appearances in the top14, pro12/14, challenge cup and european cup. He is 24 years old. You say he has no talent or is not talented enough on the basis of 4 games you have seen him in for Grenoble. I would bet Joe has seen him a lot more often then you have.

Kearney x2, Farrell were certainly not a shock selection. Herring wasnt expected by me anyway but his form has been good. He is 27. So thats a good choice.

JJH has done nothing to suggest he is being hard done by this time around. We dont know what the issue with Cronin is exactly but that doesnt mean its wrong. Joe could just be looking at Herring and Tracy. You know, to build depth.

Payne is out indefinitely.

Stockdale is going to get gametime at 11. Henshaw could end up at 15 this weekend off the bench. This is all clear signs of developing depth across the squad.  But you take issue with some selections because Joe hasnt picked guys you want in the squad.

He has called up a total of 40 players. Some guys wont be in top form, and some will be there based on credit in the bank. Others like Adam Byrne might not get gametime but time in camp will serve then well hopefully.

There's absolutely no answers except "in Joe we trust" explaining why the 4 guys I disagree with, should be ahead of other options.
Form/credit/age matters alternatively when it suits you

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think we have an obvious candidate though. Scannell has played 10 but doesn't strike me as a real playmaker. JJ isn't in the frame at Munster, let alone Ireland. Ireland are looking at Carbery as a 10 only. Bleyendaal has played a fair bit at 12 but he's not convincing these days either.

The only guy who maybe fits the bill and would be nearly good enough would be Olding.

Whether it's at 10 or 15 I'm not sure that Carbery is good enough to fill the role when sexton and Kearney retire, I know he's young and has had injury problems but I get the feeling at Leinster Leo will pick Ross Byrne ahead of Carbery at 10, I'm not saying he's is a better player than Carbery but at 10 Byrne does all the basics of an out-half's role. I've watched Carbery in most of his games for Leinster usually at 15 and I've yet to see him play a MOTM game or even close to it. I have a feeling he'll go the way of Madigan who never lived up to the early promise

prawnsambo wrote: »

Can you say that with such certainty? With Ringrose sidelined through injury, it's probably true, but once he's fit and back playing again, it's possible he'd be back partnering Henshaw again.

Or Aki. But with just one cap, it's very hard to make such projections with that degree of certainty.

Well obviously we're all offering opinions on here. I am of the view that Aki is the best 12 available to Ireland hence my earlier comment. I think he's still a bit underrated actually, expect that to change post 6N.

connachta wrote: »

There's absolutely no answers except "in Joe we trust" explaining why the 4 guys I disagree with, should be ahead of other options.
Form/credit/age matters alternatively when it suits you

But you havent given any legitimate reason why those you don't agree with shouldnt be in the squad. Form, credit etc are legitimate reasons to call guys up. Herring, McCloskey, Stockdale, Ruddock all benefitted. Stander, POM, Dillane, Kearney etc have delivered previously. There is many reasons for picking players.

Joe brought in Conway, Aki, Farrell, McCloskey, Sweetnam, Byrne, Carbery. If you couldnt see the likes of Kearney x2 getting called up to add some experience then you either had your eyes shut very tightly or you are just plain stupid. It was either them two or McFadden, Bowe, Trimble. So take your pick. we were never ever going into a game against tier 1 opposition with a totally inexperienced back three. And with Zebo and Payne out of the picture there was only one choice really. You must be the only person on the island of Ireland who didnt see that coming.

Everything about Joe centres around training. He has referenced that often enough. So in order to have a metric to judge the new(er) guys he was always going to have a number of guys who are well drilled in how his training runs. They had 2 weeks to prep for SA. Not 2 months.

If he went solely on 'form' the squad would change drastically from AI to 6n to summer tour. Then you cannot build depth and continuity. It is entirely possible we will see 35/36 players get gametime across the 3 AIs. On top of a further 8-10 who played on the summer tour thats leaves Joe with a hell of a lot of information on a lot of players.

Like i really dont understand what more he needs to do. You dont agree with selections then fine. I think Kearney x2 are lucky enough this time around to be selected but i am also willing to look at why he picked them. He knows what they bring in training and matches. He clearly wants that bit of assuredness in particular from RK v SA.

Hastentoadd wrote: »

First up we have a player welfare system so the internationals get time off to ensure they repair from the all the hits they take week in/week out. So there is no justification to not play any player on any given game day.

So then its a matter of what you want to achieve on that game day. So take Fiji. Its a slam dunk win. So what do you do. Just play a second team and win the game or play a first team with a few modifications to see if maybe these modifications improve the overall strength of the team or more to the point these new players integrate into the primary team. So Joe has gone for option 1 where nothing is learnt. He could instead have put Ruddock in, maybe tried Stockdale at fullback and otherwise left the team unchanged. Now you learn something. For example what is the point in having Andrew Conway at fullback. We all know Conway is a better winger than a fullback so nothing new is learnt.

The problem I see is that players don't play often enough with each other at international level and our inconsistent results would suggest that this is true.

So it is not about which I would like in what position. Its more about changing things slightly to see if it works better. Total change achieves nothing

Can players think for themselves without the first xv to hold their hands. There will be plenty to learn.

Hastentoadd wrote: »

You totally miss my point. It is all about consistency. To provide results week in and week out you must have a basic structure. Then you play with that structure to improve it. You do not simply discard the structure. That serves no purpose

But the structure in training is the same. Therefore can new players implement in a match

Simple.

I'm gonna have to block the quoters.
Unless your reply is funny of course.

Burkie1203 wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

There's absolutely no answers except "in Joe we trust" explaining why the 4 guys I disagree with, should be ahead of other options.
Form/credit/age matters alternatively when it suits you

But you havent given any legitimate reason why those you don't agree with shouldnt be in the squad. Form, credit etc are legitimate reasons to call guys up.  Herring, McCloskey, Stockdale, Ruddock all benefitted. Stander, POM, Dillane, Kearney etc have delivered previously. There is many reasons for picking players.

Joe brought in Conway, Aki, Farrell, McCloskey, Sweetnam, Byrne, Carbery. If you couldnt see the likes of Kearney x2 getting called up to add some experience then you either had your eyes shut very tightly or you are just plain stupid. It was either them two or McFadden, Bowe, Trimble. So take your pick. we were never ever going into a game against tier 1 opposition with a totally inexperienced back three. And with Zebo and Payne out of the picture there was only one choice really. You must be the only person on the island of Ireland who didnt see that coming.

Everything about Joe centres around training. He has referenced that often enough. So in order to have a metric to judge the new(er) guys he was always going to have a number of guys who are well drilled in how his training runs. They had 2 weeks to prep for SA. Not 2 months.

If he went solely on 'form' the squad would change drastically from AI to 6n to summer tour. Then you cannot build depth and continuity. It is entirely possible we will see 35/36 players get gametime across the 3 AIs. On top of a further 8-10 who played on the summer tour thats leaves Joe with a hell of a lot of information on a lot of players.

Like i really dont understand what more he needs to do. You dont agree with selections then fine. I think Kearney x2 are lucky enough this time around to be selected but i am also willing to look at why he picked them. He knows what they bring in training and matches. He clearly wants that bit of assuredness in particular from RK v SA.

Wow. Big problem here. That's a lot more ponderated than usual, and I tend to somehow agree. Sorry

connachta wrote: »

Healy/McGrath are undoubtdely in the 23 but do you think Buckley has a slim chance to get a call ahead of Kilcoyne one day? Probably the most frustrueted player in Ireland, when you see guys like AhYou/Archer having caps...

Connachta, you seem to be on a mission here. Buckley, in past years, has been impressive. In recent time I'm surprised he is first choice for Connacht never mind considered for Ireland

thomond2006 wrote: »

I'm gonna have to block the quoters.
Unless your reply is funny of course.

A great addition you have made to the discussion thomond. Well done