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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781

Steve

Continuing on from the previous thread....

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The Rape of Lucretia

Hastentoadd wrote: »

. For example what is the point in having Andrew Conway at fullback. We all know Conway is a better

Lots of point. With Zeebs outa da picture, Conway is number one backup for BobbyK. Being better on the wing (debatable) just means he is pretty much a shoe in for 23 for the near future. And so will benefit from quality fifteen time. He had to start there.

prawnsambo

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Can players think for themselves without the first xv to hold their hands. There will be plenty to learn.

Actually getting lads to step up and take ownnership without the training wheels would be a massive learning. We found we lacked that in some positions against Scotland last season. And against Argentina the season before.

Burkie1203

Hastentoadd wrote: »

First up we have a player welfare system so the internationals get time off to ensure they repair from the all the hits they take week in/week out. So there is no justification to not play any player on any given game day.

So then its a matter of what you want to achieve on that game day. So take Fiji. Its a slam dunk win. So what do you do. Just play a second team and win the game or play a first team with a few modifications to see if maybe these modifications improve the overall strength of the team or more to the point these new players integrate into the primary team. So Joe has gone for option 1 where nothing is learnt. He could instead have put Ruddock in, maybe tried Stockdale at fullback and otherwise left the team unchanged. Now you learn something. For example what is the point in having Andrew Conway at fullback. We all know Conway is a better winger than a fullback so nothing new is learnt.

The problem I see is that players don't play often enough with each other at international level and our inconsistent results would suggest that this is true.

So it is not about which I would like in what position. Its more about changing things slightly to see if it works better. Total change achieves nothing

Can players think for themselves without the first xv to hold their hands. There will be plenty to learn.

prawnsambo

Deleted User wrote: »

I'm on my mobile, can someone post that goalposts moving image

Ah you can do that on a mobile. You're just being a prima donna. :P

Burkie1203

connachta wrote: »

There's absolutely no answers except "in Joe we trust" explaining why the 4 guys I disagree with, should be ahead of other options.
Form/credit/age matters alternatively when it suits you

But you havent given any legitimate reason why those you don't agree with shouldnt be in the squad. Form, credit etc are legitimate reasons to call guys up. Herring, McCloskey, Stockdale, Ruddock all benefitted. Stander, POM, Dillane, Kearney etc have delivered previously. There is many reasons for picking players.

Joe brought in Conway, Aki, Farrell, McCloskey, Sweetnam, Byrne, Carbery. If you couldnt see the likes of Kearney x2 getting called up to add some experience then you either had your eyes shut very tightly or you are just plain stupid. It was either them two or McFadden, Bowe, Trimble. So take your pick. we were never ever going into a game against tier 1 opposition with a totally inexperienced back three. And with Zebo and Payne out of the picture there was only one choice really. You must be the only person on the island of Ireland who didnt see that coming.

Everything about Joe centres around training. He has referenced that often enough. So in order to have a metric to judge the new(er) guys he was always going to have a number of guys who are well drilled in how his training runs. They had 2 weeks to prep for SA. Not 2 months.

If he went solely on 'form' the squad would change drastically from AI to 6n to summer tour. Then you cannot build depth and continuity. It is entirely possible we will see 35/36 players get gametime across the 3 AIs. On top of a further 8-10 who played on the summer tour thats leaves Joe with a hell of a lot of information on a lot of players.

Like i really dont understand what more he needs to do. You dont agree with selections then fine. I think Kearney x2 are lucky enough this time around to be selected but i am also willing to look at why he picked them. He knows what they bring in training and matches. He clearly wants that bit of assuredness in particular from RK v SA.

ionadnapóca

The two big uns in midfield are going to meet their match in this "little un"
https://youtu.be/WwYNLxP5-Hk

ClanofLams

prawnsambo wrote: »

Can you say that with such certainty? With Ringrose sidelined through injury, it's probably true, but once he's fit and back playing again, it's possible he'd be back partnering Henshaw again.

Or Aki. But with just one cap, it's very hard to make such projections with that degree of certainty.

Well obviously we're all offering opinions on here. I am of the view that Aki is the best 12 available to Ireland hence my earlier comment. I think he's still a bit underrated actually, expect that to change post 6N.

Hastentoadd

Burkie1203 wrote: »

As a matter of interest what 15/23 do you think should have been named?

First up we have a player welfare system so the internationals get time off to ensure they repair from the all the hits they take week in/week out. So there is no justification to not play any player on any given game day.

So then its a matter of what you want to achieve on that game day. So take Fiji. Its a slam dunk win. So what do you do. Just play a second team and win the game or play a first team with a few modifications to see if maybe these modifications improve the overall strength of the team or more to the point these new players integrate into the primary team. So Joe has gone for option 1 where nothing is learnt. He could instead have put Ruddock in, maybe tried Stockdale at fullback and otherwise left the team unchanged. Now you learn something. For example what is the point in having Andrew Conway at fullback. We all know Conway is a better winger than a fullback so nothing new is learnt.

The problem I see is that players don't play often enough with each other at international level and our inconsistent results would suggest that this is true.

So it is not about which I would like in what position. Its more about changing things slightly to see if it works better. Total change achieves nothing

[Deleted User]

typhoony wrote: »

only 1 of those 3 was a meaningful game

I'm on my mobile, can someone post that goalposts moving image

typhoony

FellasFellas wrote: »

Wasps April 2017? Edinburgh February 2017? They're two MOTM's off the top of my head, Castres at home in Oct 2016 a third actually?

only 1 of those 3 was a meaningful game

[Deleted User]

FellasFellas wrote: »

Wasps April 2017? Edinburgh February 2017? They're two MOTM's off the top of my head, Castres at home in Oct 2016 a third actually?

I flicked through the Wasps QF from last season recently, Carbery was unreal in attack. Two of the Leinster tries simply wouldn't have been scored if he wasn't on the field.

FellasFellas

typhoony wrote: »

Whether it's at 10 or 15 I'm not sure that Carbery is good enough to fill the role when sexton and Kearney retire, I know he's young and has had injury problems but I get the feeling at Leinster Leo will pick Ross Byrne ahead of Carbery at 10, I'm not saying he's is a better player than Carbery but at 10 Byrne does all the basics of an out-half's role. I've watched Carbery in most of his games for Leinster usually at 15 and I've yet to see him play a MOTM game or even close to it. I have a feeling he'll go the way of Madigan who never lived up to the early promise

Wasps April 2017? Edinburgh February 2017? They're two MOTM's off the top of my head, Castres at home in Oct 2016 a third actually?

typhoony

Former Former wrote: »

I don't think we have an obvious candidate though. Scannell has played 10 but doesn't strike me as a real playmaker. JJ isn't in the frame at Munster, let alone Ireland. Ireland are looking at Carbery as a 10 only. Bleyendaal has played a fair bit at 12 but he's not convincing these days either.

The only guy who maybe fits the bill and would be nearly good enough would be Olding.

Whether it's at 10 or 15 I'm not sure that Carbery is good enough to fill the role when sexton and Kearney retire, I know he's young and has had injury problems but I get the feeling at Leinster Leo will pick Ross Byrne ahead of Carbery at 10, I'm not saying he's is a better player than Carbery but at 10 Byrne does all the basics of an out-half's role. I've watched Carbery in most of his games for Leinster usually at 15 and I've yet to see him play a MOTM game or even close to it. I have a feeling he'll go the way of Madigan who never lived up to the early promise

prawnsambo

connachta wrote: »

There's absolutely no answers except "in Joe we trust" explaining why the 4 guys I disagree with, should be ahead of other options.
Form/credit/age matters alternatively when it suits you

Of the four, only Cronin is any kind of mystery. But only to us. :rolleyes:

connachta

Burkie1203 wrote: »

connachta wrote: »

so, again you ignored my points.
Every time I point out the fact players are not talented enough IMO, you think I only have a Connacht agenda
Kearneys C.Farrell and Herring are, for most here, unexpected selections. It's not only about TOH, McCartney
It is (or will be) about J.J, Cronin, Stockdale/Payne/Henshaw as 15 and so on
Yes I disagree about those three, but I agree with 32 others who are not Connacht. Stop caricaturing

C Farrell has almost 100 appearances in the top14, pro12/14, challenge cup and european cup. He is 24 years old. You say he has no talent or is not talented enough on the basis of 4 games you have seen him in for Grenoble. I would bet Joe has seen him a lot more often then you have.

Kearney x2, Farrell were certainly not a shock selection. Herring wasnt expected by me anyway but his form has been good. He is 27. So thats a good choice.

JJH has done nothing to suggest he is being hard done by this time around. We dont know what the issue with Cronin is exactly but that doesnt mean its wrong. Joe could just be looking at Herring and Tracy. You know, to build depth.

Payne is out indefinitely.

Stockdale is going to get gametime at 11. Henshaw could end up at 15 this weekend off the bench. This is all clear signs of developing depth across the squad. But you take issue with some selections because Joe hasnt picked guys you want in the squad.

He has called up a total of 40 players. Some guys wont be in top form, and some will be there based on credit in the bank. Others like Adam Byrne might not get gametime but time in camp will serve then well hopefully.

There's absolutely no answers except "in Joe we trust" explaining why the 4 guys I disagree with, should be ahead of other options.
Form/credit/age matters alternatively when it suits you

DuffleBag

No Fiji thread so throwing this here. Have 2 x €15 tickets for tomorrow's game if anyone wants them at face. Can't make it. Block 502. They need to be collected in cork city area though.

errlloyd

AbusesToilets wrote: »

In an alternate world Fitzgerald and O'Malley are lining outside McKinley, with Hensahaw at 15

And let us never forget Nevin Spence either.

Don Kiddick

AbusesToilets wrote: »

In an alternate world Fitzgerald and O'Malley are lining outside McKinley, with Hensahaw at 15

Hensahahahaw is right

AbusesToilets

In an alternate world Fitzgerald and O'Malley are lining outside McKinley, with Hensahaw at 15

Sephiral

In fairness, regardless of size, it would have taken one hell of a player to shift the Darce/BOD partnership. And after that, there were few top class options in the centre until the last year or so.

irishfan9

FrannoFan wrote: »

even if he did i doubt his SCT coach would have gone for it if he didn't think it was the best thing for the team. That was a Terenure side that had won back to back JCT's and would have had high hopes of winning a cup

well everyone went along with it so i'm sure the SCT coach did too.

FrannoFan

irishfan9 wrote: »

brewer gave an interview saying while in school, schmidt encouraged him to move to centre from backrow

even if he did i doubt his SCT coach would have gone for it if he didn't think it was the best thing for the team. That was a Terenure side that had won back to back JCT's and would have had high hopes of winning a cup

irishfan9

prawnsambo wrote: »

In what way? Too small for the backrow or because he wanted bigger centres? Or because there were already too many backrows in Leinster?

neither are too small for backrow.

he wanted a big inside centre, he has always desired a good big inside centre.

note - this is not an insult.

irishfan9

FrannoFan wrote: »

he didn't sign Brewer and Brewer moved from backrow to center while still in school.
we thinking IRFU have a hand in schools selections as well?

brewer gave an interview saying while in school, schmidt encouraged him to move to centre from backrow

FrannoFan

irishfan9 wrote: »

two.. coghlan and brewer.

Andrew Goodman - 6'2 102kg was hardly small

it's not an insult to say joe likes big centres...

he didn't sign Brewer and Brewer moved from backrow to center while still in school.
we thinking IRFU have a hand in schools selections as well?

Former Former

irishbucsfan wrote: »

Nothing to do with crash-ball types. That's irrelevant.

Goodman was a very big guy who we brought up here and who got a fair bit of gametime.

He would appear to be only one man however.

aloooof

On an entirely different note, I'm really looking forward to Sweetnam getting a start tomorrow.

prawnsambo

irishfan9 wrote: »

he encouraged both to move centre from backrow due to their size.

In what way? Too small for the backrow or because he wanted bigger centres? Or because there were already too many backrows in Leinster?

irishfan9

prawnsambo wrote: »

Coghlan and Brewer were standouts in school. It didn't transfer to the pro game though. But they were marked for the acadmey early and it would have been a hige surprise if they hadn't come through.

he encouraged both to move centre from backrow due to their size.

irishbucsfan

prawnsambo wrote: »

Coghlan and Brewer were standouts in school. It didn't transfer to the pro game though. But they were marked for the acadmey early and it would have been a hige surprise if they hadn't come through.

They were standouts in the back row in school