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Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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  • #482
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Ah now come on. There are at least 3000 Irish women having abortions every year. There simply isn't the infrastructure or demand to support that many children entering the adoption system.

    We could always start selling the surplus babies to Americans again. We've been exporting our adults for a couple of centuries, why not do the same with kids and earn a nice profit?


  • #483
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    No, of course we can't. That's why we should leave it up to the adults concerned, aka the woman and her partner, to make this decision for themselves.
    You're right that we can't always assume the worst, but we can't have rose tinted glasses either.
    The reality is that the burden to decide should be with the two people that are having the child, because those people will know their situation best.

    You seem worryingly ignorant to a lot of facts, your argument of 'just put it up for adoption' when there is no domestic adoption in this country is particularly startling. It's scary to think other pro lifers share this flippant view, when it isn't even accurate or possible in the first place.


    i disagree. the protection for the unborn must be decided via the current situation, which insures as much as is possible, such protection.
    eviltwin wrote: »
    Ah now come on. There are at least 3000 Irish women having abortions every year. There simply isn't the infrastructure or demand to support that many children entering the adoption system.

    in my opinion that is not a justification to allow the removal of protection for the unborn in ireland, and to allow the taking of their lives.
    Electric Sheep wrote: »
    We could always start selling the surplus babies to Americans again. We've been exporting our adults for a couple of centuries, why not do the same with kids and earn a nice profit?

    children are not commodities. adoption must be non-profit and no donations must be required. children are not for sale.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #484
    Electric Sheep
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,111 ✭✭✭Electric Sheep


    end of the road wrote: »
    i disagree. the protection for the unborn must be decided via the current situation, which insures as much as is possible, such protection.



    in my opinion that is not a justification to allow the removal of protection for the unborn in ireland, and to allow the taking of their lives.



    children are not commodities. adoption must be non-profit and no donations must be required. children are not for sale.

    You understand very little about adoption if you think kids are not for sale.


  • #485
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    How do you figure that? It's the one issue which brings unity of people like no other. The churches here are united on it.

    Ironically from earlier this year the UK government has been covering the costs involved for Northern Irish women who had to travel to England and as of this week Scotland to procure an abortion. So, far from ensuring abortions don't happen, your taxes are going towards paying to ensure NI women are not faced with any disadvantage because of the conservative abortion laws you are insisting on, in the hope it disadvantages them.
    end of the road wrote: »
    we have a system to deal with children who are neglected. it needs huge improvement but it exists and it can be reformed to work properly. if someone really doesn't want a child they can have it adopted.

    Adoption is a complicated and fraught solution purely in relation to unwilling or incapable parenthood - there is only one solution to an unwanted pregnancy.


  • #486
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »
    i disagree. the protection for the unborn must be decided via the current situation, which insures as much as is possible, such protection.



    in my opinion that is not a justification to allow the removal of protection for the unborn in ireland, and to allow the taking of their lives.



    children are not commodities. adoption should be non-profit and no donations should be required. children are not for sale.

    You are once again harping on and on about the unborn again while neglecting to take into consideration the awful circumstances they can potentially be born into with little to no support for the mother from the government.

    The don't stay unborn forever!!!

    It's like you have your fingers in your ears, you just don't want to listen to the reality staring you in the face.


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  • #487
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    Ironically from earlier this year the UK government has been covering the costs involved for Northern Irish women who had to travel to England and as of this week Scotland to procure an abortion. So, far from ensuring abortions don't happen, your taxes are going towards paying to ensure NI women are not faced with any disadvantage because of the conservative abortion laws you are insisting on, in the hope it disadvantages them.

    unless the DUP make enough of an issue over it and threaten to pull ranks.
    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    Adoption is a complicated and fraught solution purely in relation to unwilling or incapable parenthood - there is only one solution to an unwanted pregnancy.

    yes, adoption.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    You are once again harping on and on about the unborn again while neglecting to take into consideration the awful circumstances they can potentially be born into with little to no support for the mother from the government.

    The don't stay unborn forever!!!

    It's like you have your fingers in your ears, you just don't want to listen to the reality staring you in the face.

    all our systems have faults but can be sorted and made to work. the system being rubbish does not justify the allowing of the taking of the life of the unborn in my opinion.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #488
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,244 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    Yes I do.

    Well that's a lie. I normally wouldn't be so sure about someone else to make a definitive statement but there's absolutely no way to go about your daily life obeying every single part of law. Even something to do with driving.


  • #489
    A Little Pony
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,875 ✭✭✭A Little Pony


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    A Little Pony wrote: »
    How do you figure that? It's the one issue which brings unity of people like no other. The churches here are united on it.

    Ironically from earlier this year the UK government has been covering the costs involved for Northern Irish women who had to travel to England and as of this week Scotland to procure an abortion. So, far from ensuring abortions don't happen, your taxes are going towards paying to ensure NI women are not faced with any disadvantage because of the conservative abortion laws you are insisting on, in the hope it disadvantages them.
    end of the road wrote: »
    we have a system to deal with children who are neglected. it needs huge improvement but it exists and it can be reformed to work properly. if someone really doesn't want a child they can have it adopted.

    Adoption is a complicated and fraught solution purely in relation to unwilling or incapable parenthood - there is only one solution to an unwanted pregnancy.
    They can go to England, don't need it in NI. I won't be reconstructed on my traditionalism. Others in society might but I can't change my principles.


  • #490
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    end of the road wrote: »
    unless the DUP make enough of an issue over it and threaten to pull ranks.

    The High Court has ruled it a human rights issue which trumps devolution...a fact even Ian Paisley Jr agreed with.
    end of the road wrote: »
    yes, adoption.

    If a woman does not wish to be pregnant, clearly the solution is not...being pregnant.


  • #491
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    end of the road wrote: »


    all our systems have faults but can be sorted and made to work. the system being rubbish does not justify the allowing of the taking of the life of the unborn in my opinion.

    Sorry but that's just not good enough.
    You are basically admitting that the infrastructure isn't in place to support people in these situations and saying they just have to get on with it and suffer through.

    You know who ends up losing out and suffering most in these situations I'm talking about? The unborn child you care so much about.


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  • #492
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 38,244 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    They can go to England, don't need it in NI. I won't be reconstructed on my traditionalism. Others in society might but I can't change my principles.

    So **** everyone else. Who cares that you'll never know any of them as long as you get to stop them living their lives the way they want?


  • #493
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    The High Court has ruled it a human rights issue which trumps devolution...a fact even Ian Paisley Jr agreed with.

    doesn't matter, it's not wanted in NI, so it won't be in NI. the first time i would ever agree with the DUP.
    GritBiscuit wrote: »
    If a woman does not wish to be pregnant, clearly the solution is not...being pregnant.

    they aren't ultimately being forced to be pregnant. they just cannot take the life of their unborn child legally in this country, which i believe is just and right.
    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    Sorry but that's just not good enough.
    You are basically admitting that the infrastructure isn't in place to support people in these situations and saying they just have to get on with it and suffer through.

    You know who ends up losing out and suffering most in these situations I'm talking about? The unborn child you care so much about.

    the systems having faults isn't good enough agreed. but the fact that there is in my view very very little justification to take the life of the unborn is very good enough.
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    So **** everyone else. Who cares that you'll never know any of them as long as you get to stop them living their lives the way they want?

    sometimes people have to take a stand for the greater good, in this case protecting the life of the unborn in ireland as much as is possible.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #494
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    A Little Pony wrote: »
    How do you figure that? It's the one issue which brings unity of people like no other. The churches here are united on it.

    LOL. The churches don’t make the law. Survey after survey after survey show that a significant majority of the population of NI support things like marriage equality and abortion. The despicable DUP can’t ignore the rulings of the courts and the will of the people. You know the will of the people? That thing you hold so dear... It wants abortion and marriage equality in Northern Ireland.

    Oh. And one quick question. You have said that the rule of law is super duper important. Well the rule of law, through the courts in NI, has said that the current rules for abortion in NI are not compatable with the law and need to be changed. Do I presume you are lobbying your assembly member for the law to be changed, rule of law, and all that.

    Also, who knows what might happen if direct rules is imposed. Something good might just come out of it. There have already been some comments along the lines of if it did happen abortion and marriage equality might be imposed. Wouldn’t that be lovely.

    MrP


  • #495
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    MrPudding wrote: »
    LOL. The churches don’t make the law. Survey after survey after survey show that a significant majority of the population of NI support things like marriage equality and abortion. The despicable DUP can’t ignore the rulings of the courts and the will of the people. You know the will of the people? That thing you hold so dear... It wants abortion and marriage equality in Northern Ireland.

    Oh. And one quick question. You have said that the rule of law is super duper important. Well the rule of law, through the courts in NI, has said that the current rules for abortion in NI are not compatable with the law and need to be changed. Do I presume you are lobbying your assembly member for the law to be changed, rule of law, and all that.

    Also, who knows what might happen if direct rules is imposed. Something good might just come out of it. There have already been some comments along the lines of if it did happen abortion and marriage equality might be imposed. Wouldn’t that be lovely.

    MrP


    direct rule is unlikely to bring abortion. if the DUP pulls the plug, the conservatives will be out of power in the uk. the conservatives need to keep the DUP on side, hence they are unlikely to push the issue.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #496
    captbarnacles
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,972 ✭✭✭captbarnacles


    swampgas wrote: »
    The legal situation in Ireland is very strange and quite hypocritical though.

    I sometimes get the impression that some people want a way to shame women who have abortions, without actually going as far as making abortions impossible - you just have to go to the trouble and expense of travelling.

    Do some people like the idea of making women travel because in some way it's their way of going "tut tut - have your abortion if you must, but not under my roof" ? It certainly feels like it.

    Yes it is otherwise they'd be campaigning vigorously for freely available contraception including MAP for everyone . A measure guaranteed to reduce the number of abortions. It's not hatred of abortion that drives them.


  • #497
    kylith
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,739 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    end of the road wrote: »
    d

    they aren't ultimately being forced to be pregnant. they just cannot take the life of their unborn child legally in this country, which i believe is just and right.

    How is not being able to have a termination if poor or unable to travel not forcing them to remain pregnant? Do you think those women should have a scalding bath and a bottle of gin, or do you think a knitting needle is a better option?


  • #498
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    kylith wrote: »
    How is not being able to have a termination if poor or unable to travel not forcing them to remain pregnant? Do you think those women should have a scalding bath and a bottle of gin, or do you think a knitting needle is a better option?

    statistically you would find that its the middle classes that are travelling to the uk for terminations
    the poorer ladies have the babies and claim single parents but th girls that are "expected "to do college thn carear have the procdures


  • #499
    uck51js9zml2yt
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,268 ✭✭✭✭uck51js9zml2yt


    Martina1991 wrote: »
    Like the child is an unwanted puppy or something.


    Since you referred to puppies. I'll tell you exactly what happens to them. Most of them get put in a bucket of water when they are born.
    But let's call a baby a fetus so we can dehumanise it and kill it before we actually see it.Its a lot neater.

    I wonder how many people who are pro abortion would be up in arms over unwanted pups getting drowned!


  • #500
    Tigger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,705 ✭✭✭✭Tigger


    Winston Orange Pennant wrote: »
    Since you referred to puppies. I'll tell you exactly what happens to them. Most of them get put in a bucket of water when they are born.
    But let's call a baby a fetus so we can dehumanise it and kill it before we actually see it.Its a lot neater.

    I wonder how many people who are pro abortion would be up in arms over unwanted pups getting drowned!

    poor puppies


  • #501
    mahamageehad
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,673 ✭✭✭mahamageehad


    Tigger wrote: »
    statistically you would find that its the middle classes that are travelling to the uk for terminations
    the poorer ladies have the babies and claim single parents but th girls that are "expected "to do college thn carear have the procdures

    Do you actually have statistics on that (and are they in an Irish context) or is that more of an educated guess?

    I would agree that the poorer women often don't have means to travel (and a very small % use a baby as a meal ticket sadly), but interested in why you'd call out middle class specifically over upper? Surely there's more pressure on upper class women with respect to college and career? Genuinely curious, I haven't seen anything concrete on this and I'm fairly sure the UK stats don't differentiate out on economic circumstances. Also, we know that the majority of people having abortions are married or cohabiting, and that 20-30 year olds are statistically more likely to have an abortion that a teenager so I'd be interested in how that factors in.


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  • #502
    LETHAL LADY
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭LETHAL LADY


    Tigger wrote: »
    statistically you would find that its the middle classes that are travelling to the uk for terminations
    the poorer ladies have the babies and claim single parents but th girls that are "expected "to do college thn carear have the procdures

    I don't usually enter these debates but the snobbery in your post tigger amazes me. You can't be serious?


  • #503
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Yes it is otherwise they'd be campaigning vigorously for freely available contraception including MAP for everyone. A measure guaranteed to reduce the number of abortions.

    no it's not. how do you know that people aren't campaigning for the morning after pill to be availible to all?.
    captbarnacles wrote: »
    It's not hatred of abortion that drives them.

    maybe in some cases, but in many it's simply the view that taking the life of the unborn is wrong.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #504
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    captbarnacles wrote: »
    Yes it is otherwise they'd be campaigning vigorously for freely available contraception including MAP for everyone . A measure guaranteed to reduce the number of abortions. It's not hatred of abortion that drives them.

    My pipe dream is no abortions, I'd love a world where nobody gets an abortion. Every pregnancy deliberate, every child wanted.


    What I don't want is the current situation in Ireland (for the moment disregarding the wider implications of the 8th amendment on maternal care) where abortion is discouraged by prohibition and where abortion is a class issue, where massive social harm is caused.

    The way to reduce abortion is to reduce crisis pregnancies. Which means early, explicit sex education. Widely available, preferably free contraception. Support for young women who get pregnant so completing that pregnancy doesn't impact their education or career.

    None of which, IME, chimes with pro-life people. Because people "have to take responsibility". The things which would stop crisis pregnancies and therefore stop abortion are not things which punish people for sex. So **** those things.


  • #505
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,494 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Howard Breezy Minibus wrote: »
    None of which, IME, chimes with pro-life people. Because people "have to take responsibility". The things which would stop crisis pregnancies and therefore stop abortion are not things which punish people for sex. So **** those things.

    you don't know what all pro-life people think or believe apart from the fact they believe abortion to be wrong. when you come out with accusations such as we want to punish people for having sex you lose all credibility and do damage to your campaign.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #506
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    end of the road wrote: »
    you don't know what all pro-life people think or believe apart from the fact they believe abortion to be wrong. when you come out with accusations such as we want to punish people for having sex you lose all credibility and do damage to your campaign.

    Cryptically enough, IME stands for "in my experience", not "I know what all pro life people think or believe".


  • #507
    LETHAL LADY
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭LETHAL LADY


    Let's raise the class system again shall we?

    Those vehemently opposed to abortion and who exist within their own class system are forking out hand over fist to provide for the results of the fornication of the 'lower' classes.

    Possibly a made up quote but anyhow 'To the rich they call it pleasure, to the poor they call it sin' recanted to me by a very astute man.

    I say all this as a woman who'd never have an abortion, but tbh it's none of my effing business what anyone else does, nor does it have any impact on my life, apart from the obvious.

    For me it is a private medical issue.


  • #508
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    LETHAL LADY wrote: »
    I say all this as a woman who'd never have an abortion, but tbh it's none of my effing business what anyone else does, nor does it have any impact on my life, apart from the obvious.

    For me it is a private medical issue.

    Fair enough, but just on this point, is there a gestational limit which you feel elective abortions should not be legally available at?

    Not just with regards to Ireland, but generally speaking I mean.


  • #509
    LETHAL LADY
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭LETHAL LADY


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    Fair enough, but just on this point, is there a gestational limit which you feel elective abortions should not be legally available at?

    Not just with regards to Ireland, but generally speaking I mean.

    I loved being pregnant and I love my children, goes without saying really.

    I can only speak with my own knowledge of the Irish system and it is a complete minefield. Depending on where you live and the religious beliefs of your consultant tbh.

    I hate to say this but there is so much involved when things go wrong it would amaze you.

    I just think it is a private medical issue.


  • #510
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    With respect, that doesn't answer the question. Elective abortions are performed at the request of a woman for non-medical reasons and so while of course I appreciate abortions carried out for medical reasons should be between a woman and her doctor, I'm asking you about abortions carried out for non-medical reasons.

    An important question given the current climate I would have thought.

    So again (and it's of course cool if you'd rather not answer, but) do you think there should be a gestational limit at which point women can legally have an elective abortion at? And if so, what would that roughly be ideally. UK and Holland currently the highest at 24 weeks in Europe, most of the others lower.


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  • #511
    LETHAL LADY
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,145 ✭✭✭LETHAL LADY


    Ok then Pete! 23 weeks💁


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