Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

end of the road · 16-11-2017 05:25PM

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Not really pro-life so, just "not in my back yard".

incorrect. one can be pro-life, but recognise the realities that we work within.

WhiteRoses wrote: »

If she's going to do it anyway what does it matter whether it happens here or in the UK?

And as previously explained to you, what happens to the women who don't have a passport/legality to travel, or don't have the money to afford to make the trip?

Probably the women who are actually most in need of one, if we're honest here, will be the ones prevented from travelling, if you have your way.

This is just going round in circles now. Your logic is bizarre, there is the same outcome whether the procedure occurs here or across the atlantic.

less people are likely to do it if they have to go to the uk.
if people don't have the correct passport or documentation they cannot expect to be allowed to travel to another country. my logic is not bizar, but very sound.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

having a different opinion is not flaming or anything else. you don't have to like the opinion being expressed but that's your issue. i don't do flaming or anything else, i simply express my viewpoint and i believe and standby what i believe and say. people can like it or lump it, that's their choice, but it doesn't make my viewpoint less valid.
i don't agree with abortion, never will, however i also recognise that people can and do travel elsewhere to procure abortions and there is nothing i can do about that. however, i can vote to uphold the rights of the unborn in my country and hope enough people are willing to do the same.

eviltwin wrote: »

Yeah it's not that easy for everyone to leave the country just like that and its usually the ones most negatively affected by crisis pregnancy least able to take that trip in the first place so no, it's not an acceptable compromise.

Besides, I think anyone having surgery shouldn't have to put their health at risk by having to travel for it with the additional risks that brings and the lack of adequate aftercare when there is a clear acceptance from the majority of the public that such treatment should be available here.

It's no Ionger a question of if we get abortion here but when.

i think you underestimate how much public support there actually is for abortion in ireland. there is no doubt it's there, but it's not quite the high amount you might think.

A Little Pony · 16-11-2017 05:38PM

I agree with end of the road. Follow the rule of law.

MrPudding · 16-11-2017 05:44PM

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree. she can leave the country and have an abortion if she wishes and nobody can stop her. so therefore ultimately her bodily autonomy is intact. she just cannot do it in this country and i believe if that protects 1 child then that is better then nothing. in this country the unborn have some rights and that should remain the case.

OK, so you consider bodily autonomy to be conditioned on economic position? Those that can afford bodily autonomy can have it and fcuk those that can't? Nice.

A Little Pony wrote: »

I agree with end of the road. Follow the rule of law.

Of course you do. Follow the rule of law... So when abortion becomes legal you won't be complaining because we will just be following the rule of law. As a matter of interest, what is you view on marriage equality? Happy with people following the rule of law there?

MrP

A Little Pony · 16-11-2017 05:48PM

MrPudding wrote: »

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree. she can leave the country and have an abortion if she wishes and nobody can stop her. so therefore ultimately her bodily autonomy is intact. she just cannot do it in this country and i believe if that protects 1 child then that is better then nothing. in this country the unborn have some rights and that should remain the case.

OK, so you consider bodily autonomy to be conditioned on economic position? Those that can afford bodily autonomy can have it and fcuk those that can't? Nice.

A Little Pony wrote: »

I agree with end of the road. Follow the rule of law.

Of course you do. Follow the rule of law... So when abortion becomes legal you won't be complaining because we will just be following the rule of law. As a matter of interest, what is you view on marriage equality? Happy with people following the rule of law there?

MrP

Well I won't have to worry because it's not going to happen from where I live.

uptherebels · 16-11-2017 05:55PM

end of the road wrote: »

incorrect. one can be pro-life, but recognise the realities that we work within.

less people are likely to do it if they have to go to the uk.
if people don't have the correct passport or documentation they cannot expect to be allowed to travel to another country. my logic is not bizar, but very sound.

having a different opinion is not flaming or anything else. you don't have to like the opinion being expressed but that's your issue. i don't do flaming or anything else, i simply express my viewpoint and i believe and standby what i believe and say. people can like it or lump it, that's their choice, but it doesn't make my viewpoint less valid.
i don't agree with abortion, never will, however i also recognise that people can and do travel elsewhere to procure abortions and there is nothing i can do about that. however, i can vote to uphold the rights of the unborn in my country and hope enough people are willing to do the same.

i think you underestimate how much public support there actually is for abortion in ireland. there is no doubt it's there, but it's not quite the high amount you might think.

Hate to break it to you, but your logic is rarely if ever sound. You live in a land of magic money trees, never coming automation and fingers in your ears while para phrasing maude flanders.
Then to cap it off you say that your pro life stance is limited by geography!!!!

Sure its grand just keep all the poorer people here when they cant afford to travel for abortion. Never thought id see the day where a blind union supporter like yourself would be advocating punishing poorer members of our society just because their working class.

you said women have bodily autonamy because they can travel, so what now when they cant?

January · 16-11-2017 06:03PM

All I can say is thank god places like Women on Web and Women Help Women exist because otherwise I'd have had to have had a baby I could not afford to have, sure I had to borrow the money from my parents to even make the 90 euro donation suggested by WOW.

I could not afford to travel, I could not afford to have another baby, why shouldn't I be allowed to have a legal abortion in my own country? (And don't say 'because it's not legal') what is the difference between here and England?

Guy:Incognito · 16-11-2017 06:04PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I agree with end of the road. Follow the rule of law.

Presumably you follow every law in the book, to the letter?

....... · 16-11-2017 06:22PM

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kylith · 16-11-2017 06:51PM

end of the road wrote: »

i disagree. she can leave the country and have an abortion if she wishes and nobody can stop her. so therefore ultimately her bodily autonomy is intact. she just cannot do it in this country and i believe if that protects 1 child then that is better then nothing. in this country the unborn have some rights and that should remain the case.

So I can have bodily autonomy as long as I'm not poor or unable to travel? Thanks.

end of the road wrote: »

less people are likely to do it if they have to go to the uk.
if people don't have the correct passport or documentation they cannot expect to be allowed to travel to another country. my logic is not bizar, but very sound.

Again bodily autonomy is conditional.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 07:17PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i don't have to accept facts that i don't believe to be facts. women can ultimately travel if they wish to, they aren't being stopped by law unless they don't have the correct documentation, the same as everyone else. people can't afford to travel however if they can't afford to travel to the uk then how will they afford an abortion if it was here? answer, i would have to pay for it. so not only would i have something i don't agree with being practiced in my country, but i would have to pay for it as well from my taxes, when that money could go toards treating serious illnesses.

....... wrote: »

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plenty of logic. it's actual reality, you don't like it and it's fine, but it's still reality.

....... wrote: »

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why am i not this, why am i not that. because i'm not.
to protest the right to travel would be futile. it would also be an unenforcible rule. the morning after pill and contraceptive pill aren't relevant to the discussion.

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

i gave you an argument. you didn't like it, because if you are pro-abortion you will never be against it, so no argument is going to convince you that it shouldn't happen. the same as those of us who are against it aren't going to change our minds either.

....... · 16-11-2017 07:29PM

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A Little Pony · 16-11-2017 07:35PM

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

I agree with end of the road. Follow the rule of law.

Presumably you follow every law in the book, to the letter?

Yes I do.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 07:36PM

....... wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

you are telling lies about me and that is not justified. i have stated i'm against abortion, however there is also the reality that people can and do travel to procure them, something which i cannot ultimately stop. i have to work within the realities whether i agree or not, however i can try and do my bit to attempt to insure protection of the unborn remains to be the case in ireland. plenty of arguments have been put forward against abortion but those who are pro-abortion will never except any argument against it.

eviltwin · 16-11-2017 07:37PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

I agree with end of the road. Follow the rule of law.

And what do you believe should happen to those who ignore the laws and procure abortion here?

January · 16-11-2017 07:50PM

end of the road wrote: »

you are telling lies about me and that is not justified. i have stated i'm against abortion, however there is also the reality that people can and do travel to procure them, something which i cannot ultimately stop. i have to work within the realities whether i agree or not, however i can try and do my bit to attempt to insure protection of the unborn remains to be the case in ireland. plenty of arguments have been put forward against abortion but those who are pro-abortion will never except any argument against it.

NIMBYism. Irish women travel for abortions, so protection of the unborn doesn't happen as long as they are allowed to travel for abortions or can procure pills online to take at home.

So what's your solution there?

Why don't you just admit it's NIMBYism and you're a hypocrite.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 07:57PM

January wrote: »

NIMBYism. Irish women travel for abortions, so protection of the unborn doesn't happen as long as they are allowed to travel for abortions or can procure pills online to take at home.

So what's your solution there?

Why don't you just admit it's NIMBYism and you're a hypocrite.

abortion pills are illegal in ireland and customs are seezing them. for those that get through, those who take them can be prosecuted and that is up to the authorities to decide whether the law should be enforced.
it's nothing to do with nimbyism and i'm not a hypocrite.

MrPudding · 16-11-2017 08:01PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well I won't have to worry because it's not going to happen from where I live.

Oh it will, you dispicable DUP can only retard progress in NI for so long. That time is coming to an end.

MrP

A Little Pony · 16-11-2017 08:04PM

MrPudding wrote: »

A Little Pony wrote: »

Well I won't have to worry because it's not going to happen from where I live.

Oh it will, you dispicable DUP can only retard progress in NI for so long. That time is coming to an end.

MrP

How do you figure that? It's the one issue which brings unity of people like no other. The churches here are united on it.

uck51js9zml2yt · 16-11-2017 08:08PM

....... wrote: »

So what though? Who cares if you think it's right or wrong? There are still people out there who think homosexuality is wrong. And we only got divorce in Ireland by the tiniest margin, how well I remember that dirty fight.

Laws tend to reflect the current morality of a society, and for particular issues, such as marriage equality, divorce and now hopefully abortion, when the actions of an individual DONT IMPACT ANYONE ELSE, then it certainly should be legal.

.

I've highlighted the crux of the issue and to be fair,there was never a truer sentence written on boards.

It's a sad indictment of our nation when we do everything that's right " in our own eyes" with no reference to an external morality.

swampgas · 16-11-2017 08:12PM

The legal situation in Ireland is very strange and quite hypocritical though.

I sometimes get the impression that some people want a way to shame women who have abortions, without actually going as far as making abortions impossible - you just have to go to the trouble and expense of travelling.

Do some people like the idea of making women travel because in some way it's their way of going "tut tut - have your abortion if you must, but not under my roof" ? It certainly feels like it.

swampgas · 16-11-2017 08:25PM

Winston Orange Pennant wrote: »

I've highlighted the crux of the issue and to be fair,there was never a truer sentence written on boards.

It's a sad indictment of our nation when we do everything that's right " in our own eyes" with no reference to an external morality.

What sanctimonious bile.

Who defines what's moral? Morality used to say that homosexuality was wrong, and contraception wrong, and that slavery was fine.

How about we stick to making laws that respect people's human rights, instead of continuing to foist an out-moded, archaic and (to be quite frank) regressive and backward conservative religious morality on people that have outgrown it?

end of the road · 16-11-2017 08:32PM

swampgas wrote: »

Morality used to say that homosexuality was wrong, and contraception wrong, and that slavery was fine.

they have nothing to do with the taking of an unborn life.

swampgas wrote: »

How about we stick to making laws that respect people's human rights, instead of continuing to foist an out-moded, archaic and (to be quite frank) regressive and backward conservative religious morality on people that have outgrown it?

being against abortion has nothing to do with religion for some. it's also not conservative either. it's simply that protecting the unborn as much as we can is the right thing to do

SusieBlue · 16-11-2017 08:43PM

end of the road wrote: »

they have nothing to do with the taking of an unborn life.

being against abortion has nothing to do with religion for some. it's also not conservative either. it's simply that protecting the unborn as much as we can is the right thing to do

What are your thoughts on protecting women in vulnerable situations from the trauma of bearing and bringing an unwanted life into the world, have you any consideration for them or should they just get on with it?

Also how do you feel about children who are born into horrendous circumstances, pretty much being dragged up in neglect, or are going to bed hungry every night because theres food in the house or money in moms purse, in situations where the parents can't cope and the kids suffer?

You are so passionate about the unborn which I can understand but what do you think happens to them once they're here? Is it the right thing for a child to be born to parents who don't want him/her?

You don't seem to have any opinion or interest in what happens these women and children when the child is actually born.
The whole reason I am pro choice is specifically about what happens when the child is here.

To acknowledge the unborn, you have to acknowldege the reality of what life for these parents and unwanted babies is. Because it isn't always pretty. You can't just keep harping on about protecting the unborn and pay no regard to what happens in the aftermath.

No one seems to care about protecting the babies when they're here. It's horrible.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 08:54PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

What are your thoughts on protecting women in vulnerable situations from the trauma of bearing and bringing an unwanted life into the world, have you any consideration for them or should they just get on with it?

Also how do you feel about children who are born into horrendous circumstances, pretty much being dragged up in neglect, or are going to bed hungry every night because theres food in the house or money in moms purse, in situations where the parents can't cope and the kids suffer?

You are so passionate about the unborn which I can understand but what do you think happens to them once they're here? Is it the right thing for a child to be born to parents who don't want him/her?

You don't seem to have any opinion or interest in what happens these women and children when the child is actually born.
The whole reason I am pro choice is specifically about what happens when the child is here.

To acknowledge the unborn, you have to acknowldege the reality of what life for these parents and unwanted babies is. Because it isn't always pretty. You can't just keep harping on about protecting the unborn and pay no regard to what happens in the aftermath.

No one seems to care about protecting the babies when they're here. It's horrible.

we have a system to deal with children who are neglected. it needs huge improvement but it exists and it can be reformed to work properly. if someone really doesn't want a child they can have it adopted.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5 · 16-11-2017 09:02PM

end of the road wrote: »

we have a system to deal with children who are neglected. it needs huge improvement but it exists and it can be reformed to work properly. if someone really doesn't want a child they can have it adopted.

So is it your understanding that there are no legal barriers or complications for anyone to give a child up for adoption in Ireland? A large proportion of women who have abortions have children, but they can just "have it adopted" can they?

SusieBlue · 16-11-2017 09:04PM

end of the road wrote: »

we have a system to deal with children who are neglected. it needs huge improvement but it exists and it can be reformed to work properly. if someone really doesn't want a child they can have it adopted.

No they can't, domestic adoption in this country is pretty much non existent. What we do have is children knocking around the foster system for most of their lives, pushed from pillar to post before having all support withdrawn the second they turn 18.
If they are lucky, and adapt well into a foster home and with the family, they may end up being adopted after a number of years.
Never happens with babies or children, this would almost exclusively be with teenagers.
And this also doesn't happen often because most people who foster, foster a couple of children at a time and therefore won't make the decision to adopt.

These children grow up largely thinking no one wants them, and a large portion end up with social/emotional/behavioural issues. And the sad part is there's no caring adult around long enough to notice or care.

This notion of putting baby up for adoption like it used to happen years ago is long gone. It doesn't happen any more. Instead children are left in no mans land, stuck in the system.

As for the system to deal with neglected children, you have to be joking. It's absolutely appalling. Very little support is given. It's impossible to get help. So many children slip through the cracks.
It will take decades, if ever, to reform.

It's these parents and babies I think of when I think of my stance to be pro choice. Some people should just never be parents.
A sh*t life shouldn't be inflicted on an innocent life where it can be avoided. That's where why this is so important.

Martina1991 · 16-11-2017 09:13PM

end of the road wrote: »

we have a system to deal with children who are neglected. it needs huge improvement but it exists and it can be reformed to work properly. if someone really doesn't want a child they can have it adopted.

Like the child is an unwanted puppy or something.

Forcing a girl/woman to carry out a pregnancy is totally unfair.
Women risk their lives in pregnancy. Miscarriages/ high blood pressure/ hemorrhage/ still birth/ permanent scarring.

Victims of rape/ teenage pregnancy have to deal with the humiliation and shame of carrying an unwanted child to have it taken away.

Pro-lifers try to protect the life of the unborn.

Who protects the life of the mother?

end of the road · 16-11-2017 09:13PM

WhiteRoses wrote: »

No they can't, domestic adoption in this country is pretty much non existent. What we do have is children knocking around the foster system for most of their lives, pushed from pillar to post before having all support withdrawn the second they turn 18.
If they are lucky, and adapt well into a foster home and with the family, they may end up being adopted after a number of years.
Never happens with babies or children, this would almost exclusively be with teenagers.
And this also doesn't happen often because most people who foster, foster a couple of children at a time and therefore won't make the decision to adopt.

These children grow up largely thinking no one wants them, and a large portion end up with social/emotional/behavioural issues. And the sad part is there's no caring adult around long enough to notice or care.

This notion of putting baby up for adoption like it used to happen years ago is long gone. It doesn't happen any more. Instead children are left in no mans land, stuck in the system.

As for the system to deal with neglected children, you have to be joking. It's absolutely appalling. Very little support is given. It's impossible to get help. So many children slip through the cracks.
It will take decades, if ever, to reform.

It's these parents and babies I think of when I think of my stance to be pro choice. Some people should just never be parents.
A sh*t life shouldn't be inflicted on an innocent life where it can be avoided. That's where why this is so important.

we can all come up with the worst of the worst situations for people but it doesn't always turn out that way for everyone. some people having an aweful life doesn't mean all people have an aweful life, and we cannot remove protections for the unborn on the basis that someone's life will be aweful when we don't know as such.

SusieBlue · 16-11-2017 09:21PM

end of the road wrote: »

we can all come up with the worst of the worst situations for people but it doesn't always turn out that way for everyone. some people having an aweful life doesn't mean all people have an aweful life, and we cannot remove protections for the unborn on the basis that someone's life will be aweful when we don't know as such.

No, of course we can't. That's why we should leave it up to the adults concerned, aka the woman and her partner, to make this decision for themselves.
You're right that we can't always assume the worst, but we can't have rose tinted glasses either.
The reality is that the burden to decide should be with the two people that are having the child, because those people will know their situation best.

You seem worryingly ignorant to a lot of facts, your argument of 'just put it up for adoption' when there is no domestic adoption in this country is particularly startling. It's scary to think other pro lifers share this flippant view, when it isn't even accurate or possible in the first place.

eviltwin · 16-11-2017 09:24PM

end of the road wrote: »

we can all come up with the worst of the worst situations for people but it doesn't always turn out that way for everyone. some people having an aweful life doesn't mean all people have an aweful life, and we cannot remove protections for the unborn on the basis that someone's life will be aweful when we don't know as such.

Ah now come on. There are at least 3000 Irish women having abortions every year. There simply isn't the infrastructure or demand to support that many children entering the adoption system.

Would Ireland follow Europe's Lead in Aborting the Huge Majority of Down Syndrome Pos

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