Homelessness: The disgrace that is Varadkar and the Government

Chips Lovell · 16-11-2017 01:19PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Democracy basically means that the people who object the least end up shouldering a greater part of the burden i.e. the middle class.

The thing I don't understand is that the people who say they don't want property taxes or service charges and instead want everything paid for through income tax are often PAYE workers, the people who end up shouldering most of the load in a system heavily reliant on income tax.

turbbo · 16-11-2017 01:19PM

Wanderer78 wrote: »

is there really that much difference between fg and ff in particular in terms of economic policies?

We could question is there a difference between any of the parties - I would hazard a guess that Sinn Fein would adopt a lot more conservative values if they were elected in government. Easy to sling mud when you're not in government.

turbbo · 16-11-2017 01:23PM

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing I don't understand is that the people who say they don't want property taxes or service charges and instead want everything paid for through income tax are often PAYE workers, the people who end up shouldering most of the load in a system heavily reliant on income tax.

Yeah I don't get that - I've had the same experience with work colleagues. As if they don't see all the income tax we already pay.

storker · 16-11-2017 01:29PM

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing I don't understand is that the people who say they don't want property taxes or service charges and instead want everything paid for through income tax are often PAYE workers, the people who end up shouldering most of the load in a system heavily reliant on income tax.

I guess it's seen as being less painful if you never get the money than if you get it and then have to hand it back again.

James Brown · 16-11-2017 02:54PM

blanch152 wrote: »

It doesn't augur well for the future of the country if people want their wealth taxes such as LPT and water charges reduced but also want to have houses built for the homeless.

It is the magic money tree school of economics again.

Is it? I'll tell you what is, using the tax payer to throw dead money at private landlords, B&B's and Hotels because they refuse to build state owned social housing, upon which we, the tax payer, could charge rent.
The idea that paying the private market, for a problem continually breaking records, is more financially sound is ridiculous.
This coupled with Varadkar's plain wrong and false comparisons with homeless figures in other countries, shows they are more interested in funding private property market than the tax payers pocket or the crises.

It seems to me the magic involves FG thinking we can continue as is. Possibly a case of making as much hay as they can before the next crash.

If they can't or refuse to manage tax sensibly, why would more make any difference other than to help things get worse, as we see happening, but throw some fraudulent figures and spin at it and we'll be grand.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 02:55PM

storker wrote: »

I guess it's seen as being less painful if you never get the money than if you get it and then have to hand it back again.

certainly the case for me. you can't miss what you don't get in the first place.

Chips Lovell · 16-11-2017 03:03PM

In fairness to Varadkar, if you plug in the most recent stats, from September 2017, by my reckoning we're at 0.17% compared to the 0.08% cited by the OECD. That still isn't exceptionally high when you compare with countries who count in a similar fashion. It's the same as Austria, less than France, for example.

However, what is probably exceptional is the rate at which homelessness has increased over the past few years. And even if the overall homelessness rate isn't remarkable by international standards, this does create a crisis, since services and provisions for the homeless will be overwhelmed by the rapid increase in numbers. It's difficult, complex and expensive and you can't simply ramp it up overnight.

James Brown · 16-11-2017 03:04PM

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing I don't understand is that the people who say they don't want property taxes or service charges and instead want everything paid for through income tax are often PAYE workers, the people who end up shouldering most of the load in a system heavily reliant on income tax.

Personally, if you are fortunate enough to get a loan for a house, your home. That is an necessity, you are fortunate enough to maybe own within your life time. I do not believe you should be continually taxed for owning something you paid for.
If it's a second home, investment property or Irish base, with you listed as living abroad for tax purposes, then I'm all for it.

James Brown · 16-11-2017 03:09PM

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

In fairness to Varadkar, if you plug in the most recent stats, from September 2017, by my reckoning we're at 0.17% compared to the 0.08% cited by the OECD. That still isn't exceptionally high when you compare with countries who count in a similar fashion. It's the same as Austria, less than France, for example.

However, what is probably exceptional is the rate at which homelessness has increased over the past few years. And even if the overall homelessness rate isn't remarkable by international standards, this does create a crisis, since services and provisions for the homeless will be overwhelmed by the rapid increase in numbers. It's difficult, complex and expensive and you can't simply ramp it up overnight.

Agreed, but t matters not if Zimbabwe has less or more homeless than us. It's the fact that it has risen year on year. It matters that Varadkar's only input of late it to down play it. The man is an international disgrace to even broach the crisis in that manner. It's worse since the days of Kenny, when it was broadly accepted to be a crisis. Now, worse, years later, Varadkar and his supporters are questioning it? Shameful. The expected young bright thing is playing cover for the conservative comedy of errors that is the Fine Gael party. No integrity and no plan beyond 'looking after our own". A damp squib in the history books, more so than Kenny. At least Kenny was around when things of note took place and he made us laugh.

McMurphy · 16-11-2017 03:37PM

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

The left don't want that because they don't want to create ghettos. The noose around their neck is that while it could provide the key solution to social housing, their mantra prevents then from dealing with the linked anti social behavior because they can't make problem tenants homeless.
.

Would you describe FG councillor Alan Tobin as 'left'

“In 10 years time, will this estate in Archerstown, Ashbourne next to Ashbourne Golf Club and White Ash Park be an additional no-go area riddled with drugs, burnt out cars, high levels of state dependency and crime?”

In his self-promotional leaflet delivered to Ashbourne Residents this week, Alan answered his own question with:

“Estates similar to this one in Dublin and elsewhere in Meath have proved to encourage unemployment black spots, antisocial behaviour and a ‘them and us’ mentality that we do not want to promote in Ashbourne”

MayoSalmon · 16-11-2017 03:38PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

but t matters not if Zimbabwe has less or more homeless than us..

Ah yes glad you took the time to compare homelessness statistics between of one of the most developed countries in the world with a sub-saharan African dictatorship:rolleyes:

Chips Lovell · 16-11-2017 03:45PM

Ach, I wouldn't really see it as shameful, more ill-advised. It was the wrong figure to be focussing on. And in the next sentence he said it should be lowered:

“That is a good thing in Ireland, that we have a low level of homelessness compared to our peer countries. But what’s better than that is we don’t think that’s good enough, and we want to continue to reduce homelessness in the years ahead,” he said.

I'd question the "continue" though because AFAIK, it's still going up.

johnnyskeleton · 16-11-2017 03:53PM

Baron de Charlus wrote: »

The thing I don't understand is that the people who say they don't want property taxes or service charges and instead want everything paid for through income tax are often PAYE workers, the people who end up shouldering most of the load in a system heavily reliant on income tax.

Yes, but it is usually increasing someone else's income tax. I also don't see why there is so much emphasis on income tax.

Taxes and subsidies can discourage some activities while encouraging others. Hence we tax cigarettes to stop people using them (theoretically) and subsidise home insulation to encourage less electricity consumption. That being the case, why do we constantly as a society put the bulk of our taxation burden on produtive labour? Is working hard such a bad thing that if you earn over €35,000 a year you have to give away half of what you earn from that point onwards?

turbbo · 16-11-2017 04:07PM

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Yes, but it is usually increasing someone else's income tax. I also don't see why there is so much emphasis on income tax.

Taxes and subsidies can discourage some activities while encouraging others. Hence we tax cigarettes to stop people using them (theoretically) and subsidise home insulation to encourage less electricity consumption. That being the case, why do we constantly as a society put the bulk of our taxation burden on produtive labour? Is working hard such a bad thing that if you earn over €35,000 a year you have to give away half of what you earn from that point onwards?

Do you not think that our high income tax rates do just that - I'm positive it effects peoples decisioning when they take full time vs. part time work - or take work over social welfare. It even makes me personally not work harder to move up the ladder in my career, why would I to only work harder and longer to see most of it go on tax. Nope ain't doing that.

Idbatterim · 16-11-2017 04:25PM

The thing I don't understand is that the people who say they don't want property taxes or service charges and instead want everything paid for through income tax are often PAYE workers, the people who end up shouldering most of the load in a system heavily reliant on income tax.

hundreds of thousands of workers pay in virtually nothing in income tax. Im sure they want the people already crippled by it to pay more. Taxing labour on a low income at that rate is insane! We keep on hearing how damaging tax is, on capital gains, the leisure industry etc, keep it down around 12.5%. Bloody lpt at a farcial .18% (yes less than a fifth of a percent)! yet labour, and people can choose if they work in ireland or abroad, if they take overtime, if they take the promotion, if they prefer a bonus or more time off for example) many in these cases at the insane marginal rate will opt for time off, or my girlfriend for example is getting a bonus, she is investing it in company shares, instead of going for the cash, only due to the outrageous rate at which the bonus will be taxed. Labour is flexible, land and housing arent. To tax income at a low rate, at outrageous rates is so ridiculously anti entereprise and employment, it is ridiculous!

Id say at that rate its well past the point of diminishing returns!!!

and I frankly couldnt give a toss about the "what about the low paid" argument, if you are in Dublin and on 35k ish a year, frankly, you are low paid!

turbbo · 16-11-2017 04:37PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

and I frankly couldnt give a toss about the "what about the low paid" argument, if you are in Dublin and on 35k ish a year, frankly, you are low paid!

Thing is - to get that low paid job you had to work hard in school and college and at the end of it you'll be happy to pay your income taxes but moan about water charges and crap that probably won't effect you. That seems to be the route people are going down - it astounds me.

James Brown · 16-11-2017 04:41PM

MayoSalmon wrote: »

Ah yes glad you took the time to compare homelessness statistics between of one of the most developed countries in the world with a sub-saharan African dictatorship:rolleyes:

Last time I checked, Ireland wasn't sub-saharan.

Varadkar compared outdated stats, with a different measuring mechanism than our own, to our own, to downplay a crisis worse since his predecessor accepted it was a crisis.
He may as well compared us to Goats.

MayoSalmon · 16-11-2017 05:18PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Last time I checked, Ireland wasn't sub-saharan.

Varadkar compared outdated stats, with a different measuring mechanism than our own, to our own, to downplay a crisis worse since his predecessor accepted it was a crisis.
He may as well compared us to Goats.

No he compared us to our International peers which wouldn't be Goats or Zimbabwe, it would be the OECD countries of which he also provided a report.

You may debate the differing definitions of homelessness all you want but I would imagine not many countries would consider putting people up in hotels as meeting the definition of homeless the way we do.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 05:35PM

MayoSalmon wrote: »

No he compared us to our International peers which wouldn't be Goats or Zimbabwe, it would be the OECD countries of which he also provided a report.

You may debate the differing definitions of homelessness all you want but I would imagine not many countries would consider putting people up in hotels as meeting the definition of homeless the way we do.

he used out of date figures. i'd bet that other countries wouldn't be relying on the private sector to deal with all social housing needs like ireland and britain does so that they can funnel hundreds of millions of tax payers money into private hands.

James Brown · 16-11-2017 06:00PM

MayoSalmon wrote: »

No he compared us to our International peers which wouldn't be Goats or Zimbabwe, it would be the OECD countries of which he also provided a report.

You may debate the differing definitions of homelessness all you want but I would imagine not many countries would consider putting people up in hotels as meeting the definition of homeless the way we do.

He took numbers from countries were they count people living with their parents and living with friends as homeless, to Irish figures where we don't include such people. So it was not a like for like comparison. There is no debate. He might as well have compared Irish homeless figures to salmon spawning rates.

As regards people in emergency accommodation, (the increasingly record breaking numbers mind) because they are homeless, we count them as people in emergency accommodation because they are homeless.

You can't fudge the facts regardless of how much misinformation Varadkar spins.

Idbatterim · 16-11-2017 06:02PM

if they are so concerned about our most vulnerable, like the homeless, maybe the E400,000,000 or so they sent up in smoke on welfare increases, could go towards the homeless situation and social housing etc :rolleyes:

blanch152 · 16-11-2017 06:05PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Last time I checked, Ireland wasn't sub-saharan.

Varadkar compared outdated stats, with a different measuring mechanism than our own, to our own, to downplay a crisis worse since his predecessor accepted it was a crisis.
He may as well compared us to Goats.

According to Peter McVerry, Varadkar compared outdated stats, with a different measuring mechanism than our own, to our own. That doesn't make it fact.

blanch152 · 16-11-2017 06:20PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

He took numbers from countries were they count people living with their parents and living with friends as homeless, to Irish figures where we don't include such people. So it was not a like for like comparison. There is no debate. He might as well have compared Irish homeless figures to salmon spawning rates.

As regards people in emergency accommodation, (the increasingly record breaking numbers mind) because they are homeless, we count them as people in emergency accommodation because they are homeless.

You can't fudge the facts regardless of how much misinformation Varadkar spins.

You are going on what Peter McVerry has told you not the real truth. McVerry never has a good word to say and we are always facing a disaster. Go back to 2014:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/the-homeless-industry-also-has-questions-to-answer-30804937.html

"Champion of the homeless Fr Peter McVerry recently said Ireland was facing a "tsunami of homelessness". But the problem does not appear to be new or growing wildly out of control, as he and others seem to suggest."

That was 2014. The homeless are always with us, as the article suggests. If you want a real shocking quotation from the article, here it is:

"It is estimated that the "homeless industry" receives between €100m and €120m from state funding sources."

DIT only got €71m from the State to educate thousands of students and they graduated most of them.

Connolly Hospital, Blanchardstown got less than €100m from the state, and treated thousands of patients, curing most of them.

It seems like the success rate for the money spent on the homeless is tiny by comparison, given all the bleating we here.

McVerry has previously said that we have more homeless now than at any time since the Famine. This is another lie, there were over 40,000 in workhouses in 1900. Exaggerate, shout, claim, get another grant, exaggerate, claim, get another grant, spend loads of money and nobody has ever questioned why the problem isn't getting better when the homeless industry is spending €100m a year. Is it all spent on briefing journalists and press releases?

16-11-2017 06:27PM

Matt Barrett wrote: »

Agreed, but t matters not if Zimbabwe has less or more homeless than us. It's the fact that it has risen year on year. It matters that Varadkar's only input of late it to down play it. The man is an international disgrace to even broach the crisis in that manner. It's worse since the days of Kenny, when it was broadly accepted to be a crisis. Now, worse, years later, Varadkar and his supporters are questioning it? Shameful. The expected young bright thing is playing cover for the conservative comedy of errors that is the Fine Gael party. No integrity and no plan beyond 'looking after our own". A damp squib in the history books, more so than Kenny. At least Kenny was around when things of note took place and he made us laugh.

Do you think there's any actual value in your ranting hyperbole against Varadkar?

Do you have a preferred Taoiseach and govt you'd like to nominate so that they can be given the same gimlet eye of judgement?

Always good to have some cards on the table when all someone wants to do is fling muck at the govt, which is a far handier number than actually getting things done.

end of the road · 16-11-2017 06:43PM

blanch152 wrote: »

According to Peter McVerry, Varadkar compared outdated stats, with a different measuring mechanism than our own, to our own. That doesn't make it fact.

blanch152 wrote: »

You are going on what Peter McVerry has told you not the real truth. McVerry never has a good word to say and we are always facing a disaster. Go back to 2014:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/the-homeless-industry-also-has-questions-to-answer-30804937.html

"Champion of the homeless Fr Peter McVerry recently said Ireland was facing a "tsunami of homelessness". But the problem does not appear to be new or growing wildly out of control, as he and others seem to suggest."

That was 2014. The homeless are always with us, as the article suggests. If you want a real shocking quotation from the article, here it is:

"It is estimated that the "homeless industry" receives between €100m and €120m from state funding sources."

DIT only got €71m from the State to educate thousands of students and they graduated most of them.

Connolly Hospital, Blanchardstown got less than €100m from the state, and treated thousands of patients, curing most of them.

It seems like the success rate for the money spent on the homeless is tiny by comparison, given all the bleating we here.

McVerry has previously said that we have more homeless now than at any time since the Famine. This is another lie, there were over 40,000 in workhouses in 1900. Exaggerate, shout, claim, get another grant, exaggerate, claim, get another grant, spend loads of money and nobody has ever questioned why the problem isn't getting better when the homeless industry is spending €100m a year. Is it all spent on briefing journalists and press releases?

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think there's any actual value in your ranting hyperbole against Varadkar?

Do you have a preferred Taoiseach and govt you'd like to nominate so that they can be given the same gimlet eye of judgement?

Always good to have some cards on the table when all someone wants to do is fling muck at the govt, which is a far handier number than actually getting things done.

deny, deny, deny. sweep it under the carpet, pretend it never happened or doesn't exist, or that it goes away. the fact is, varadkar spun, used out of date figures, and was inaccurate in his statements.

Idbatterim · 16-11-2017 06:50PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think there's any actual value in your ranting hyperbole against Varadkar?

Do you have a preferred Taoiseach and govt you'd like to nominate so that they can be given the same gimlet eye of judgement?

Always good to have some cards on the table when all someone wants to do is fling muck at the govt, which is a far handier number than actually getting things done.

let me say something here, from a former FG voter, including in the last election. I read articles that we are doing the least on climate change in europe earlier in the indo, that dublin comes 47th worst out of 51 cities in global expats survey

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-ranked-as-one-of-world-s-most-expensive-cities-1.3292814

blanch152 · 16-11-2017 06:52PM

Idbatterim wrote: »

let me say something here, from a former FG voter, including in the last election. I read articles that we are doing the least on climate change in europe earlier in the indo, that dublin comes 47th worst out of 51 cities in global expats survey

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/dublin-ranked-as-one-of-world-s-most-expensive-cities-1.3292814

Absolutely, we are not doing enough on climate change. Most important issue (after financial issues) and this government is failing on it.

James Brown · 16-11-2017 06:53PM

blanch152 wrote: »

According to Peter McVerry, Varadkar compared outdated stats, with a different measuring mechanism than our own, to our own. That doesn't make it fact.

It absolutely does. McVerry explained the fact that Varadkar used figures derived from a different measuring method to our own.
What do you read as up for debate in that factual reality?

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you think there's any actual value in your ranting hyperbole against Varadkar?

Do you have a preferred Taoiseach and govt you'd like to nominate so that they can be given the same gimlet eye of judgement?

Always good to have some cards on the table when all someone wants to do is fling muck at the govt, which is a far handier number than actually getting things done.

It's a case of flinging the government's muck back at it.
There is a lot of value in calling out fudged figures on a national crisis, used to downplay a national crisis by the political leader of the country. Most certainly. If some are content to let false narratives be spun to deflect and downplay real serious issues, that's sad and has us with the caliber of politician we have.

Idbatterim · 16-11-2017 06:53PM

blanch152 wrote: »

Absolutely, we are not doing enough on climate change. Most important issue (after financial issues) and this government is failing on it.

third world transport system in dublin, linked to climate change, doesnt help much either. The housing situation is beyond a scandal and crisis! They are world class talkers, Ill give them full credit for that, about the only thing they arent a joke at... :rolleyes:

16-11-2017 06:59PM

A big problem with the homeless crises is the number of vested interests, ie charities. How many of them are paying their "Volunteers". This money could be better spent - on the Homeless.
Then you have the likes of Erica Fleming, who refused to leave hotel accommodation until she got what she wanted.
One lady made a very good point about the rough sleepers knowing where to go to get food at night. Food often delivered by unregistered and unchecked people.
Homelessness is an industry in itself. It will always be with us. Screaming for more homes to be built is futile, as there is a process to go through. One that involves people willing to allow developments in their areas.
Many, if not all rough sleepers don't want to have a roof over their heads. Not if it means taking responsibility for themselves by refraining from drinking or taking drugs.

Homelessness: The disgrace that is Varadkar and the Government

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