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We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

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  • #272
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    solodeogloria wrote:
    The moderators have decided that this is a thread for pro-choice views only. I will respect that decision.


    It's not, it is for for both females and males to give an account of their experience with abortion. You however wish to make it as emotive as you can with the choice of words you used to describe the procedure.


  • #273
    Crea
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Crea


    You can go on the TMFR Facebook page or website and any number of couples have posted their experiences of travelling to England to deliver their babies with terminal conditions.


  • #274
    Carry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Carry


    LadyMacBeth_ wrote: »
    I think it's a good thing to have a place for women and men to discuss their experiences of abortion, rather than the usual threads we have here that go around in the same circles, there has been some of that of course, but some people just can't be respectful and leave the conversation alone. I'm pro choice, and I believe in abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and in the case of ffa or risk to the woman then I think later abortions are necessary. Good on the women who have spoken about their abortions here on the thread, it can't be an easy thing to discuss when you do have people out there that demonise you. I haven't had one myself so I have no idea what it's like and I don't presume to know.

    That was my intention to start the thread, but believe me, it was not spontaneously. I was thinking about it for days, because I know After Hours and I know how you can get shunned even in real life, if you admit something like that. But what's the point to admire other people (men or women) for their courage, if you can't bring up the courage yourself?

    And I agree about abortion up to twelve weeks. Later on I problably couldn't stomach it for myself, but would accept it if their is a real risk for a woman's life .
    LadyMacBeth_ wrote: »
    I have a genetic illness that can now be tested for in pregnancy, it's Cystic Fibrosis, it can only be tested for if the parents are aware that they are carriers. I was born in 1988 and CF genes only began to be discovered in 1989 so this wasn't an option for my parents, nor did they know they were carriers. I was diagnosed at the age of 14 which is quite old for people with CF, usually it is discovered as babies or toddlers. My mother has never coped very well with my illness, usually she is in complete denial and doesn't really seem to be able to acknowledge it. I've done all of my own research and treatment since I found out, she helped a bit when I was younger but she has always referred to me as a strain or a burden, which hasn't been easy to hear. I asked her once if she would have aborted me had she known, and she said she didn't know. I think she would have, and in fairness to her, I wouldn't blame her at all for that decision, I know exactly why she would have made it and I understand. I don't think she is cut out to have an ill child and I don't think she ever was, and I wouldn't have known the difference.

    To think like that is very mature, but very hard as well to ackknowledge. I really admire you for that. If I were your mother I would be very proud of you, I think your mother probably is.

    My parents didn't have an easy life and both had an early death (both in their early forties). I once asked my mother, not long before she died, if she is happy with her life. She hesitated and then told me of her dreams as a young woman. It didn't involve me as such, it didn't involve struggling to keep a family afloat and giving up her aspirations, it didn't even involve my Dad. But I didn't feel rejected, she just taught me a lesson to follow my dreams.

    I think if anyone would ask their mothers they would be amazed, assumed mothers are honest.


  • #275
    RabbleRouser2k
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,625 ✭✭✭RabbleRouser2k


    Deleted User wrote: »
    It is brave to put yourself out there and talk about difficult experience of abortion yet there is a part of me that finds it a little off. I have yet to figure out why that is.

    I wouldn't be too obsessed with that-I have quibbles of my own. I know myself that I have a few phrases that make my spider-sense tingle, as well as a few phrases (the person saying them means no malice, it just sounds bad to me).

    There can be a little bit of 'oh why'd you have to say that, that's private' to this-and nobody should be 'outed' for it either. But sometimes you can feel really alone when it comes to issues like terminations, mental illness, sexuality issues, or even long term 'I have no idea what I'm doing' (to name a give a few examples. Also, I don't wish to conflate either of these-as in 'mental illness and terminations go hand in hand' I don't, I was just using a poorly implemented analogy).
    am i bovvered wrote: »
    Hi Rabble
    Lots of children come into the world unplanned and initially unwanted, do not allow this to stop you living your life !!
    Please stop reinforcing the image you have determined for yourself into the future. No more 'I am' regarding past behaviour. You sound young and your life is in your own hands, no excuses.
    To help you with this make sure you are getting help with your issues as well as exercising and working.
    You are worthy of life, you have life, live life :)

    Well, I was definitely planned, but it often felt like one parent wanted another son, and one parent did not. I wish I was young, instead I'm extremely immature (Not in my 20s anymore, for one). But it's been a rough couple of months-and hoping to get into therapy as well now.
    I've never truly felt hated, in a long term way (I mean I've caused problems-but no major drama).
    Being unemployed at the moment hasn't helped either. It's just been a series of wrong turns that's left me in worse shape than I had imagined.
    I have to find a reason to live, most definitely.


  • #276
    JupiterKid
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 13,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭JupiterKid


    In 30 odd years time people will look back at the Ireland of 2017 and be stunned at the level of vitriol on the so-called abortion "debate", just how we look back at the Ireland of former times had are horrified just how socially backward it was, with women as second class citizens (they still are IMO) LGBT people persecuted, divorce illegal, violence up North, contraception illegal, young girls who got pregnant thrown into Magadeline laundries and mother and baby hell holes.

    A society develops and moves on. Ireland is no different to any others in that regard. There is nothing all that special about this country.

    But it's clear that quite a few posters would dearly return to those very dark days. It seeps from their posts.


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  • #277
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    Thankfully no one in my circles has had one or needed to. At least that I know of of course! Who can tell?

    There have been a few miscarriages in relatively early stages in my social and family circles however. And a lot (far from all though) of the emotional suffering involved in that shares parallels with the reason people suffer emotionally after an abortion.

    And the narratives in play that fuel that suffering I have found very useful to slowly and delicately unpack with those women in my life who had that issue. In a caring and careful, rather than cold and clinical way, it is possible to cut through some of the narratives their suffering is based on and alleviate much, even sometimes all, of that suffering.

    But I have little doubt that in the context of abortion AND miscarriage that a pool of shared experience is invaluable to women AND men who have been through either and I do not share the concerns or doubts people have about either the intention or the utility of a thread solely on the subject of experience of it, rather than derailed into the moral opinion of it.


  • #278
    nozzferrahhtoo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,363 ✭✭✭nozzferrahhtoo


    suicide_circus wrote: »
    I know one girl who "took the boat". It's was both the right choice at the time and something she'll never get over...A horrible no win situation really.

    A lot of the stuff such girls and women have to "get over" is very real as the post from "Carry" shows. But a lot of it is just narrative too.

    From the judgements of others with no actual moral arguments, to the feeling of isolation that having committed some form of "taboo" act in secrecy...... we manufacture much more to "get over" than is actually necessary.

    And that is, I would hope, the purpose of a thread like this. To help cut through such things and let them get on with "getting over" the stuff that actually does matter.
    Carry wrote: »
    I apoligize to all the men who are not horrified about it.

    There are those of us who make it our business to be informed on it, horror or not. Every little helps I guess.

    I would say that horror itself is not a bad thing. NO emotion is every inherently good OR bad really. It is what you do with those emotions that defines you.

    So I would not judge men (or women) who are horrified by the contents of your experience. Hold back and wait to judge them based on what they then do with that horror.
    DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »
    It's something that a woman will have to live with on her conscience for the rest of her life.

    As above I hope that a thread like this one aims to assist in that. A lot of this goes into peoples "conscience" because some narrative around them tells them it should. There is enough judgement and narrative out there that such women left in isolation could not BUT judge and second guess themselves.

    Unpacking those narratives, and showing the experiences and thought processes and motivations of other girls and women who were in the same situation should.... one hopes.... go past letting such people forgive themselves to the point where they realize there is nothing for them to forgive in the first place.
    blarrah wrote: »
    Anyone who says that having an abortion doesn't bother them, it just comes across as a seriously suspect personality to me. Anyone who can do such a thing and just treat it like nothing is unhinged or something, in my opinion.

    Language is, very often, relative and imprecise alas.

    I doubt they mean that abortion is "literally" nothing to them. Depending on the timing and type it CAN be invasive, painful, full of side effects, and leave types of damage that never heal.

    And, unlike other forms of invasion it occurs in an area of the body that human narrative considers the most intimate and private.

    Not to mention the fear (and alas, sometimes direct experience of) the judgement and reactions of others before and after the fact.

    I doubt there are many that consider that "nothing" or even on the level of merely getting ones ears pierced or anything. I would suspect that by "nothing" they mean that relative to the levels of narrative and hand wringing that goes on about it, it was nothing to them.

    I doubt many (any?) of them literally meant it was "nothing" to them though. And sure "It was nothing" is a general vernacular turn of phrase that means to play down, not entirely dismiss, the relevance or level of something.
    Deleted User wrote: »
    The reason for this conflict is because there can be an element of showiness or "look at me" about it. Why the need to share? It is a deeply personal choice and one which I can't imagine is taken lightly. It's not a badge of honour for some people to wear.

    Maybe there "can" be, but are we seeing any evidence of it here? I see none yet. And as I read this thread sort of backwards from last post to first, I was hyper aware of seeking for it.

    Is it possible you are laying that narrative of "look at me" and "badge of honor" over their words on their behalf however? Perhaps their motivations and reasoning for sharing their experiences can be, and most often are, massively different to that though?

    Perhaps there are women who, for example, suffered because they did what they then felt was an uncommon, sordid, immoral, taboo and secretive act.

    Perhaps now............ with the power of retrospect in a modern time........ they feel they might be able to help OTHER women and girls in that situation by adding to the wealth of "me too" experiences out there in a way that they themselves did not have access to when they needed it?


  • #279
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,810 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    solodeogloria wrote: »
    The moderators have decided that this is a thread for pro-choice views only. I will respect that decision.

    No, the moderators have not said this anywhere. Don't be dishonest.

    This thread is to share your experience with abortion. Pro-life views are welcome.


  • #280
    Foweva Awone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Foweva Awone


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    You appear to contradict yourself here, philosophically at least, in that you first reason that there is no person's life being ended in the first trimester (an argument I can appreciate) but yet you then say that a woman should "always" have a choice. I mean, which is it... do you just endorse first trimester abortions, or do you believe a woman should be able to have an abortion whenever she wants?

    My own personal belief is that abortions should be freely available up until 12 weeks. Between 12-20 weeks, they should be available but perhaps with additional care and counselling for the woman, both before and afterwards, considering the additional physical and emotional burden that may be involved. (Statistically most abortions occur in the first trimester anyways.)

    From 20 weeks onwards, I don't think abortions should be a choice except in exceptional cases where the woman's health is at risk. I do believe that the woman's right to life is of greater importance than the survival of the pregnancy, right up until the birth, after which both the mother's and the baby's life are of equal importance.


  • #281
    rainbow kirby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,928 ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    How do you propose to deal with the cases where serious/fatal abnormalities are diagnosed at the anomaly scan at 18-22 weeks then? This is normally the time at which major structural defects are observed and it can take some time after that to confirm a diagnosis.


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  • #282
    noaddedsugar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 316 ✭✭noaddedsugar


    I had an abortion 13 years ago. It was the right decision for me. It is not something I ever think about except when the topic of abortion comes up, I feel no guilt and although I regret being in the position where I needed an abortion but I don't regret the actual abortion. I will never forget the sense of relief I felt as I walked out of the clinic.

    My husband(then boyfriend) feels no guilt about it either, as soon as the pregnancy test showed positive there was never any doubt in either of our minds about what we would do.

    I'm quite open about it when the topic of abortion comes up in real life and have been surprised by the amount of people, who once I mention I had one, tell me that they/their partner had one too. Before I had an abortion and started speaking of mine I didn't think I knew anyone else who had had one, people tend to keep it quiet as is their right and I don't blame them for it. I have had a few bad reactions when I have spoken about it but I am confident enough in my choices that I don't let it get to me.


  • #283
    Mr.H
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,861 ✭✭✭Mr.H


    volchitsa wrote:
    An abortion is a lot more bothersome and unpleasant than using contraception, even in the UK. At best it's like a miscarriage. Nobody would choose to do that every month instead of using contraception. I genuinely think there are always going to be reasons, possibly very sad reasons, for women who have multiple abortions.


    But that's my point.

    Firstly it is not a small thing having an abortion and I sympathise greatly with women who have gone through that trauma.

    All I am saying is instead of abortion on tap (I hate that expression but I guess it's most applicable), it should be a case by case basis. that way if there is an underlying issue we are going bot see it right away. If the hubby is abusive hopefully a professional will see that and get the woman help. Just allowing a person to have loads of abortions is not going to help her and could do her body damage.

    I really hope I don't sound like I'm against abortion because am not. I just think extra help needs to be given with it.

    I know a girl who had one in the UK and she said hey treated her like it was a haircut. They where lovely but she was in, done and out in no time. I mean these girls are going through a lot more than that.


  • #284
    Foweva Awone
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,740 ✭✭✭Foweva Awone


    rainbow kirby wrote: »
    How do you propose to deal with the cases where serious/fatal abnormalities are diagnosed at the anomaly scan at 18-22 weeks then? This is normally the time at which major structural defects are observed and it can take some time after that to confirm a diagnosis.

    To me, such a case would absolutely count as the woman's (mental) health being at risk - I can't imagine how awful it would be, to be forced against your will to carry a foetus knowing it was going to die. So yeah, I'd say that those are definitely exceptional circumstances where late abortions could be permissable (in the most humane way possible.)


  • #285
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 21,679 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    It wasn't my intention to offend anyone on here with my post. This is a topic which reminds me a little of a discussion about suicide. We are living breathing human beings who quickly become uneasy when death enters a debate. Here we have we have a procedure which with the exception of ffa cuts off the potential for life.

    Of course there are going to be plenty of people up in arms. My pro choice stance has always been based on the fact that it's not my business what another woman decides to do with her body. It's not for me to stand in judgement. I don't know the pain of such a decision. Who knows what my future holds.

    However I can't shake a feeling that's contradictory to the above. It has no explaination or logic. Only that underneath my pro choice stance and my belief in a woman's right to bodily autonomy is a niggle around life and what it means and when it begins.


  • #286
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    I've posted about this elsewhere but I have a brother in his late teens with severe autism. He needs round the clock supervision, he has no independence. He doesn't do anything "normal" kids his age do.
    He can't communicate very well because he is only semi verbal and lashes out in anger and frustration when he isn't understood. He has left marks on my mam on more than one occasion during these outbursts.
    He still has to be showered. He has to be put to bed. He is sporadically incontinent, if he is stressed or sad. He was various "ticks" or "stims", one is pinching himself when he's anxious. He will only eat white, even textured foods. No fruit or veg, no red meat.
    He is very particular and will only eat what my mam cooks, he will starve rather than eat anyone else's cooking. Restaurants are a no-go. Holidays are a no go, he gets too overstimulated and upset.
    My mam hasn't worked since he was born. My dad is gets very upset over him, he's a typical Irish man of his age in that he struggles with showing emotion and affection, and it breaks his heart seeing how he is.

    My parents are in their 50's now and they should be enjoying themselves a bit more now that we're all pretty much grown up. But he's very hard work. He obviously can't be left alone but there are only limited amount of relatives who are confident handling him. My parents have no life at all. They don't go anywhere or do anything.

    He's going to need to be cared for, for the rest of his life. And that's a very heavy cross to bear. My parents have never said anything about regrets, but I wouldn't blame them for not choosing the life they live. How could I?

    I can say, hand on heart that I don't think I would ever get an abortion (at this moment in time). However, I'm not so egocentric or superior that I feel I can make that decision for every woman in the country. That's what being pro choice is about.

    Different woman, different upbringing, different lifestyle, different circumstances. Continuing an unwanted pregnancy simply isn't a viable option for every single woman that falls pregnant in this country.

    By recognising the amount of variables that life throws at us, we are recognising the fact that we can't possibly come up with one rule to suit all situations. We need to trust and respect women to make these decisions for themselves and their circumstances.

    Thank you to those who have shared their stories despite the abuse they were given, the more people that speak out, the better. I have nothing but admiration and respect for anyone who has made the best decision for themselves and their families.


  • #287
    Hooks Golf Handicap
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 233 ✭✭Hooks Golf Handicap


    My wife, with whom I've had 4 kids had an abortion in her early 20's.
    Her mother is English so it was no bother going bag shopping in Liverpool for a few days.
    I was found it reassuring that there wouldn't be a seconds debate if any of our kids had shown an abnormality.
    I don't understand why any logical intelligent person in this day an age would proceed with a pregnancy which could leave to a life of hardship.


  • #288
    Fourier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    MrPudding wrote: »
    But here's the thing. I genuinely wish she had have taken them.
    ...
    I love my life, and I love my kids, I am glad to be alive and my mother is extremely proud of what i have achieved, and she would never, ever say she regretted having me. But I know her life would have been so much better and more fulfilling if she had taken those pills. And I would not have known anything about it, and that does not bother me.
    I'm genuinely interested in this, apologies if I misunderstood, I'm just curious philosophically.

    If presented with the choice (hypothetically) to reverse your (and by extension you children's) existence, you would take it to improve the quality of your mother's life?


  • #289
    Buford T. Justice XIX
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,633 ✭✭✭✭Buford T. Justice XIX


    I've spent a few days wondering whether to post here or not and after a bit of discussion with my OH decided to eventually. I will, of course, deny ever having posted here in future:)

    I was struggling with a particular subject in final year in college when I decided to ask one of the assigned post-grad mentors for help in getting to grips with the subject as she was doing her post-grad in this subject. Anyway, after a few tutoring sessions, I suddenly understood a particular concept and all the rest fell into place. I thanked her and would often have a chat with her when our paths crossed in college or socially afterwards.

    I eventually accepted an offer of a post-grad in the Dept she was studying in and we started a relationship later, nothing serious but enjoyable for as long as it would last. She was a few years older than me and was due to finish when she became pregnant, which was quite a shock to both of us. After much discussion we decided to have the child, with me accepting a job offer and her finishing her post-grad and deciding what to do afterwards.

    I arrived at her flat one morning to give her a lift into college and met the landlord at the door, telling me she had moved out the night before, with no telling me. I rang her home and her mother told me she decided to go to England to finish writing up her thesis and stay with family over there after having a termination.

    I was shocked, tbh, as she had vehemently argued in favour of keeping the child even though it would be extremely difficult for both of us. Her mother also told me she didn't want to hear from me again, which I accepted but with a heavy heart.

    Life moved on, I met my OH and married and we had a child and I would occasionally see my ex at conferences and just nod hello in passing and walk on, that was the limit of our contact to that point. One day, in the local town, I was walking out of a shop with the eldest lad, about 6 months old, in my arms when my ex and her mother walked past. I nodded hello and was walking away when she said, 'Your second?', smirked and walked away.

    This was the first time I had any indication that she had had anything other than a termination and I was in a daze for a good while afterwards. To this day, I have no idea whether I have an older child out there somewhere and no way of ever finding out unless they show up on my doorstep some day.

    I'm at an age and health now where succession planning is becoming important for my family but, tbh, I have no idea how many children to provide for. There is no formula or legislation out there to help us decide what to do so we made provision for a child that we don't know exists or not.

    I see the current rallying cry of 'My body, my choice!' and, while I agree, I also despair. The logical direction of that catch cry is a progression in removing all rights to children from men but, concurrently, assigning all the responsibilities for provision for any child being born to the father of that child. I don't think it's not overly unfair to say that assigning all the responsibilities and none of the rights to the father is tyranny. I may not have an older child at all or they may show up on my deathbed or afterwards and cause absolute pandemonium, I may never know:(

    I despair at what I perceive to be a continuing removal of a fathers rights to even know that his child exists and I cannot vote for that. There is no easy choice in the forthcoming referendum. Certainly, a woman should have a right to decide on having a child or not but there also has to be some consideration to the other parent also.

    Where to draw that line, I have no idea but probably around the point where both sides are equally incensed.

    Forgive me for the length of the post but it has been over 20 years being written. I'm not looking for sympathy or an argument here, just putting my experience forward as a reasonable, I hope, reason why I will be opposing the referendum.


  • #290
    MrPudding
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,779 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    Fourier wrote: »
    I'm genuinely interested in this, apologies if I misunderstood, I'm just curious philosophically.

    If presented with the choice (hypothetically) to reverse your (and by extension you children's) existence, you would take it to improve the quality of your mother's life?
    Interesting question. I guess it is really easy to say I wish she had taken the pills, when I know it is an impossibility (at least in this version of the universe :D). But at the same time, I think there is a difference between saying that I wish she had taken the pills on the one hand, and reversing things from where they are now. For the first, I simply would not know any different, I would be unaware. To reverse my and my children existence, now that we are aware, and my mother is obviously aware, is a very different thing.

    I am happy, philosophically and logically, that I can hold the position that I wish she had done it, at the time, but would not necessarily want to have it reversed (and neither would she, we have had these conversations in the past)

    MrP


  • #291
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    That's a horrible story Buford but in what way would maintaining the constitutional equivalence between the right to life of a foetus and the woman carrying it help? The 8th was in place when that happened by my reading. That story can still happen now, could still happen regardless of the outcome of the referendum.


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  • #292
    Hitman3000
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,596 ✭✭✭Hitman3000


    Buford T. Justice V wrote:
    This was the first time I had any indication that she had had anything other than a termination and I was in a daze for a good while afterwards. To this day, I have no idea whether I have an older child out there somewhere and no way of ever finding out unless they show up on my doorstep some day.


    Thanks for sharing. If your ex has kept the possible existence of a child from your relationship with her a secret, she is a nasty piece of work and I would hazard a guess that you dodged a bullet. As for the child itself I think you have a duty to find out if he/she exists for both of your sakes.


  • #293
    seamus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 68,190 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I see the current rallying cry of 'My body, my choice!' and, while I agree, I also despair. The logical direction of that catch cry is a progression in removing all rights to children from men
    I appreciate you sharing your story, but that doesn't logically follow.

    Woman having right of autonomy over their body doesn't logically follow that men will lose their rights over their children.


  • #294
    Carry
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,024 ✭✭✭Carry


    Thank you for your post, Buford. It's important to hear the other side, that is the involved male, without going all outraged and high-horsey.

    What your ex did wasn't fair, that is agreeing to have a child, then disappearing without a word and not letting you know if she gave birth or had a termination. I think every woman should at least discuss it with her partner. It's common decency.

    Though her remark ("your second one?") could as well mean "the second one you fathered" (which you did), not necessarily that it's alive. I would have understood it that way. Anyway, to make such a remark in the first place is downright snarky and mean, I guess just meant to hurt you.

    Maybe you try to ask her directly since you seem to bump into her occasionally? After 20 years she might have matured a bit.

    The question of fathers' rights is a completely different one. Isn't there a law that fathers who pay have rights? I'm not an expert in this regard. Should be another thread maybe?


  • #295
    Fourier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,558 ✭✭✭✭Fourier


    MrPudding wrote: »
    I am happy, philosophically and logically, that I can hold the position that I wish she had done it, at the time, but would not necessarily want to have it reversed (and neither would she, we have had these conversations in the past)
    Oh, absolutely there is nothing inconsistent. I mean you could phrase it as it would be the advice you'd give as an "objective third party" at the time. It's similar to stopping WWII, it "should have been stopped" at the time, but I don't know if I'd reverse it given the chance now.

    Also the morality of "migh-have-been"s makes my head hurt! So I've no dogmatic views on it, I'm just interested in the views of others, which you've politely provided. Cheers.


  • #296
    GritBiscuit
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 440 ✭✭GritBiscuit


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    I despair at what I perceive to be a continuing removal of a fathers rights to even know that his child exists and I cannot vote for that.

    That's a truly awful thing to have done to you and I'd be first in line to vote for the right of fathers to know they have become fathers - yet I'm still in favour of repealing the 8th. As sad and and angry as your post made me, it happened with the 8th in place. Refusing the rights of women to try to share the unfair around doesn't seem the best way to deal with either gender's inequality.

    Having all the responsibility and no rights with regards to impeding parenthood is no less tyrannical than the same situation foisted on men post-birth. The whole system needs a major over-haul and modernisation - and I don't see how that can ever be done without first repealing the 8th.


  • #297
    Outlaw Pete
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,423 ✭✭✭✭Outlaw Pete


    WhiteRoses wrote: »
    I've posted about this elsewhere but I have a brother in his late teens with severe autism. He needs round the clock supervision, he has no independence. He doesn't do anything "normal" kids his age do.
    He can't communicate very well because he is only semi verbal and lashes out in anger and frustration when he isn't understood. He has left marks on my mam on more than one occasion during these outbursts.
    He still has to be showered. He has to be put to bed. He is sporadically incontinent, if he is stressed or sad. He was various "ticks" or "stims", one is pinching himself when he's anxious. He will only eat white, even textured foods. No fruit or veg, no red meat.
    He is very particular and will only eat what my mam cooks, he will starve rather than eat anyone else's cooking. Restaurants are a no-go. Holidays are a no go, he gets too overstimulated and upset.
    My mam hasn't worked since he was born. My dad is gets very upset over him, he's a typical Irish man of his age in that he struggles with showing emotion and affection, and it breaks his heart seeing how he is.

    My parents are in their 50's now and they should be enjoying themselves a bit more now that we're all pretty much grown up. But he's very hard work. He obviously can't be left alone but there are only limited amount of relatives who are confident handling him. My parents have no life at all. They don't go anywhere or do anything.

    He's going to need to be cared for, for the rest of his life. And that's a very heavy cross to bear.

    I too have a sibling with severe autism (a sister) who growing up needed round the clock supervision, had no independence and didn't do anything which "normal" kids her age did. She would stim constantly. Almost zero eye contact and could be up for 72 hours straight. Between ages five to seven she would climb out and sit on window ledges as if they were a mere back door step and the first we would know of it was when we'd hear neighbours screaming and banging on our door. Was usually me that would tip toe to the window with my heart in mouth and try and grab her before she fell. She had no concept of danger. Stopped when she was seven as we had door handles installed at the top of eacn and every door in the house.

    When she turned 16 my parents had no option but to put her into care Mon to Fri at a facility that had over 3000 applications that year. To say they were lucky to get her placed was an understatement. My parents had split up a few years before that and so took turns taking her for weekends. Those weekends were as difficult. My father lived for those weekends nevertheless. Counting down the clock until she was home again each fortnight. He died just over ten years ago now and so I take her weekends. Not overnight too much, as I have health problems of my own.

    Would my parents life have been better had she not been born? I have no idea. Would it have been different? Sure. Would my life have been easier, would my other siblings have had more attention? Perhaps. Perhaps not. That's just the tapestry of life. Pull one thread and nobody can truly know for sure what would have, could have, been. But one thing's for sure, my sister wouldn't have had any life at all and mine would be a hell of lot less richer without her in it.
    My parents have never said anything about regrets, but I wouldn't blame them for not choosing the life they live.

    Well, my parents never said anything about regrets either but you say you wouldn't blame them for not choosing the life they live even so.... but how could they in the context of abortion anyway? There is no prenatal test for the condition, as I'm sure you're aware, and so therefore it would appear that you're suggesting that were such a test available, you would understand someone choosing to have abortions.

    Only last week on another thread I wrote (somewhat prophetically it would seem now):
    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    ....many are saying that the life of someone with Down Syndrome is difficult, for them and their families, which is true, it is, but many adults with autism have lives which can be even more difficult. So, are they next? Should it be okay to extinguish their lives as they are developing in the womb too?

    Well, I for one think not. If for no other reason than that advancements in the treatment and care of those with autism is improving all the time, same with Down Syndrome. A short while back I posted about how Keith Duffy's autistic daughter, Mia (who had no speech until she was 7) but who with specific treatment modalities has now exceeded all expectations. Of course, not everyone has access to ABA but they should and along with early diagnosis it can mean the difference between someone like my sister who at 39 is in the care of the state and someone like Mia who has went on to sit state exams.

    And of course we MUST make sure there is help there for parents who can't cope and need help caring for autistic children and adults, both in the short and long term. It's disgraceful that in Ireland an adult with Down Syndrome or Autism can end up in a mental institution on the death of a parent, which sadly is a regular occurrence. These are all things which could be addressed rapidly with the right funding.

    Either way though, whatever the difficulties involved, for those with autism and their carers, abortion is not the answer and I hope a day will never come when a prenatal test exists for the condition, as I feel such information would be just misused, as prenatal gender test is by some today.


  • #298
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,252 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    MrPudding wrote: »
    Meh. My mother got pregnant with me when she was 17. She was lucky that the parish priest where she lived was not a complete dick, and that her mother and father did not care about any "shame" she had brought on the family. So, the pregnancy continued and I was born. My biological father, when he found out she was pregnant, offered by mother some tablets which he told her would "make the problem go away." Obviously, she did not take them. But here's the thing. I genuinely wish she had have taken them.

    Her pregnancy and my birth ruined her life. She was in grammar school, and was doing very well and had a bright future ahead of her. Instead of that bright future she worked in Woolworths for about 21 year, followed by so other low paying retail job. In her late 50s she trained as a pharmacy dispenser, but still only earned just above minimum wage. Her life has been sh1t, and it is a direct result of having me when she was 18.

    I love my life, and I love my kids, I am glad to be alive and my mother is extremely proud of what i have achieved, and she would never, ever say she regretted having me. But I know her life would have been so much better and more fulfilling if she had taken those pills. And I would not have known anything about it, and that does not bother me.

    MrP

    This struck a chord with me as my mother was much the same.

    She had me when she was 17.. her mother wasn't at all happy about it (her father was ridiculously weak and so had no say) and my mother suffered very bad post-natal depression in a time when they signed you in for doing things as a result :( (only discovered most of this after her death 2 years back).

    My sister followed a few years later and then mam kicked our oul fella out for not doing his bit (as she told it anyway - he's dead since the mid-90s so we'll never know for sure), and for the next several years she struggled in low-paying jobs to support the 3 of us - ultimately moving abroad for a few years in the mid-80s.

    She then got sick and we came home and for the next 25 years her life was a combination of low income (she couldn't work anymore), tortured by scumbag neighbours, and a deteriorating illness that left her strapped to oxygen machines for the last few years, eventually dying at only 58.

    Mam was never what you'd call maternal anyway. She most certainly did her best to provide for us and under very difficult circumstances, but myself and my sister pretty much raised ourselves when we came back to Ireland. Of course, I can't exactly blame her for that given the illness but having kids was definitely the wrong move for her to be honest.


  • #299
    January
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,862 ✭✭✭✭January


    Buford T. Justice V wrote: »
    Forgive me for the length of the post but it has been over 20 years being written. I'm not looking for sympathy or an argument here, just putting my experience forward as a reasonable, I hope, reason why I will be opposing the referendum.

    There are of course avenues you could take if you really wanted to know if you had other offspring out there. Hiring a private investigator would be one.


  • #300
    SusieBlue
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,029 ✭✭✭SusieBlue


    Outlaw Pete wrote: »
    I too have a sibling with severe autism (a sister) who growing up needed round the clock supervision, had no independence and didn't do anything which "normal" kids her age did. She would stim constantly. Almost zero eye contact and could be up for 72 hours straight. Between ages five to seven she would climb out and sit on window ledges as if they were a mere back door step and the first we would know of it was when we'd hear neighbours screaming and banging on our door. Was usually me that would tip toe to the window with my heart in mouth and try and grab her before she fell. She had no concept of danger. Stopped when she was seven as we had door handles installed at the top of eacn and every door in the house.

    When she turned 16 my parents had no option but to put her into care Mon to Fri at a facility that had over 3000 applications that year. To say they were lucky to get her placed was an understatement. My parents had split up a few years before that and so took turns taking her for weekends. Those weekends were as difficult. My father lived for those weekends nevertheless. Counting down the clock until she was home again each fortnight. He died just over ten years ago now and so I take her weekends. Not overnight too much, as I have health problems of my own.

    Would my parents life have been better had she not been born? I have no idea. Would it have been different? Sure. Would my life have been easier, would my other siblings have had more attention? Perhaps. Perhaps not. That's just the tapestry of life. Pull one thread and nobody can truly know for sure what would have, could have, been. But one thing's for sure, my sister wouldn't have had any life at all and mine would be a hell of lot less richer without her in it.



    Well, my parents never said anything about regrets either but you say you wouldn't blame them for not choosing the life they live even so.... but how could they in the context of abortion anyway? There is no prenatal test for the condition, as I'm sure you're aware, and so therefore it would appear that you're suggesting that were such a test available, you would understand someone choosing to have abortions.

    Only last week on another thread I wrote (somewhat prophetically it would seem now):



    Well, I for one think not. If for no other reason than that advancements in the treatment and care of those with autism is improving all the time, same with Down Syndrome. A short while back I posted about how Keith Duffy's autistic daughter, Mia (who had no speech until she was 7) but who with specific treatment modalities has now exceeded all expectations. Of course, not everyone has access to ABA but they should and along with early diagnosis it can mean the difference between someone like my sister who at 39 is in the care of the state and someone like Mia who has went on to sit state exams.

    And of course we MUST make sure there is help there for parents who can't cope and need help caring for autistic children and adults, both in the short and long term. It's disgraceful that in Ireland an adult with Down Syndrome or Autism can end up in a mental institution on the death of a parent, which sadly is a regular occurrence. These are all things which could be addressed rapidly with the right funding.

    Either way though, whatever the difficulties involved, for those with autism and their carers, abortion is not the answer and I hope a day will never come when a prenatal test exists for the condition, as I feel such information would be just misused, as prenatal gender test is by some today.

    I know there are currently no prenatal tests to determine if the child is autistic in the womb.
    I suppose the point I was trying to make, was that if you take away the fact that his condition is autism and focus on the facts:
    He is going to stay in this childlike, underdeveloped state for the rest of his life, living with a severe disability and needing full time care with no independence and limited self awareness. Those are the facts.

    My parents and we as a family have adapted to life with him after making many sacrifices over the years. We love him to pieces and his innocence is a ray of sunshine.

    But my point is, not every parent is cut out for raising and caring for children with this condition. Children that will never grow up. I think that's what my dad struggles with most...Instead of bringing his youngest son for his first pint in a few months, he's still changing his nappies a few times a week.

    Ignoring the autism and focusing on the fact that he is disabled and will need to be cared for, for the rest of of his life..I wouldn't blame them for choosing abortion if it were possible.
    I know it isn't, so its null and void. But the point I was making was that not all parents are cut out to care for disabled kids. And that's why I feel so strongly about this. I see the pressure, the pain, the suffering, the sacrifices, that my family has made. And I appreciate that not all families would be able to make those. And I totally respect that.


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  • #301
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,019 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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