We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

Conor Bourke · 12-11-2017 12:56PM

shesty wrote: »

This would be why I said I was grey on it.I know there are plenty of reasons why people would want to abort.But equally I know that you can't legislate for them all.You either make it available for everyone up to X weeks or you don't.You can't say 'well if you can prove you can't support a child then you can have one, otherwise you can't".I don't actually care what type of sex people are having.I think at the bottom of it I don't think I agree for free for all abortion but I don't see how you can make it work in any other way.Like I said, it's a grey area for me.Not everybody is either pro or against the argument, plenty of people see shades of grey in it.But you can't say anything for fear of being villified.And I don't think a referendum can be phrased to accommodate the shades of grey, which then leads me to wonder would I vote?I don't actually know at this point.

I’m not trying to vilify you, just pointing out the flaw to your logic. It’s okay to be uncomfortable with abortion, the state will never force you to have one. That said, abortion “on demand” is not a thing. It’s not a subscription service. It’s abortion “as needed” or “when requested”. It is a medical procedure.

Trust women. Trust that when they make a decision to terminate their pregnancy, they know that it’s the right thing for them in their circumstances. Try not to apply your judgement of what you would do if you were in their shoes or punish what you perceive as their carelessness for getting themselves into the situation in the first place (referring again to your remark re: consequences)

dudara · 12-11-2017 01:01PM

shesty wrote: »

This would be why I said I was grey on it.I know there are plenty of reasons why people would want to abort.But equally I know that you can't legislate for them all.You either make it available for everyone up to X weeks or you don't.You can't say 'well if you can prove you can't support a child then you can have one, otherwise you can't".I don't actually care what type of sex people are having.I think at the bottom of it I don't think I agree for free for all abortion but I don't see how you can make it work in any other way.Like I said, it's a grey area for me.Not everybody is either pro or against the argument, plenty of people see shades of grey in it.But you can't say anything for fear of being villified.And I don't think a referendum can be phrased to accommodate the shades of grey, which then leads me to wonder would I vote?I don't actually know at this point.

I have had rather similar arguments in my own head and with others. I think we will have to either go all in or all out. Any other type of solution will be half-arsed. In my case, even though I have my dislikes, I'm going to support making choice available. If I don't support that, then I'm denying others their choice.

solodeogloria · 12-11-2017 02:04PM

Good afternoon!

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Your whole argument is based on the concept of an "unborn child" - metaphysics

Sorry - it isn't metaphysics, it's biological fact. From conception a human life is formed and it grows and develops to birth. After birth the baby grows and develops to be a toddler, and after being a toddler to a child, and after a child to be an adult, and eventually to natural death.

You can try fob that away by claiming it is metaphysics, but there's nothing essentially metaphysical or religious about this position. This is why there are atheists who are pro-life.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

But regardless, why do you feel you have the right to make that decision for someone else, especially when you won't be dealing with the consequences either way. It also naively assumes that "it'll all be grand" if someone goes through with a pregnancy they don't want.

Decisions have limits in so far as they affect others. You can continue to deny that from conception there is an unborn child in the womb as much as you like, but I'm not buying it. Abortion kills. It makes an executive decision about whether someone else lives or dies. Morality isn't relative.

As for undesired pregnancy - there are options where the child can have a new home. Killing the child isn't the answer, nor does it give the child the opportunity to have a full life.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

What this referendum should really ask is "do we want to continue to force women who have made the choice to get an abortion - for whatever reason - to have to go to the UK to get it?"

The referendum is a political matter. Irrespective of whether people vote for X, Y or Z it doesn't make it morally right to do so. Personally, I'm not posting here because of the referendum. I'm just amazed at the intellectual knots that people go to to declare what is wrong to be right.

_Kaiser_ wrote: »

Because ultimately that's what it is. Even if things here remain unchanged, it's still going to happen anyway

Maybe a better question then is:

"Do we want to give Irish women the support and care they should be automatically entitled to as citizens of this country if they make this decision"

Yes, and no. Sure, some Irish women have abortions, but significantly less than in Wales which has a lower population than Ireland, but has abortion-by-choice. If the legislation lowers the number of abortions that happen in Ireland as relative to jurisdictions that have abortion-by-choice then I consider that a good law because lives are saved through it.

The claim that it has no affect isn't true.

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I personally detest any argument against abortion that uses the word 'consequences'. They usually read like sex is a bad thing and probably should be punished

Nobody is saying "sex is bad". Of course it is right in the right circumstances. It is wrong in other circumstances. Everyone would agree with this to a degree. For example, unconsented sexual activity is very very bad. This is an empty caricature that pro-choice advocates like to use in response to a consider pro-life position.

What's interesting about this post however is that you are implying that conjugal rights are more important than the right to life. That's where I unreservedly disagree with you. It certainly isn't.

Of course the right approach is to ensure that if we take risks that we are willing to take care of what may arise as a result of said risks. I will never be able to say that I consider killing a reasonable response to this. I know that's pretty blunt, but clear and serious matters demand a blunt response sometimes.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

scarepanda · 12-11-2017 02:09PM

Shesty, I agree with an awful lot in your post. Your right in that that it's not a black and white situation and that most people are somewhere in the shades of grey. Your also right in that not every situation can be legislated for. I would say I'm very pro choice, but there is one situation with 'abortion on demand' that I would be slightly grey on. But I'm not actually sure how often the situation would arise.

However, I believe that ' abortion on demand' should be allowed up to a certain point, and after that for health reasons. I believe that every woman in this country should have the right to choose what is best for them and their life. I also believe that there should be appropriate support before, during and after the procedure. I believe that this will help everyone make the best, most informed decision for their particular situation, and may be reduce the number of people who may regret their decision further down the road as is the case of a previous poster.

The debate around this topic always gets side tracked and goes down the you Vs me road about whos right or wrong about abortion, when the 8th amendment is about so much more than just abortion. People forget about the consequences it has on womens rights to informed consent on medical procedures. It also restricts how medical professionals treat pregnant women. Yes, it's supposed to give equal rights to the unborn child, but how the hell can an unborn child have equal rights to a born living woman before the pregnancy is viable (before 24 weeks)? In my opinion, the 8th amendment allows the unborn child have more rights than its mother by virtue of not choosing the mother's life over the baby, who is not at survivable gestational age.

In the case of FFA, no one has the right to dictate to a woman that she should carry a pregnancy to term and give birth to a baby who, if they survive labour, will most probably have a short and painful life. Most people will never have to endure that turmoil, and I don't think it's something you can have a strong black or white opinion on until/unless you have been in that situation.

And in the case of rape or incest, again I don't believe that woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against her will for something she had absolutely no choice in.

For what it's worth, I'm a woman and a mother to a beautiful little girl that I would give my life for. Iv, thankfully, never been in the position of having to consider termination of a pregnancy for whatever reason. And I honestly couldn't say what decision I would make if I found myself in a situation of having to make that decision. However I firmly believe that I should have absolute rights over my body and what does and doesn't happen to it. At the end of the day, repealing the 8th gives women choices and for those that wouldn't choose an abortion, it doesn't really affect your choice or personal beliefs. But that choice could save another woman's life.

12-11-2017 02:18PM

Nicolas Cage wrote: »

I personally detest any argument against abortion that uses the word 'consequences'. They usually read like sex is a bad thing and probably should be punished

Yes. They may as well say people in car crashes should get no medical treatment as they took the risk of driving and should bear the consequences.

Not having a child you do not want and/or cannot care for is exactly taking responsibility. It is very odd to see the juxtaposition of 'it's a human life and therefore sacred/special/important' with 'it's just a consequence and a punishment you should bear for having sex.'

seamus · 12-11-2017 02:30PM

What I find the most interesting are people who oppose abortion in general, but at the same time do not think less of someone who has had one.

I've seen a lot of it, especially in the older generation. Woman who would vote against abortion as a concept and would say they consider it murder.

But the same women wouldn't even blink if you told them you'd had an abortion, and will recount tales of friends and family who made the trip, whom they don't think any less of.

I think many opponents are against abortion as a concept, an abstract; that is, when it affects someone else.

Outlaw Pete · 12-11-2017 02:37PM

Foweva Awone wrote: »

I had an early abortion in Holles Street as it was an unviable pregnancy that would have endangered my life, if allowed to continue.

Excellent that that was available to you. So, Ireland does care for women more than, or as much as, they do cattle... only some would have us believe differently.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=571vnkdrWC0

https://twitter.com/oneilllo/status/838749538596884480

A pregnancy in the early stages (i.e. first trimester) is just a theoretical concept - it is not a person. At that stage, society's responsibility is to the woman who's actually carrying the embryo - to her health, to her physical and mental wellbeing. Carrying a pregnancy to term and giving birth to a baby is a life-altering experience and one that a woman should always have a choice in.

You appear to contradict yourself here, philosophically at least, in that you first reason that there is no person's life being ended in the first trimester (an argument I can appreciate) but yet you then say that a woman should "always" have a choice. I mean, which is it... do you just endorse first trimester abortions, or do you believe a woman should be able to have an abortion whenever she wants?

Odhinn · 12-11-2017 02:48PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Yes, and no. Sure, some Irish women have abortions, but significantly less than in Wales which has a lower population than Ireland, but has abortion-by-choice. If the legislation lowers the number of abortions that happen in Ireland as relative to jurisdictions that have abortion-by-choice then I consider that a good law because lives are saved through it.

....the legislation "lowers the number of abortions" by making them largely illegal. This causes irish women to go abroad, to Britain and elsewhere. All you're doing is exporting the problem, which has serious effects on those who go.

GritBiscuit · 12-11-2017 02:49PM

seamus wrote: »

What I find the most interesting are people who oppose abortion in general, but at the same time do not think less of someone who has had one.

Ah yes, the "not my neighbour/not my neighbourhood" brigade - a whole new weird kind of nimby-ism...hand in hand with those who throw around accusations of "baby murdering" but are happy - even voted for - women to have the right to information and the right to travel. Bizarre. Surely if you consider an abortion so heinous that you think of it as murdering a baby then you should be campaigning vocally and tirelessly for every pregnant woman/girl attempting to source an abortion, irrespective of circumstance, to be arrested on the spot and the keys thrown away...

_Dara_ · 12-11-2017 03:00PM

seamus wrote: »

What I find the most interesting are people who oppose abortion in general, but at the same time do not think less of someone who has had one.

I've seen a lot of it, especially in the older generation. Woman who would vote against abortion as a concept and would say they consider it murder.

But the same women wouldn't even blink if you told them you'd had an abortion, and will recount tales of friends and family who made the trip, whom they don't think any less of.

I think many opponents are against abortion as a concept, an abstract; that is, when it affects someone else.

I’d wager that everyone here knows a woman who has had an abortion. They might not be aware of the fact but they likely do. Or multiple women. And they may even like that woman. When you don’t explicitly know someone who has had an abortion, it’s much easier to put devil horns on them. It’s much harder to do that when it’s someone you’ve assessed as a decent person.

solodeogloria · 12-11-2017 03:00PM

Odhinn wrote: »

....the legislation "lowers the number of abortions" by making them largely illegal. This causes irish women to go abroad, to Britain and elsewhere. All you're doing is exporting the problem, which has serious effects on those who go.

Good afternoon!

The figures I am using are the numbers of Irish women having abortions in other jurisdictions. That figure is half compared to the number of abortions in Wales which has a population of 3 million.

That's a good outcome from my standpoint.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Graham · 12-11-2017 03:08PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

The figures I am using are the numbers of Irish women having abortions in other jurisdictions. That figure is half compared to the number of abortions in Wales which has a population of 3 million.

That's a good outcome from my standpoint.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

I'm not entirely convinced that forced parenthood is something a country should be particularly proud of.

12-11-2017 03:10PM

I am pro choice because I believe that nobody has the right to tell another person what to do with their body, and for a few other reasons. However I'm torn about people talking openly about their abortion experiences.
The reason for this conflict is because there can be an element of showiness or "look at me" about it. Why the need to share? It is a deeply personal choice and one which I can't imagine is taken lightly. It's not a badge of honour for some people to wear.

Odhinn · 12-11-2017 03:11PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

The figures I am using are the numbers of Irish women having abortions in other jurisdictions. That figure is half compared to the number of abortions in Wales which has a population of 3 million.

That's a good outcome from my standpoint.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

The figures are an estimate, and don't cover irish women having illegal terminations here. Nor do they take into account the extra strain to the women who do travel.

Graham · 12-11-2017 03:17PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I am pro choice because I believe that nobody has the right to tell another person what to do with their body, and for a few other reasons. However I'm torn about people talking openly about their abortion experiences.
The reason for this conflict is because there can be an element of showiness or "look at me" about it. Why the need to share? It is a deeply personal choice and one which I can't imagine is taken lightly. It's not a badge of honour for some people to wear.

I didn't get 'showiness' from any of the posts.

I think it's quite brave that so many people are sharing their experiences from a first-hand point of view rather than just the usual preaching from both sides.

12-11-2017 03:32PM

Graham wrote: »

I didn't get 'showiness' from any of the posts.

I think it's quite brave that so many people are sharing their experiences from a first-hand point of view rather than just the usual preaching from both sides.

It is brave to put yourself out there and talk about difficult experience of abortion yet there is a part of me that finds it a little off. I have yet to figure out why that is.

solodeogloria · 12-11-2017 03:32PM

Graham wrote: »

I'm not entirely convinced that forced parenthood is something a country should be particularly proud of.

Good afternoon!

I'm not convinced that voluntary execution (which is essentially what abortion-by-choice is) is something a country should be proud of.

We can go round and round in circles with this. The moral underpinnings of the pro-choice argument are weak and unconvincing. That's why it's a battle the convince the public of its alleged virtues.

Situations where terminations are necessary for medical reasons (such as saving lives) are different to the elective right to condemn a child to death by a choice. That's what we're talking about here. We can dress it up in whatever way we like - but the truth is the truth.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

12-11-2017 03:38PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm not convinced that voluntary execution (which is essentially what abortion-by-choice is) is something a country should be proud of.

We can go round and round in circles with this. The moral underpinnings of the pro-choice argument are weak and unconvincing. That's why it's a battle the convince the public of its alleged virtues.

Situations where terminations are necessary for medical reasons (such as saving lives) are different to the elective right to condemn a child to death by a choice. That's what we're talking about here. We can dress it up in whatever way we like - but the truth is the truth.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

'The truth is the truth - I'm just right and you're just wrong' - is not an effective argument in any debate, and reducing a long term debate like this one into such nonsense will get nobody anywhere

Graham · 12-11-2017 03:40PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!

I'm not convinced that voluntary execution (which is essentially what abortion-by-choice is) is something a country should be proud of.

We can go round and round in circles with this. The moral underpinnings of the pro-choice argument are weak and unconvincing. That's why it's a battle the convince the public of its alleged virtues.

Situations where terminations are necessary for medical reasons (such as saving lives) are different to the elective right to condemn a child to death by a choice. That's what we're talking about here. We can dress it up in whatever way we like - but the truth is the truth.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

While I absolutely respect your right to hold such an opinion, I don't agree that you (or anyone else) should be able to force your opinion/decisions on anybody else.

Many thanks

solodeogloria · 12-11-2017 03:50PM

bluewolf wrote: »

'The truth is the truth - I'm just right and you're just wrong' - is not an effective argument in any debate, and reducing a long term debate like this one into such nonsense will get nobody anywhere

Good afternoon!

There are plenty of issues in life that I would give way on.

There are other issues in life which are irreconcilable. That tension will be held indefinitely. It needs to be understood, there is no possible forward path for those who disagree on this issue. Life and death issues aren't really something I'm inclined to give way on because the right to life isn't dispensable.

Others might disagree, but I'm of the mind that there have to be fundamental limits to our choices. The limits come where it is at fundamental odds with the rights of others.

Graham wrote: »

While I absolutely respect your right to hold such an opinion, I don't agree that you (or anyone else) should be able to force your opinion/decisions on anybody else.

Many thanks

I don't think anyone has the right to force death on another. That's what this issue is about when push comes to shove. If it wasn't I'd happily give way on it, but it is a bridge too far.

That's at the crux of this issue.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Mr.H · 12-11-2017 03:52PM

I have no problem with abortion. It should be an option. What I don't like is the fact that some people can actually say "I had two abortion and I know someone who had three". I mean FFS that's ridiculous. You realise this is not a haircut but a very invasive procedure?

I'd like to think I am pro choice but stories like that worry me about the maturity of some.

Abortion needs to be available but I don't think it should be on tap. People need to take some responsibility. Don't have unprotected sex and you won't get pregnant.

Obviously I am not talking about extreme cases and this is the reason I said it needs to be available.

Should it be there for extreme cases? Yes

@ no

Mr.H · 12-11-2017 03:54PM

Graham wrote:

I'm not entirely convinced that forced parenthood is something a country should be particularly proud of.

There are loads of contraceptive options

Toastytoes · 12-11-2017 03:56PM

solodeogloria wrote: »

I don't think anyone has the right to force death on another. That's what this issue is about when push comes to shove. If it wasn't I'd happily give way on it, but it is a bridge too far.

That's at the crux of this issue.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Tell that to the family of Savita who had death forced upon her as a result of the 8th and it’s implications for the management of her miscarriage.

Ave Sodalis · 12-11-2017 03:57PM

Mr.H wrote: »

Don't have unprotected sex and you won't get pregnant.

Unfortunately, this isn't entirely true. Even when used correctly, contraception can still fail.

Hitman3000 · 12-11-2017 03:57PM

Mr.H wrote:

There are loads of contraceptive options

Which can fail.

solodeogloria · 12-11-2017 04:00PM

Toastytoes wrote: »

Tell that to the family of Savita who had death forced upon her as a result of the 8th and it’s implications for the management of her miscarriage.

Good afternoon!

If you had read my posts so far I've clearly distinguished between a termination that happens in a life or death issue to save a life and one that is carried out as a matter of choice.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Hitman3000 · 12-11-2017 04:02PM

solodeogloria wrote:

If you had read my posts so far I've clearly distinguished between a termination that happens in a life or death issue to save a life and one that is carried out as a matter of choice.

So your issue is a woman having a choice over her own body?

solodeogloria · 12-11-2017 04:06PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

So your issue is a woman having a choice over her own body?

Good afternoon!

No - over the death of the child that results from said decision. There are two bodies involved. This is what the pro-choice side of this argument never wants to engage with.

If it were merely a decision about a woman's body I'd happily have given way a long time ago on this issue.

Much thanks,
solodeogloria

Hitman3000 · 12-11-2017 04:11PM

solodeogloria wrote:

No - over the death of the child that results from said decision. There are two bodies involved. This is what the pro-choice side of this argument never wants to engage with.

The woman's body to my mind takes precedence much to the dislike of the anti choice brigade. A foetus has no superior rights to the woman. Her body her choice. You can use all the emotive words you wish ie murder/killing execution lessens your argument tbh. My vote when the time comes will firmly side with a woman's choice to her own bodies integrity.

LadyMacBeth_ · 12-11-2017 04:15PM

I think it's a good thing to have a place for women and men to discuss their experiences of abortion, rather than the usual threads we have here that go around in the same circles, there has been some of that of course, but some people just can't be respectful and leave the conversation alone. I'm pro choice, and I believe in abortion on demand up to 12 weeks and in the case of ffa or risk to the woman then I think later abortions are necessary. Good on the women who have spoken about their abortions here on the thread, it can't be an easy thing to discuss when you do have people out there that demonise you. I haven't had one myself so I have no idea what it's like and I don't presume to know.

I have a genetic illness that can now be tested for in pregnancy, it's Cystic Fibrosis, it can only be tested for if the parents are aware that they are carriers. I was born in 1988 and CF genes only began to be discovered in 1989 so this wasn't an option for my parents, nor did they know they were carriers. I was diagnosed at the age of 14 which is quite old for people with CF, usually it is discovered as babies or toddlers. My mother has never coped very well with my illness, usually she is in complete denial and doesn't really seem to be able to acknowledge it. I've done all of my own research and treatment since I found out, she helped a bit when I was younger but she has always referred to me as a strain or a burden, which hasn't been easy to hear. I asked her once if she would have aborted me had she known, and she said she didn't know. I think she would have, and in fairness to her, I wouldn't blame her at all for that decision, I know exactly why she would have made it and I understand. I don't think she is cut out to have an ill child and I don't think she ever was, and I wouldn't have known the difference.

We’ve had abortions!/We haven't had abortions!

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