Are wages that bad ?

wally1990 · 13-11-2017 10:09PM #1

I'm looking online (just kind of messing about ) and so many jobs paying just 20,000 to 28,000 etc .

I'm on 37k annually on 37.5 week (excluding breaks) but I wonder whilst I am 'slightly above the average' is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

RedXIV · 13-11-2017 11:50PM

wally1990 wrote: »

I'm looking online (just kind of messing about ) and so many jobs paying just 20,000 to 28,000 etc .

I'm on 37k annually on 37.5 week (excluding breaks) but I wonder whilst I am 'slightly above the average' is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

You'll find the jobs with "competitive salary" tend to typically higher. Rather than looking at current job openings, look at salary surveys to get an idea of actual wages

Greybottle · 13-11-2017 11:54PM

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

_Brian · 13-11-2017 11:56PM

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

€29k, really, does that include part time wages or is that figure just across full timers ?

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:06AM

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

2016 mean earnings for all workers = 36,919

2016 mean earnings for full-time workers = 45,611

Note earnings here include any overtime and irregular earnings

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2016/

Yes, median is better, but not published by CSO.

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:08AM

Here is some data on hourly earnings in 2016:

See table 8.

mean = 22.04

In industry = 22.41

In ICT = 29.74

endacl · 14-11-2017 12:11AM

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

Some people have to live on 29K a month?!?

:eek:

*drops monocle into glass of fine port*

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:12AM

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

Here is some data on median earnings, from Eurostat.

It's from the Structure of Earnings Survey 2014.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/data/database

Mean hourly earnings = 24.55 in firms with 10+ workers

Mean annual earnings = 48,598

Median annual earnings = 41,829.

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:15AM

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

I think you mean the "median earnings".

Yes, median is better than the mean.

The mean 2016 earnings were 45,611.

Median earnings are lower, at 41,829 in 2014.

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:16AM

Median gross hourly earnings, all employees (excluding apprentices), 2014

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Wages_and_labour_costs

Median_gross_hourly_earnings%2C_all_employees_%28excluding_apprentices%29%2C_2014_YB17.png

Median_gross_hourly_earnings%2C_all_employees_%28excluding_apprentices%29%2C_2014_YB17.png

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:21AM

Mean hourly earnings = 22.04 in 2016.

Median hourly earnings = 20.16 ph.

Source is Eurostat SES 2014.

This is a better figure than the mean, more realistic, not skewed by outliers.

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:22AM

wally1990 wrote: »

I'm looking online (just kind of messing about ) and so many jobs paying just 20,000 to 28,000 etc .

I'm on 37k annually on 37.5 week (excluding breaks) but I wonder whilst I am 'slightly above the average' is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

Your earnings are below the average.

The average is 45,611.

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:23AM

wally1990 wrote: »

is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

enricoh · 14-11-2017 12:31AM

Geuze wrote: »

Median gross hourly earnings, all employees (excluding apprentices), 2014

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Wages_and_labour_costs

So ireland has the second highest wages in the eu? Wow, lets hope the corporation tax rate never changes or we'll be a very high cost nation to do business in

Geuze · 14-11-2017 12:38AM

enricoh wrote: »

So ireland has the second highest wages in the eu? Wow, lets hope the corporation tax rate never changes or we'll be a very high cost nation to do business in

Gross earnings ph are second highest in Euro terms, yes.
But our labour costs are not second highest.

This is beside employer PRSI is low here.

Nermal · 14-11-2017 11:12AM

Geuze wrote: »

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

The CAI figure is just from an email survey. A bit self-selecting!

Surveys put out by recruiters are generally a bit inflated too - it's in their interest to get you to move.

JustAThought · 14-11-2017 12:10PM

Nermal wrote: »

The CAI figure is just from an email survey. A bit self-selecting!

Surveys put out by recruiters are generally a bit inflated too - it's in their interest to get you to move.

I think you'll find that at the lesser end most wages are mean.

Those employee surveys are often done face to face by CSO officers - I was part of one - and most people dont want to admit their parltry wages. Ditto with the recruitment consultant surveys - the more you say you earn the greater the jump up to your new salary will be in your new job they find for you.

I'd like to see a survey done on how people strategically keep their salaries delibaratey below a certain level and decline overtime to be able to qualify and avail of the free schoolbus service, the FIS and other allowances - as many people now do, and as many employers now openly state and use to negotiate when hiring.

I had a very well paid job with a big multinational a few years back but when I calculated the hours I worked and the number of full day Saturdays and occasional Sundays I was expected to work and all the conference calls I had to participate in from home at 8 or 10pm to fit in with American office needs, I worked out that averaging my hours out over the year I was only getting paid minimun hourly wage but taking a huge amount of pressure and had no family life or personal time. Some private company salaries sound good only on paper. Of course in the public service there is no comparison - nor do the surveys factor in the incredible benefit of an index linked pension for life and gilden handshake when you retire - on the back of pruvate sector taxes and effort of course.

ligerdub · 14-11-2017 12:24PM

Geuze wrote:

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Geuze wrote:

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

Can we stop using the chartered accountants stat? It's the most unreliable salary stat out there.

14-11-2017 01:59PM

ligerdub wrote: »

Can we stop using the chartered accountants stat? It's the most unreliable salary stat out there.

Is it true that those are their wages? If so I’m in!!

Kournikova · 14-11-2017 03:21PM

enricoh wrote: »

So ireland has the second highest wages in the eu? Wow, lets hope the corporation tax rate never changes or we'll be a very high cost nation to do business in

The cost of living is also high here so wages may be high but its certainly not affordable to live in, particularly Dublin.

witchgirl26 · 14-11-2017 04:46PM

Also be aware that online advertisements for jobs, a lot won't actually list a salary as they will base off candidates current salaries for offer. None of the jobs I went for when I interviewed last year were advertised with a salary. One of the best ways to get an idea is looking at salary survey reports that are put out. It shows a cross section usually of different jobs, levels and locations.

Examples: https://www.morganmckinley.ie/salary-survey

http://www.sigmarrecruitment.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sigmar-Recruitment-Salary-Guide-2017.pdf

https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/2016/brightwater-salary-survey-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=2

bobbysands81 · 14-11-2017 05:21PM

JustAThought wrote: »

I think you'll find that at the lesser end most wages are mean.

Those employee surveys are often done face to face by CSO officers - I was part of one - and most people dont want to admit their parltry wages. Ditto with the recruitment consultant surveys - the more you say you earn the greater the jump up to your new salary will be in your new job they find for you.

I'd like to see a survey done on how people strategically keep their salaries delibaratey below a certain level and decline overtime to be able to qualify and avail of the free schoolbus service, the FIS and other allowances - as many people now do, and as many employers now openly state and use to negotiate when hiring.

I had a very well paid job with a big multinational a few years back but when I calculated the hours I worked and the number of full day Saturdays and occasional Sundays I was expected to work and all the conference calls I had to participate in from home at 8 or 10pm to fit in with American office needs, I worked out that averaging my hours out over the year I was only getting paid minimun hourly wage but taking a huge amount of pressure and had no family life or personal time. Some private company salaries sound good only on paper. Of course in the public service there is no comparison - nor do the surveys factor in the incredible benefit of an index linked pension for life and gilden handshake when you retire - on the back of pruvate sector taxes and effort of course.

You were doing so well until the last couple of sentences.

I presume your new job is writing for the Indo?

ThumbTaxed · 14-11-2017 09:33PM

Geuze wrote: »

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

I know at least 20 chartered accountants and none are even at 75% at that. Most at 45k to 55k, some at 60k. Rubbish stat

Funny how? · 14-11-2017 09:52PM

Look at hotel employes, supermarket employees, bar workers, factor workers and all the rest in minimum wage jobs.
I'm 29 and on 40k and none of my friends are anywhere near that where I live, even in dublin most are on 35k to 40k and I work in I.T. along with them

The wages go up significantly after 15 years experience.

Avatar MIA · 14-11-2017 10:06PM

ligerdub wrote: »

Can we stop using the chartered accountants stat? It's the most unreliable salary stat out there.

This is up there with de Beers 3 months salary for an engagement ring. If you say it often enough people will believe it.

It's based on a self selecting response and no verification (AFAIK). Similar to above I know a good few CA and none are on that. I don't know any practice partners that probably skew it, but not to the extent of €109k average.

I've also spoken to management level recruitment companies and they said it's not representative.

Geuze · 15-11-2017 11:58AM

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I know at least 20 chartered accountants and none are even at 75% at that. Most at 45k to 55k, some at 60k. Rubbish stat

I'm only reported the salary survey, not defending it.

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/docs/default-source/dept-district-societies/leinster-district-society/salary-survey/leinster-society-salary-survey-2017-report-final-28-06-17.pdf?sfvrsn=8

Note that it is only Leinster, and it's only chartered accountants.

The 106,500 figure is not the basic salary, it includes car allowance and bonus.

And of course it may be skewed by senior people in Big4 firms.

Have a read of it yourself.

witchgirl26 · 15-11-2017 12:09PM

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I know at least 20 chartered accountants and none are even at 75% at that. Most at 45k to 55k, some at 60k. Rubbish stat

Are they fully qualified though? And how long for. Those things make a difference. I'm 8 years qualified and no-where near that figure but I am above what you've mentioned. It's more on experience that I've got to that level though and when you see that some of the respondents in that survey have been qualified since the mid-80's then you could understand that they've built up quite a level where they could look for salaries like that.

Geuze wrote: »

I'm only reported the salary survey, not defending it.

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/docs/default-source/dept-district-societies/leinster-district-society/salary-survey/leinster-society-salary-survey-2017-report-final-28-06-17.pdf?sfvrsn=8

Note that it is only Leinster, and it's only chartered accountants.

The 106,500 figure is not the basic salary, it includes car allowance and bonus.

And of course it may be skewed by senior people in Big4 firms.

Have a read of it yourself.

If you look at page 8 of it, it gives the breakdown between titles, areas of employment etc and for non big 4 seniors are on approx €51. The €106k is a bit of headline grabber but the reality, like Geuze says, is in the detail of the report. Also it is a general thing that the wages are higher in Leinster as cost of living is higher. Firms down in other areas would not necessarily have to pay as high a wage.

ThumbTaxed · 23-11-2017 10:44AM

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Are they fully qualified though? And how long for. Those things make a difference. I'm 8 years qualified and no-where near that figure but I am above what you've mentioned. It's more on experience that I've got to that level though and when you see that some of the respondents in that survey have been qualified since the mid-80's then you could understand that they've built up quite a level where they could look for salaries like that.

If you look at page 8 of it, it gives the breakdown between titles, areas of employment etc and for non big 4 seniors are on approx €51. The €106k is a bit of headline grabber but the reality, like Geuze says, is in the detail of the report. Also it is a general thing that the wages are higher in Leinster as cost of living is higher. Firms down in other areas would not necessarily have to pay as high a wage.

All qualified with around 10 years experience. I would say in the city I am from only a select few are on over 100k in wages, never mind it being an average. It doesn't make sense. My boss, a tax partner on salary is on 80k and the firm has over 1,000 clients...ie it is not a small firm.

Some sole trader accountants wouldn't even male 100k profit with 30 years experience.

It doesn't make sense

ThumbTaxed · 23-11-2017 10:47AM

...being ACA is not what it used to be. Not unusual ACA qualified moving to civil service for starting salary of 28k. Why would they do that if they feel they could get over 100k if it was that this amount was the average salary?

I know a whole accounts team in a PlC with 30m turnover and highest earner in accounts is 75k. She leads a team of 6. The finance director earns more than that, double, but that is one of over 1,000 staff

Avatar MIA · 23-11-2017 03:00PM

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

...being ACA is not what it used to be. Not unusual ACA qualified moving to civil service for starting salary of 28k. Why would they do that if they feel they could get over 100k if it was that this amount was the average salary?

I know a whole accounts team in a PlC with 30m turnover and highest earner in accounts is 75k. She leads a team of 6. The finance director earns more than that, double, but that is one of over 1,000 staff

I don't blame the CAI, but the gullible journalists that regurgitate it as fact. Just because KPMG supervise the lotto doesn't mean what comes out of CAI house needs to be taken as gospel.

Cuddlesworth · 23-11-2017 10:10PM

The big 4 take on a huge number of trainees every year, give them huge amounts of training, work them to the bone outside of the training, pay them next to nothing(and charge a lot more then that) and dump the vast majority of them after the 4 years end. I can't see a easy 100k a year once qualified, when those 4 company's alone spit out over 1 thousand qualified accountants a year into the market. Some of them maybe, but you could spot them from a mile away, they would always do well no matter the job.

Are wages that bad ?

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