Are wages that bad ?

wally1990

I'm looking online (just kind of messing about ) and so many jobs paying just 20,000 to 28,000 etc .

I'm on 37k annually on 37.5 week (excluding breaks) but I wonder whilst I am 'slightly above the average' is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

RedXIV

wally1990 wrote: »

I'm looking online (just kind of messing about ) and so many jobs paying just 20,000 to 28,000 etc .

I'm on 37k annually on 37.5 week (excluding breaks) but I wonder whilst I am 'slightly above the average' is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

You'll find the jobs with "competitive salary" tend to typically higher. Rather than looking at current job openings, look at salary surveys to get an idea of actual wages

Greybottle

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

_Brian

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

€29k, really, does that include part time wages or is that figure just across full timers ?

Geuze

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

2016 mean earnings for all workers = 36,919

2016 mean earnings for full-time workers = 45,611

Note earnings here include any overtime and irregular earnings

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elca/earningsandlabourcostsannualdata2016/

Yes, median is better, but not published by CSO.

Geuze

Here is some data on hourly earnings in 2016:

See table 8.

mean = 22.04

In industry = 22.41

In ICT = 29.74

endacl

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

Some people have to live on 29K a month?!?

:eek:

*drops monocle into glass of fine port*

Geuze

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

Here is some data on median earnings, from Eurostat.

It's from the Structure of Earnings Survey 2014.

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/data/database


Mean hourly earnings = 24.55 in firms with 10+ workers

Mean annual earnings = 48,598

Median annual earnings = 41,829.

Geuze

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

I think you mean the "median earnings".

Yes, median is better than the mean.

The mean 2016 earnings were 45,611.

Median earnings are lower, at 41,829 in 2014.

Geuze

Median gross hourly earnings, all employees (excluding apprentices), 2014

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Wages_and_labour_costs

Geuze

Mean hourly earnings = 22.04 in 2016.

Median hourly earnings = 20.16 ph.

Source is Eurostat SES 2014.

This is a better figure than the mean, more realistic, not skewed by outliers.

Geuze

wally1990 wrote: »

I'm looking online (just kind of messing about ) and so many jobs paying just 20,000 to 28,000 etc .

I'm on 37k annually on 37.5 week (excluding breaks) but I wonder whilst I am 'slightly above the average' is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

Your earnings are below the average.

The average is 45,611.

Geuze

wally1990 wrote: »

is there many people earning > 40 , 50, 60k or am I wrong because the jobs online from managers , credit control, accountancy , truck drivers , mechanics , healthcare all seem to be lower than the average wage

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

enricoh

Geuze wrote: »

Median gross hourly earnings, all employees (excluding apprentices), 2014

http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Wages_and_labour_costs

So ireland has the second highest wages in the eu? Wow, lets hope the corporation tax rate never changes or we'll be a very high cost nation to do business in

Geuze

enricoh wrote: »

So ireland has the second highest wages in the eu? Wow, lets hope the corporation tax rate never changes or we'll be a very high cost nation to do business in

Gross earnings ph are second highest in Euro terms, yes.
But our labour costs are not second highest.

This is beside employer PRSI is low here.

Nermal

Geuze wrote: »

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

The CAI figure is just from an email survey. A bit self-selecting!

Surveys put out by recruiters are generally a bit inflated too - it's in their interest to get you to move.

JustAThought

Nermal wrote: »

The CAI figure is just from an email survey. A bit self-selecting!

Surveys put out by recruiters are generally a bit inflated too - it's in their interest to get you to move.

I think you'll find that at the lesser end most wages are mean.

Those employee surveys are often done face to face by CSO officers - I was part of one - and most people dont want to admit their parltry wages. Ditto with the recruitment consultant surveys - the more you say you earn the greater the jump up to your new salary will be in your new job they find for you.

I'd like to see a survey done on how people strategically keep their salaries delibaratey below a certain level and decline overtime to be able to qualify and avail of the free schoolbus service, the FIS and other allowances - as many people now do, and as many employers now openly state and use to negotiate when hiring.

I had a very well paid job with a big multinational a few years back but when I calculated the hours I worked and the number of full day Saturdays and occasional Sundays I was expected to work and all the conference calls I had to participate in from home at 8 or 10pm to fit in with American office needs, I worked out that averaging my hours out over the year I was only getting paid minimun hourly wage but taking a huge amount of pressure and had no family life or personal time. Some private company salaries sound good only on paper. Of course in the public service there is no comparison - nor do the surveys factor in the incredible benefit of an index linked pension for life and gilden handshake when you retire - on the back of pruvate sector taxes and effort of course.

ligerdub

Geuze wrote:

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Geuze wrote:

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

Can we stop using the chartered accountants stat? It's the most unreliable salary stat out there.

ligerdub

ligerdub wrote: »

Can we stop using the chartered accountants stat? It's the most unreliable salary stat out there.

Is it true that those are their wages? If so I’m in!!

Kournikova

enricoh wrote: »

So ireland has the second highest wages in the eu? Wow, lets hope the corporation tax rate never changes or we'll be a very high cost nation to do business in

The cost of living is also high here so wages may be high but its certainly not affordable to live in, particularly Dublin.

witchgirl26

Also be aware that online advertisements for jobs, a lot won't actually list a salary as they will base off candidates current salaries for offer. None of the jobs I went for when I interviewed last year were advertised with a salary. One of the best ways to get an idea is looking at salary survey reports that are put out. It shows a cross section usually of different jobs, levels and locations.

Examples: https://www.morganmckinley.ie/salary-survey

http://www.sigmarrecruitment.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/Sigmar-Recruitment-Salary-Guide-2017.pdf

https://www.brightwater.ie/docs/default-source/surveys/salary-survey/2016/brightwater-salary-survey-2017.pdf?sfvrsn=2

bobbysands81

JustAThought wrote: »

I think you'll find that at the lesser end most wages are mean.

Those employee surveys are often done face to face by CSO officers - I was part of one - and most people dont want to admit their parltry wages. Ditto with the recruitment consultant surveys - the more you say you earn the greater the jump up to your new salary will be in your new job they find for you.

I'd like to see a survey done on how people strategically keep their salaries delibaratey below a certain level and decline overtime to be able to qualify and avail of the free schoolbus service, the FIS and other allowances - as many people now do, and as many employers now openly state and use to negotiate when hiring.

I had a very well paid job with a big multinational a few years back but when I calculated the hours I worked and the number of full day Saturdays and occasional Sundays I was expected to work and all the conference calls I had to participate in from home at 8 or 10pm to fit in with American office needs, I worked out that averaging my hours out over the year I was only getting paid minimun hourly wage but taking a huge amount of pressure and had no family life or personal time. Some private company salaries sound good only on paper. Of course in the public service there is no comparison - nor do the surveys factor in the incredible benefit of an index linked pension for life and gilden handshake when you retire - on the back of pruvate sector taxes and effort of course.

You were doing so well until the last couple of sentences.

I presume your new job is writing for the Indo?

ThumbTaxed

Geuze wrote: »

Chartered accountants in Leinster are on 109k average, including car and bonus.

Qual acc start at 40k+ in Dublin.

I know at least 20 chartered accountants and none are even at 75% at that. Most at 45k to 55k, some at 60k. Rubbish stat

Funny how?

Look at hotel employes, supermarket employees, bar workers, factor workers and all the rest in minimum wage jobs.
I'm 29 and on 40k and none of my friends are anywhere near that where I live, even in dublin most are on 35k to 40k and I work in I.T. along with them

The wages go up significantly after 15 years experience.

Avatar MIA

ligerdub wrote: »

Can we stop using the chartered accountants stat? It's the most unreliable salary stat out there.

This is up there with de Beers 3 months salary for an engagement ring. If you say it often enough people will believe it.

It's based on a self selecting response and no verification (AFAIK). Similar to above I know a good few CA and none are on that. I don't know any practice partners that probably skew it, but not to the extent of €109k average.

I've also spoken to management level recruitment companies and they said it's not representative.

Geuze

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I know at least 20 chartered accountants and none are even at 75% at that. Most at 45k to 55k, some at 60k. Rubbish stat

I'm only reported the salary survey, not defending it.

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/docs/default-source/dept-district-societies/leinster-district-society/salary-survey/leinster-society-salary-survey-2017-report-final-28-06-17.pdf?sfvrsn=8

Note that it is only Leinster, and it's only chartered accountants.

The 106,500 figure is not the basic salary, it includes car allowance and bonus.

And of course it may be skewed by senior people in Big4 firms.

Have a read of it yourself.

witchgirl26

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

I know at least 20 chartered accountants and none are even at 75% at that. Most at 45k to 55k, some at 60k. Rubbish stat

Are they fully qualified though? And how long for. Those things make a difference. I'm 8 years qualified and no-where near that figure but I am above what you've mentioned. It's more on experience that I've got to that level though and when you see that some of the respondents in that survey have been qualified since the mid-80's then you could understand that they've built up quite a level where they could look for salaries like that.

Geuze wrote: »

I'm only reported the salary survey, not defending it.

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/docs/default-source/dept-district-societies/leinster-district-society/salary-survey/leinster-society-salary-survey-2017-report-final-28-06-17.pdf?sfvrsn=8

Note that it is only Leinster, and it's only chartered accountants.

The 106,500 figure is not the basic salary, it includes car allowance and bonus.

And of course it may be skewed by senior people in Big4 firms.

Have a read of it yourself.

If you look at page 8 of it, it gives the breakdown between titles, areas of employment etc and for non big 4 seniors are on approx €51. The €106k is a bit of headline grabber but the reality, like Geuze says, is in the detail of the report. Also it is a general thing that the wages are higher in Leinster as cost of living is higher. Firms down in other areas would not necessarily have to pay as high a wage.

ThumbTaxed

witchgirl26 wrote: »

Are they fully qualified though? And how long for. Those things make a difference. I'm 8 years qualified and no-where near that figure but I am above what you've mentioned. It's more on experience that I've got to that level though and when you see that some of the respondents in that survey have been qualified since the mid-80's then you could understand that they've built up quite a level where they could look for salaries like that.



If you look at page 8 of it, it gives the breakdown between titles, areas of employment etc and for non big 4 seniors are on approx €51. The €106k is a bit of headline grabber but the reality, like Geuze says, is in the detail of the report. Also it is a general thing that the wages are higher in Leinster as cost of living is higher. Firms down in other areas would not necessarily have to pay as high a wage.

All qualified with around 10 years experience. I would say in the city I am from only a select few are on over 100k in wages, never mind it being an average. It doesn't make sense. My boss, a tax partner on salary is on 80k and the firm has over 1,000 clients...ie it is not a small firm.

Some sole trader accountants wouldn't even male 100k profit with 30 years experience.

It doesn't make sense

ThumbTaxed

...being ACA is not what it used to be. Not unusual ACA qualified moving to civil service for starting salary of 28k. Why would they do that if they feel they could get over 100k if it was that this amount was the average salary?

I know a whole accounts team in a PlC with 30m turnover and highest earner in accounts is 75k. She leads a team of 6. The finance director earns more than that, double, but that is one of over 1,000 staff

Avatar MIA

ThumbTaxed wrote: »

...being ACA is not what it used to be. Not unusual ACA qualified moving to civil service for starting salary of 28k. Why would they do that if they feel they could get over 100k if it was that this amount was the average salary?

I know a whole accounts team in a PlC with 30m turnover and highest earner in accounts is 75k. She leads a team of 6. The finance director earns more than that, double, but that is one of over 1,000 staff

I don't blame the CAI, but the gullible journalists that regurgitate it as fact. Just because KPMG supervise the lotto doesn't mean what comes out of CAI house needs to be taken as gospel.

Cuddlesworth

The big 4 take on a huge number of trainees every year, give them huge amounts of training, work them to the bone outside of the training, pay them next to nothing(and charge a lot more then that) and dump the vast majority of them after the 4 years end. I can't see a easy 100k a year once qualified, when those 4 company's alone spit out over 1 thousand qualified accountants a year into the market. Some of them maybe, but you could spot them from a mile away, they would always do well no matter the job.

Geuze

2017 Q2 data just published:

http://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/elcq/earningsandlabourcostsq22017finalq32017preliminaryestimates/

Average earnings:

720 pw
22.48 per hour

lawred2

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

the average is the mean

did you mean Median?

lawred2

Geuze wrote: »

I think you mean the "median earnings".

Yes, median is better than the mean.

The mean 2016 earnings were 45,611.

Median earnings are lower, at 41,829 in 2014.

that sounds high - last time I saw the median full time income in Ireland was reported at 32k

Geuze

lawred2 wrote: »

that sounds high - last time I saw the median full time income in Ireland was reported at 32k

The CSO don't publish median earnings, which is a pity.

Instead, we must look to Eurostat, who do.

See the SES 2014.

http://appsso.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/nui/show.do?dataset=earn_ses_annual&lang=en

Geuze

lawred2 wrote: »

that sounds high - last time I saw the median full time income in Ireland was reported at 32k

Note that we are discussing earnings here, not incomes.

Geuze

lawred2 wrote: »

that sounds high - last time I saw the median full time income in Ireland was reported at 32k

Median earnings in 2014 for full-time workers were 41,829.

Mean earnings the same year were 48,598, again for FT workers.

This data from Eurostat SES 2014.

Geuze

Reasonable increase in mean hourly earnings during 2017

22.15 to 22.66

That's a 2.3% increase, which is ok, given the low inflation.

Weekly earnings are up 2.5% to 735 euro.

ballyargus

No. Rent and property here are scandalous.

draiochtanois

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FizzleSticks

This post has been deleted.

Avatar MIA

FizzleSticks wrote: »

I've seen a lot of job posts where they are chancing their arm with the salary they're offering and sure enough someone takes it.

Mostly the jobs which are 20-35K are entry level or administrative but I have seen posts where they are advertising for a skilled job with 2-3 years experience and offer the starter salary with no benefits.

I'm sure it happens, but any experienced company wont want that type of employee, especially at more responsible levels. It's why I've seen some people undercut the stated salary and don't get hired.

Creol1

JustAThought wrote: »

Of course in the public service there is no comparison - nor do the surveys factor in the incredible benefit of an index linked pension for life and gilden handshake when you retire - on the back of pruvate sector taxes and effort of course.

Pensions do tend to be for life.

irishguy

If you look at the stats from charteredaccountants.ie not that many people respond in each category, the average qualification year is in the late 90's (so 20 years PQE, so 25 years after uni) and in a lot of categories the highest paid got ~8/10 times more than the lowest.
So yes there are some very paid people in Accounting (predominantly in larger Financial services organisations), but without a larger sample set and mean figures it doesnt mean much.

Conversely, I personally know a few accountants (mid-manager level) and software engineers (senior/tech lead) earning 100 -120k (salary+bonus+pension) all working for large US companies with 10-15 years experience. There are a lot of well-paid jobs in those sectors, but only for strong candidates.

ted1

Greybottle wrote: »

Average wage is a false statistic. It distorts the true picture somewhat.

The mean wage is around €29,000, which is a far more accurate picture of true earnings in the State.

Our grads start on 31k

I think to give a mean wage you need to break out jobs that require a formal qualification v a job anybody could walk into

cinnamony

ted1 wrote: »

Our grads start on 31k

I think to give a mean wage you need to break out jobs that require a formal qualification v a job anybody could walk into

I'm a recent graduate and I don't know anyone on more than 26k. I work in Data Analytics and had to negotiate a higher salary as the company wanted to give me 22k. My friends working in IT on 30k have a few years experience already so I think maybe it depends on the sector.

irishguy

cinnamony wrote: »

I'm a recent graduate and I don't know anyone on more than 26k. I work in Data Analytics and had to negotiate a higher salary as the company wanted to give me 22k. My friends working in IT on 30k have a few years experience already so I think maybe it depends on the sector.

We pay all our Dev grads (only hired 3 last year) between 30-35. 35 would only be for very strong grads/Masters students etc.

12 years ago when I graduated our class got between 24-31 (the ones that went into large MNC's and were strong devs i.e. 2.1/1.1), most were high 20's.
I know all the grads we interviewed had multiple offers in the 30-35 range, I would say they would be all the top 10% of students. i.e they all had written decent pieces of software in their free time we could talk about.

If you get non dev roles or in smaller companies then the above salaries would be less, if your non IT it would be less initially.

cinnamony

irishguy wrote: »

We pay all our Dev grads (only hired 3 last year) between 30-35. 35 would only be for very strong grads/Masters students etc.

12 years ago when I graduated our class got between 24-31 (the ones that went into large MNC's and were strong devs i.e. 2.1/1.1), most were high 20's.
I know all the grads we interviewed had multiple offers in the 30-35 range, I would say they would be all the top 10% of students. i.e they all had written decent pieces of software in their free time we could talk about.

If you get non dev roles or in smaller companies then the above salaries would be less, if your non IT it would be less initially.

Funnily enough Data Analytics is supposedly a high paying field as it is a specialization but I literally don't know anyone from my degree making 30K, my friends who work in IT and are making 30-32k are developers or software engineers. But then again they have a few years of experience. Some of them studied in Trinity or UCD so I'm not talking just about ITs (people say grads from ITs earn less) I guess its a really variable figure!

irishguy

cinnamony wrote: »

Funnily enough Data Analytics is supposedly a high paying field as it is a specialization but I literally don't know anyone from my degree making 30K, my friends who work in IT and are making 30-32k are developers or software engineers. But then again they have a few years of experience. Some of them studied in Trinity or UCD so I'm not talking just about ITs (people say grads from ITs earn less) I guess its a really variable figure!

Grads are really just a high risk cost for companies until they have a few years experience. Only the larger companies can afford to hire and pay you more in the hope you become productive in a year or 2.

Data Analytics/Data Science is well paid, but only if you have a strong development background (say in Java) and you learn R, Spark, Scala etc. That would take a while to learn all that to a sufficient enough level where you can become an asset to a company and they are willing to pay you a decent salary. Stick with it and in a few years you will be on decent money, assuming the current bubble doesnt burst by then.

cinnamony

irishguy wrote: »

Grads are really just a high risk cost for companies until they have a few years experience. Only the larger companies can afford to hire and pay you more in the hope you become productive in a year or 2.

Data Analytics/Data Science is well paid, but only if you have a strong development background (say in Java) and you learn R, Spark, Scala etc. That would take a while to learn all that to a sufficient enough level where you can become an asset to a company and they are willing to pay you a decent salary. Stick with it and in a few years you will be on decent money, assuming the current bubble doesnt burst by then.

Thats essentially what I'm hoping for. My degree had a strong emphasis on Python and R and not much Java or Spark. The company I work for has a Java and SQL team as well as a low turn over because they mostly hire internally. I've managed to build a good relationship with the development team and theyve stated that eventually they will train me in Java and SQL, so I am using my lower salary to build a stronger skillset. Java, SQL and Excel at work and Python, R and Spark in my own time.

As a graduate you have to take risks like this (accepting lower salaries to gain experience) in the hopes it pays off. In a large MNC for example it would have likely not been as easy for me to build a relationship with the development team and get trained from scratch..

GarIT

cinnamony wrote: »

I'm a recent graduate and I don't know anyone on more than 26k. I work in Data Analytics and had to negotiate a higher salary as the company wanted to give me 22k. My friends working in IT on 30k have a few years experience already so I think maybe it depends on the sector.

Was it a college or Uni you went to? I know one guy that got €125k from Amazon as a graduate but he was unique because his thesis had something to do with improving the performance of AWS. Another 3 on €75K and anyone I know with a 1st got $40K+. Most of the people with a 2:1 or lower are in the €28-36k range. I've never heard of anyone getting lower than €28k.

As a CS grad I wouldn't turn up for an interview if I knew they were payig less than €36k.