FTP and cycle racing.

Delboy007 · 02-11-2017 11:28AM

Hi thanks to all who gave me advice on 31-10 on my FTP issue.
So just an update in case anyone is interested. So my FTP when I done the 20 min FTP test on traneirroad was 256 and I was not been able complete the workouts, my cadence was between 92 to 98 and in the middle of the intervals my HR was going up to like 190 and was finding it hard to do my commute to work the next day.
So from advice here on Tue before my workout I dropped my FTP 248 and reduced the intensity by 2% and brought down my cadence between 80 to 85, was still finding it a bit hard so dropped it another 3% and boom, now it still was not easy to complete the intervals but my legs was not pulled off me and I was able to increase the cadence up to 100 RPM near the end of each intervals, my HR was rising up slowly and peaked at 172 near (more normal for me) the end of the last interval.
So dropped my FTP to 236 now and will see how that going and I will increase the intensity if it gets too easy and then retest and do it all again. So I have reduced my FTP by 8% from my 1^st FTP test.
So lesson learnt is it is better to decrease my FTP so I can completed the workout and if the workout seem too easy increase the FTP
Oh and the thought that I did not need a fan as I moved out to a small wooden shed with just the door open was way off, definitely still need a fan

Delboy007 · 02-11-2017 11:35AM

py wrote: »

Lusk_Doyle wrote: »

I never said minding them but often, the time left after minding them or putting them to bed results in a quick turbo session the only option.

This is the main reason I've started to use Zwift. Means I'm at home if one of them (the kids or the OH :pac: ) has a tantrum or issues sleeping. If I was halfway up Cruagh I'd not be able to help. It buys me a lot more brownie points by being available. Sure I've had the odd workout/race on Zwift where I've had to quit to help out but it means that the OH doesn't bear the full brunt of the issue on her own.

Yea this was the main reason I got the turbo, so when racing season comes around I will have build up enough brownie points to get away for about 5hrs every two weeks to do a race at the weekend

CramCycle · 02-11-2017 11:43AM

I have rollers so if I want to train but also have to babysit, I get my four year old to shoot nerf guns or water guns or throw bottles at me, so that it is a true representation of racing.

When he is older, I am going to get him to lie down on the drive way or jump out in front of me, and I will practice bunny hopping over him to simulate crashes.

jntsnk · 02-11-2017 11:54AM

CramCycle wrote: »

I have rollers so if I want to train but also have to babysit, I get my four year old to shoot nerf guns or water guns or throw bottles at me, so that it is a true representation of racing.

When he is older, I am going to get him to lie down on the drive way or jump out in front of me, and I will practice bunny hopping over him to simulate crashes.

Wait another few months they'll be plenty crashes in the A4 races

duffyshuffle · 02-11-2017 01:40PM

Delboy007 wrote: »

definitely still need a fan

Don’t skimp on one, ive found the difference huge, you should notice a difference in your HR not climbing a lot later on in intervals, and a loss of power over the workout.

Don’t worry about keeping on readjusting your FTP, some days you’ll feel better than others, start the workout and don’t worry if you’ve to drop intensity a few % during it, training is in zones rather than hitting a specific wattage or else failing. Just get on with it at your ‘FTP’ now and then retest in a few weeks and go again!

Crocked · 02-11-2017 01:49PM

The only issue I have with Trainerroad is they get you to test your FTP and set zones but all their workouts then give you a specific wattage to hit at all times in a workout, instead of giving you a range for you to work within. So if you are having an off day you can work at the lower end and if feeling good work at the upper end.

There is the slider to reduce your ftp but means getting off the bike to change it on the laptop mid workout etc

Macy0161 · 02-11-2017 02:23PM

Often the text will tell you the zones where it's important though. Like the VO2 Max text normally says you have to hit at least 120% FTP (iirc?) to be in the right zone.

Again iirc from the podcasts, I think thats part of the logic of the circle rather than a line for the Watt target - if I'm not feeling it just try to keep the circle on the target line for the interval even if I can't hit the actual watts. But I could just be making that one up!

Taxuser1 · 02-11-2017 02:37PM

sullzz wrote: »

I find an FTP test easier to do outside , stocking lane is ideal , but i agree unless you have access to the likes of stocking lane or similar an FTP test is hard to do without interuption .
Bit to do structured intervals or cadence work there are no reasons these cant get done outside .
I just cant stand the turbo , granted i dont use zwift .

is an uphill FTP reflective of your actual ability or your climbing ability. I'd struggle to get my Stocking Lane FTP on the flat. it's all relative i suppose if you're judging yourself only against Stocking Lane.

just as a matter of fact, my Trainer Road 8 minute Test is 60 watts lower than Stocking Lane

Taxuser1 · 02-11-2017 02:42PM

Taxuser1 wrote: »

is an uphill FTP reflective of your actual ability or your climbing ability. I'd struggle to get my Stocking Lane FTP on the flat. it's all relative i suppose if you're judging yourself only against Stocking Lane.

just as a matter of fact, my Trainer Road 8 minute Test is 60 watts lower than Stocking Lane

actually, just checked. summer scores are closer, maybe 40 watts of a difference -

DirkVoodoo · 02-11-2017 04:55PM

Taxuser1 wrote: »

actually, just checked. summer scores are closer, maybe 40 watts of a difference -

Eh, it shouldn't be that pronounced if you treat the tests the same, i.e. seated steady state efforts.

If you are getting out of the saddle on stocking lane and blasting it for the last 5 mins, it will probably not be an accurate FTP test.

mossym · 02-11-2017 05:02PM

doing FTP tests on a hill is great if you want to get a big a number as possible. that's about where it's usefulness ends. 60W seems a lot though, even for the boost going uphill gives.

if you just want to get your FTP number as high as possible, or you only use it to judge fitness increases and only use it for the test, then uphill is fine. other wise outside of ego boosting, in terms of using it to train/race with outside of going uphill, it's pointless. if you want to test it, go do your hill test, get your number, now go ride for an hour on the flat and hold that number. that'll tell you pretty quick if it is accurate or not.

sullzz · 02-11-2017 05:02PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Eh, it shouldn't be that pronounced if you treat the tests the same, i.e. seated steady state efforts.

If you are getting out of the saddle on stocking lane and blasting it for the last 5 mins, it will probably not be an accurate FTP test.

This exactly , although i dont think even if i wanted to i would be able to blast the last 5 mins up stocking lane ... id say i loom a right mess to the people i pass on the way up .

Taxuser1 · 02-11-2017 05:17PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Eh, it shouldn't be that pronounced if you treat the tests the same, i.e. seated steady state efforts.

If you are getting out of the saddle on stocking lane and blasting it for the last 5 mins, it will probably not be an accurate FTP test.

they're treated the same - both flat out efforts with very little outta saddle on stocking lane, also it's longer of course than 8 minutes. heart rate is actually higher on average on trainer road.

isn't there something about vertical metres versus flat metres power readings?

sullzz · 02-11-2017 05:18PM

mossym wrote: »

doing FTP tests on a hill is great if you want to get a big a number as possible. that's about where it's usefulness ends. 60W seems a lot though, even for the boost going uphill gives.

if you just want to get your FTP number as high as possible, or you only use it to judge fitness increases and only use it for the test, then uphill is fine. other wise outside of ego boosting, in terms of using it to train/race with outside of going uphill, it's pointless. if you want to test it, go do your hill test, get your number, now go ride for an hour on the flat and hold that number. that'll tell you pretty quick if it is accurate or not.

Ego boosting ? Nope
I dont advertise or publicise my FTP number , and yes i can train with those numbers and keep within the zones as prescribed.

Taxuser1 · 02-11-2017 05:19PM

mossym wrote: »

doing FTP tests on a hill is great if you want to get a big a number as possible. that's about where it's usefulness ends. 60W seems a lot though, even for the boost going uphill gives.

if you just want to get your FTP number as high as possible, or you only use it to judge fitness increases and only use it for the test, then uphill is fine. other wise outside of ego boosting, in terms of using it to train/race with outside of going uphill, it's pointless. if you want to test it, go do your hill test, get your number, now go ride for an hour on the flat and hold that number. that'll tell you pretty quick if it is accurate or not.

exactly, that's why i think my uphill numbers are unreliable for training. certainly couldn't work with them on trainer road.

sullzz · 02-11-2017 10:09PM

Taxuser1 wrote: »

exactly, that's why i think my uphill numbers are unreliable for training. certainly couldn't work with them on trainer road.

If you can hit a certain ftp on a climb you can hit it on the flat , i cant see what the issue is !!
Its in your head , its just easier to take it that bit handier on the flat , on a constant drag there is nowhere to hide , any let up on effort brings a sudden slowdown so you have to keep the power going .
Its more a case of manning up on the flat .

dahat · 02-11-2017 10:51PM

I've done an ftp uphill via the Xert app and had a very similar result for an ftp value from the Xert app on the flat. The uphill result gave a +12 watts.
DC rainmaker gave a very positive review for the Xert app before anyone knocks it. I think once the effort is constant and true uphill or flat will give a similar result but personally id like a very slightly draggy road rather than pure flat.

RobFowl · 03-11-2017 12:00AM

dahat wrote: »

DC rainmaker gave a very positive review for the Xert app before anyone knocks it. I think once the effort is constant and true uphill or flat will give a similar result but personally id like a very slightly draggy road rather than pure flat.

Will yis all stop quoting a feckin triathlete, they'd give a positive review to anything they used on a spin they managed to stay upright on....

robyntmorton · 03-11-2017 12:10AM

You know, Rob, I heard swimming is a great thing to do before a cycle :pac:

*ducks, gets out of the way*

tuxy · 03-11-2017 01:22AM

sullzz wrote: »

If you can hit a certain ftp on a climb you can hit it on the flat , i cant see what the issue is !!
Its in your head , its just easier to take it that bit handier on the flat , on a constant drag there is nowhere to hide , any let up on effort brings a sudden slowdown so you have to keep the power going .
Its more a case of manning up on the flat .

I have to agree with this, a watt is a watt. The one thing that can catch you out is the change in gradient as you will never get a road that's 100% flat. You can often hit slight declines and be in the wrong gear to continue the same effort.

In other news I've been off the bike with a chest infection, just as I was getting into a nice groove with winter training. I come down with one most years so at least it will be out of the way soon. And it was also a relief to find out why my power had been so low in the days before the symptoms started.

Lumen · 03-11-2017 08:22AM

sullzz wrote: »

If you can hit a certain ftp on a climb you can hit it on the flat.

This is only true if your body position (specifically hip angle) is the same.

Biomechanics and Energetics of Uphill Cycling: A review
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235634878_Biomechanics_and_Energetics_of_Uphill_Cycling_A_review

Daroxtar · 03-11-2017 08:57AM

Won my race on Zwift last night - A 4 here I come baby

https://www.zwiftpower.com/race.php?id=14265

mossym · 03-11-2017 09:28AM

Lumen wrote: »

This is only true if your body position (specifically hip angle) is the same.

Biomechanics and Energetics of Uphill Cycling: A review
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/235634878_Biomechanics_and_Energetics_of_Uphill_Cycling_A_review

thanks for posting this. even has the vector diagram

it's easy enough see the difference, pick a number higher than your ftp, say 150%, then go ride the flat at that power and see how long you can hold it. according to my power curve on strava, which is a guesstimated thing that's about 45 seconds to a minute in my case.

now go ride a hill at that power level and see how long you can hold it for , and see if the times are the same. i bet they aren't....

now, that assumes you can do the test honestly, which despite some claims i think most people will struggle to do..

mossym · 03-11-2017 09:29AM

sullzz wrote: »

Ego boosting ? Nope
I dont advertise or publicise my FTP number , and yes i can train with those numbers and keep within the zones as prescribed.

never said you were, i just said its one situation where uphill ftp tests are useful.

Macy0161 · 03-11-2017 10:28AM

Xert app gave me within a couple of watts of what TrainerRoad did for the same FTP test. But I also swim and run, so probably only works for triathletes - I was even running the app on a 920xt.

Taxuser1 · 03-11-2017 01:14PM

tuxy wrote: »

I have to agree with this, a watt is a watt. The one thing that can catch you out is the change in gradient as you will never get a road that's 100% flat. You can often hit slight declines and be in the wrong gear to continue the same effort.

In other news I've been off the bike with a chest infection, just as I was getting into a nice groove with winter training. I come down with one most years so at least it will be out of the way soon. And it was also a relief to find out why my power had been so low in the days before the symptoms started.

believe me, i'd love this to be true but it's given me hope. if it is simply all in the head then there's massive room for improvement.

fcon · 03-11-2017 02:25PM

Are there many here using the MAP, Ramp or Step test as an alternative to the 20min test?
What protocol are you using? 25watt increase per 150 seconds as in Shane Millar's youtube video? Or the British cycling's 20w/minute?
Has anyone done a subsequent 20min test at 82% map to validate the result?

thekooman · 03-11-2017 02:47PM

ah here lads get on the turbo, do a 20 minute test... then another day do your 1min, 5min and Sprint tests to see where you need to improve.

DROPS MIC...close thread! :-)

RobFowl · 03-11-2017 03:04PM

fcon wrote: »

Are there many here using the MAP, Ramp or Step test as an alternative to the 20min test?
What protocol are you using? 25watt increase per 150 seconds as in Shane Millar's youtube video? Or the British cycling's 20w/minute?
Has anyone done a subsequent 20min test at 82% map to validate the result?

You are racing A4 yeah?

fcon · 03-11-2017 03:08PM

Not any more ðŸ˜

FTP and cycle racing.

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