FTP and cycle racing.

Alfasudcrazy

What sort of a FTP should I have for A4 racing. Not so that I win everything but just to not make a fool of myself. My current FTP is a bit weak at 208 watts but if I knew what was required I would have some idea where I need to get to as regards FTP.

mathie

What weight are you?
It's watts per kg that you need to worry about

I read this article a while ago and found it interesting ...
http://www.stickybottle.com/coaching/ras-county-man-sets-out-how-much-power-is-needed-to-survive-2/

So thankfully the Ras is not the same as A4

Road racing is not just watts per kg.
It'll depend on a lot of things really.
In A4 specifically it generally comes down to a bunch sprint.
Do you have the legs and head for it after two hours in the saddle?
Have you been working on the front or hiding?
So many factors

thekooman

You might survive... you might not. its depends on your efficiency in the group and on the bike.


if you want to be on the front and giving it a lash you might need to have a power to weight of 4 (208w / 4 means you need to weigh 52kg) or if you want to try and hang on it would need to be 3 (208w / 3 means you need to weigh 70kg).

thats roughly an idea. i'm 3.9-ish (300 / 76) and can hang on in A3.
Really.. its all about the sprint and been cute in finding a position in the last 10km and keeping it.
Give it a go... but for god's sake keep your line and your wheel in the bunch!

good reads:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/d/Books/Cyclists-Training-Bible-Joe-Friel/1934030201
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Training-Racing-Power-Meter-Hunter/dp/1934030554/ref=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1485273865&sr=1-6

Beasty

Moved from Cycling Training Logs (as it's not a Cycling Training Log;))

Lumen

250W is only enough if you're jockey build.
300W is plenty unless you're heavy, and even then you can target flatter races.

Most would be somewhere between the two.

dahat

I'm heading A4 racing this year with a rough FTP of 220 but I am fat ass lad at 99kg, likely be eaten alive but it's worth a shot I think.

My FTP is done via virtual calculating from a turbo with Traineroad but I'm hoping to get access to a watt bike somewhere to get an accurate measure.

Watts per kg is coming in at 2.05 but I think I'd ride better than that if I'm being honest.

dragratchet

its worth giving a few races a go with an expectation of struggling for the first couple. its very hard to say 260watts at a certain weight will see you through a race. depends on the course and the field that pitches up on the day (enter the juniors). i've raced a3 events where i've been hanging on for dear life whilst absolutely burying myself and races where i could have watched a few youtubes on my phone as we went around. get stuck in and see how well/badly you do... then build from there.

do some club league racing first of course to develop some bunch skills which are a lot more important starting out than wattages imo .

dahat

dragratchet wrote: »

its worth giving a few races a go with an expectation of struggling for the first few. its very hard to say 260watts at a certain weight will see you through. depends on on the course and the field that pitches up on the day (enter the juniors). i've raced a3 events where ive been hanging on for dear life whilst absolutely burying myself and races where i could have watched a few youtubes on my phone as we went around. get stuck in and see how well/badly you do... then build from there.

do some club league racing first of course to develop some bunch skills which are a lot more important starting out than wattages imo .

Excellent advise, I learned alot from two club leagues last year.

Beasty

Ability to ride in a group, hold a wheel and be in the right place at the right time are probably more important than absolute power at the A4 level. As already mentioned learning a bit about racing in a club league is probably the best way to learn the ropes (unless you want to try something like track racing at Sundrive, which will teach you a lot more in a controlled and relatively safe environment)

TGD

Ya, it's all about w/kg + strategy. I won a Cat 4 with about 230 W/FTP.

Beasty

TGD wrote: »

Ya, it's all about w/kg + strategy. I won a Cat 4 with about 230 W/FTP.

I disagree fundamentally on the w/kg point. That certainly has relevance in hilly races but on relatively flat circuits, unless you're going to try and make a break (where you may well be putting out twice as much power as someone sitting in the middle of a bunch) it's more down to tactical nouse and good luck.

TCRDublin

I think people are getting too hung up on FTP, it's just a number for setting your training zones. If you're starting out racing, just enjoy the experience of it, good bad or indifferent. You will have a lot to learn. I'm starting out on my first open road racing season in A4 this year as well. I have been following a structured training plan for months for the 2017 season and my FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg. But that doesn't mean I'm going to win anything. I have to learn the intricacies of racing such as handling / conserving energy / when to attack etc...

Kaisr Sose

Beasty wrote: »

I disagree fundamentally on the w/kg point. That certainly has relevance in hilly races but on relatively flat circuits, unless you're going to try and make a break (where you may well be putting out twice as much power as someone sitting in the middle of a bunch) it's more down to tactical nouse and good luck.

I agree with that. At my best, I was 320/330w ftp/obla. I was putting out 5.4w/kg but in flat races getting no good results against guys at 350/360+. On really hilly races, I was up there in the lead groups. The longer the climb the better. The races were rarely hilly enough though! Getting in breaks was hard on flat races as the bigger guys had more explosive power than me and w/kg is not a big factor on the flat. Explosive power for 1-2mins, is generally the deciding factor in races.

To the OP
Seeing your strava rides and avg speeds - I think you will do ok at A4 and if you get that 99kg, going south, you definitely will!

niceonetom

TCRDublin wrote: »

... my FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg.

If that's correct and you're not out of A4 by Easter then you are doing something very very wrong. Lads do the Rás with less than that.

dahat

TCRDublin wrote: »

I think people are getting too hung up on FTP, it's just a number for setting your training zones. If you're starting out racing, just enjoy the experience of it, good bad or indifferent. You will have a lot to learn. I'm starting out on my first open road racing season in A4 this year as well. I have been following a structured training plan for months for the 2017 season and my FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg. But that doesn't mean I'm going to win anything. I have to learn the intricacies of racing such as handling / conserving energy / when to attack etc...

Hope I don't meet you at any race in turn up at!

You should progress quickly from A4 with that kind of FTP figure.

longshank

niceonetom wrote: »

If that's correct and you're not out of A4 by Easter then you are doing something very very wrong. Lads do the Rás with less than that.

I was thinking the same.....if I had those figures I'd be planning a pro career not worrying about A4!!

fat bloke

TCRDublin wrote: »

season and my FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg.

:eek::eek: Fack me. They're awesome figures!

Though actually, they're probably quite similar to mine.... if you switch them around. :pac:

dragratchet

370? - just ride away from the bunch, sayonara suckers.

thekooman

also to note... it depends on the powermeter you use. one powermeter could be +/- 20 or 30w. the thing is, test on your own PM and then use that for training. and keep it calibrated.

FTP of 370w... i know of one or two lads who have rode off the front of the bunch in A4 with far less than that and time trialled for 35k to win by a minute or two.

harringtonp

As pointed out above for flat A4 races it has little relevance, your tactical nous and all out power over a short distance is what it is all about.

I reviewed Strava files recently for the Gleann na Geailt climb in the Lacey Cup 2016 and the hill on the Charleville 2 day Stage 2B for 2015/2016 and one thing for sure is that for me at 78kg to have any chance of hanging on a minimum of 320-330 for 10-12 mins is needed.

So this is 4.2 W/KG for 10-12 mins at A3 standard. It is an absolute minimum which assumes a lower angled power climb (you won't have a chance of hanging on with this level in the Shay Elliot for example), a light setup, a huge amount of wheel sucking and a kind bunch. In many cases on lower angled 10-12 minute climbs in A3 races this will not be enough.

Arthurdaly

Some crazy high ftp and weight numbers in this thred, the scales and ftp protocol correct? Pro riders making an assault on a4 this year? If the numbers quoted in this thread are accurate you lads myst be the top riders in the country.

TCRDublin

harringtonp wrote: »

As pointed out above for flat A4 races it has little relevance, your tactical nous and all out power over a short distance is what it is all about.

I reviewed Strava files recently for the Gleann na Geailt climb in the Lacey Cup 2016 and the hill on the Charleville 2 day Stage 2B for 2015/2016 and one thing for sure is that for me at 78kg to have any chance of hanging on a minimum of 320-330 for 10-12 mins is needed.

So this is 4.2 W/KG for 10-12 mins at A3 standard. It is an absolute minimum which assumes a lower angled power climb (you won't have a chance of hanging on with this level in the Shay Elliot for example), a light setup, a huge amount of wheel sucking and a kind bunch. In many cases on lower angled 10-12 minute climbs in A3 races this will not be enough.

Talk to some of the old school pros (I can think of 1 I have talked to) and ask them about FTP and they'll reply "I dont bother with that sh1t, I just ride my bike". Now granted they were professional, they didn't jump on this metrics bandwagon. At the end of the day, FTP is just a number from which you set training zones. When you register for a race, you aren't given a handicap based on your FTP. Developing a racing brain seems to be the most important thing to succeed in racing! I've been told "Let the races bring you on".

iwillhtfu

This method

dahat wrote: »

My FTP is done via virtual calculating from a turbo with Traineroad.

Usually gives this result

TCRDublin wrote: »

FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg.

That is a colossal FTP are you sure that's not a max effort spike

As stated a flat course bike handling skills and being in the right place at the right time and being able to go full tilt when required out of corners etc is where it's at.

Unless of course you're going for a win in the Des Hanlon or similar then I guess light weight ans sustained effort will be useful but you'll still have to be in the right place att he right time and be able to cover surges.

niceonetom

If you really do have >5.5 w/kg there's absolutely no need for a brain. Just ride away.

iwillhtfu

niceonetom wrote: »

If you really do have >5.5 w/kg there's absolutely no need for a brain. Just ride away.

I can't see it to be honest.

Interesting article on it here.

http://www.stickybottle.com/uncategorized/chris-froomes-data-compared-to-irish-pro-ciaran-powers/

fat bloke

iwillhtfu wrote: »

I can't see it to be honest.

Interesting article on it here.

http://www.stickybottle.com/uncategorized/chris-froomes-data-compared-to-irish-pro-ciaran-powers/

That's amazing! Look at fat boy Froome!

And Ciaran Power was no lightweight either. What's with all these lard ar$es?

iwillhtfu

fat bloke wrote: »

That's amazing! Look at fat boy Froome!

And Ciaran Power was no lightweight either. What's with all these lard ar$es?

haha you can get away with that the irony of your name is not lost on me

ballyharpat

TCRDublin do you have a strata account? or what's you Garmin account? I'd love to see how you built up your numbers.... What power meter are you using?

TCRDublin wrote: »

I think people are getting too hung up on FTP, it's just a number for setting your training zones. If you're starting out racing, just enjoy the experience of it, good bad or indifferent. You will have a lot to learn. I'm starting out on my first open road racing season in A4 this year as well. I have been following a structured training plan for months for the 2017 season and my FTP is 370 and I'm 67kg. But that doesn't mean I'm going to win anything. I have to learn the intricacies of racing such as handling / conserving energy / when to attack etc...

hf4z6sqo7vjngi

Impressive numbers by TCR alright but how the FTP test was conducted and by what power meter/method could tell a lot.

Alfasudcrazy

I am hovering in the 83/84 kg range at the moment. I have tried getting the weight down to under 80kg but I always find my power on the bike (and gym) takes a similar nosedive if I do that so I have resigned myself that that is my natural weight and I will just have to accept it.

I used a garmin single sided pedal power meter to get my 208 FTP. I will try my other bike which has the dual power pedals next time as I am sure the single pedal system has less accuracy.

Beasty

Alfasudcrazy wrote: »

I used a garmin single sided pedal power meter to get my 208 FTP. I will try my other bike which has the dual power pedals next time as I am sure the single pedal system has less accuracy.

I've used various devices that measure power in each leg and I've been pleasantly surprised at how similar the output is in terms of a near 50:50 output in most cases.

The important thing is not so much absolute power as there are bound to be differences between different measuring systems, the only question then being what's is their claim to accuracy. It's actually your own relative performance and showing some improvement that really matters (or to some of us of perhaps more advancing years showing less deterioration!).

This is where I do have a bit of an issue with the Garmin pedal system as I have certainly noticed differences that should not be there, which is suggesting to me the calibration is not sufficiently consistent (for me at least).

tuxy

I'm new to all this, I've only done some club races but will be racing a4 this year so figured I'd throw my numbers in.
72kg 299 watt ftp, so 4.15 watt kg. I'll have no trouble sticking with the bunch but I expect my tactics and sprint will take some time to develop.
I have good endurance but seriously need to work on short term power for sprints.

Macy0161

dahat wrote: »

My FTP is done via virtual calculating from a turbo with Traineroad but I'm hoping to get access to a watt bike somewhere to get an accurate measure.

Is a Wattbike considered more accurate? I've been going between wattbikes in the gym and my home turbo muin's virtual power (the speed cadence sensor sends "power" to trainerroad, rather than it being trainerroads virtual power) and haven't noticed a whole lot of difference hitting the power targets, doing same work outs.

joey100

@Macy

I've used trainer road with an elite muin and then moved to a power meter. Very little difference, think there might have been 6/7 watts. Definitely less than 10. I think the direct mount trainers are easier for them to work out the power output than some of the variable resistance ones you put against the wheel. It was the same for me with a lemond revolution.

Beasty

Macy0161 wrote: »

Is a Wattbike considered more accurate? I've been going between wattbikes in the gym and my home turbo muin's virtual power (the speed cadence sensor sends "power" to trainerroad, rather than it being trainerroads virtual power) and haven't noticed a whole lot of difference hitting the power targets, doing same work outs.

Wattbikes and SRMs are considered the most accurate. I've both as well as a P2M and Quarqs and am not noticing too significant a difference. Not used the P2M much but that's partly because I'm not as confident with that as I am with the others. Only use the Garmin when I'm on a temporary bike (it's currently lent out). Also have a PT but that hardly gets used at all nowadays

Macy0161

That's good to know - I was happy enough with the logic as once it was consistent the actual power wasn't that important, but now I'm switching between turbo and wattbike, it's good to know they're close enough.

dahat

tuxy wrote: »

I'm new to all this, I've only done some club races but will be racing a4 this year so figured I'd throw my numbers in.
72kg 299 watt ftp, so 4.15 watt kg. I'll have no trouble sticking with the bunch but I expect my tactics and sprint will take some time to develop.
I have good endurance but seriously need to work on short term power for sprints.

More impressive figures and really does bring to reality the task ahead of me this racing season.
Guess a respectable showing will be all.o can expect if lads are hitting 270 plus FTP and substantially less bodyweight.

tuxy

Yeah I'm very happy with how training is going consistency over the winter has been key. But I really have no sprint. I will probably drag bigger guys to the line and they beat me on sprint. Unfortunately I don't see anyone want to work with me on break away at A4 level.

Inquitus

tuxy wrote: »

Yeah I'm very happy with how training is going consistency over the winter has been key. But I really have no sprint. I will probably drag bigger guys to the line and they beat me on sprint. Unfortunately I don't see anyone want to work with me on break away at A4 level.

Work on your Sprint, do low cadence repeats up a 4 minute hill, sprinkle sprints from a slow speed in the 53/12 into your current spins and commutes. Sprinting is very trainable, it would seem you need to stop worrying about FTP and Endurance and focus the next few weeks before the season kicks off on you Sprint.

dahat

tuxy wrote: »

Yeah I'm very happy with how training is going consistency over the winter has been key. But I really have no sprint. I will probably drag bigger guys to the line and they beat me on sprint. Unfortunately I don't see anyone want to work with me on break away at A4 level.

All you need is too get away once really but they tell me that breakaways tend to fail at A4 level.

fat bloke

dahat wrote: »

All you need is too get away once really but they tell me that breakaways tend to fail at A4 level.

There's nothing the A4's love better than chasing stuff down.

dragratchet

Im been in a good few a4 races where the break went and held on.... you need to really get some distance up the road to cast the seed of doubt in their collective minds that there's no chance of catching the break so they all may as well relax and sprint for the minor places.

dahat

I'd only love to get in a breakaway myself and will try in one race if I can get someone with me but I have been told it's pointless as as fatbloke said they love chasing people down.

dragratchet

the a4 bunch does love chasing people down but if you can get the lads who fuel the chase to fuel the break then its more than likely to stay away. see whose bringing back the break regularly, talk to em, encourage them to get up the road with you.

sullzz

I found last year that its not so much as they love to chase people down , its more that lads don't know how to ride in a break , if you are lucky enough to get a few to jump with you they ride each other into the ground then blow up and get caught , lads tend to forget that you only need to ride hard for 1 min then it's a case of calming down and riding at the same pace as the bunch

dahat

dragratchet wrote: »

the a4 bunch does love chasing people down but if you can get the lads who fuel the chase to fuel the break then its more than likely to stay away. see whose bringing back the break regularly, talk to em, encourage them to get up the road with you.

As I'll be a novice I'll see how it goes but I have tried to get lads up the road before in minor club races but ended up going on my own most times. Stayed away once but there was only 5/6km left.

It will be interesting for sure in the early weeks.

dragratchet

Wexford 2day a few years back a group of about 12 of us got away on a short climb and it looked like curtains for the bunch as we were all relatively strong and pulling on the front all day. course the moment the group sensed that this could be the winning break, half the members sat on and wouldnt contribute wanting to save something for the reduced bunch sprint. between shouting at each other and a small number of riders flogging themselves on the front the break got reeled back in. so yeah, as above.

Lumen

dragratchet wrote: »

Wexford 2day a few years back a group of about 12 of us got away on a short climb and it looked like curtains for the bunch as we were all relatively strong and pulling on the front all day. course the moment the group sensed that this could be the winning break, half the members sat on and wouldnt contribute wanting to save something for the reduced bunch sprint. between shouting at each other and a small number of riders flogging themselves on the front the break got reeled back in. so yeah, as above.

That's not unique to A4, I see it all the time on Eurosport. :pac:

The only fair racing is time trialling. That's why it's so boring.

Bambaata

dragratchet wrote: »

Wexford 2day a few years back a group of about 12 of us got away on a short climb and it looked like curtains for the bunch as we were all relatively strong and pulling on the front all day. course the moment the group sensed that this could be the winning break, half the members sat on and wouldnt contribute wanting to save something for the reduced bunch sprint. between shouting at each other and a small number of riders flogging themselves on the front the break got reeled back in. so yeah, as above.

That 2014? If so I'm was one of the few flogging ourselves! Those sharp short climbs are a killer for the heavier guys!! I was about 77kg/320 then and managed to win the TT and OA in the A4 so at 67kg and 370 the a1s is where this chap should be and near challenging for wins!!! If I managed to get to 370 at 77 I'd be confident of doing well at A1. I've got to a2 last year at 78kg/340

Arthurdaly

I'd be taking most of the numbers quoted in here with a pinch of salt unless there is an huge amount of untapped potential lurking in A4.

A friend reckons he has FTP of 330 @ 75kg and he regularly gets dropped when the hammer goes down on the club racing spins. I questioned his FTP but he was having none of it, he still quotes his FTP as 330. I think he has the latest Fisher Price power meter and does the 3 min testing protocol to estimate.

Lumen

Maybe the 370W is the power at the end of a ramp test.