Ireland staying neutral in WW2 was Eamon de Valera's greatest achievement - Leo

wakka12 · 27-10-2017 01:54PM

diomed wrote: »

All Britain and Germany wanted was a playing pitch for their war - Ireland.
I'm not a Shinner. When it comes to Britain having our best interests at heart I think it best to ignore their advice.

Yeh I agree. Nerve of british government at the time to condemn ireland for not helping them in the war war after the then very recent history between britain and ireland!

RobertKK · 27-10-2017 01:57PM

De Valera signed the book of condolence as a FU to the British, who had threatened to invade Ireland for not getting militarily involved.

Hitler had a plan for invading Ireland. It should be remembered there were a lot of people alive then who had lived under British rule.
Who remembered the Black and Tans and it was not like now where relations are much stronger, even if there British have been incredibly stupid with Brexit...which doesn’t help things.

diomed · 27-10-2017 02:01PM

Winston Churchill lived for a few years in the Phoenix Park aged about 5.
I delivered newspapers to Linden Convalescent Home when Eamonn De Valera was there.

Britain does a lot of invading and fighting. We don't.

The countries never invaded by the British:
Andorra
Belarus
Bolivia
Burundi
Central African Republic
Chad
Congo, Republic of
Guatemala
Ivory Coast
Kyrgyzstan
Liechtenstein
Luxembourg
Mali
Marshall Islands
Monaco
Mongolia
Paraguay
Sao Tome and Principe
Sweden
Tajikistan
Uzbekistan
Vatican City

Out of 193 countries that are currently UN member states, Britain invaded or fought conflicts in the territory of 171.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/All-Countries-Weve-Ever-Invaded/dp/0752479695

Get off your moral high ground OP.

Doltanian · 27-10-2017 02:03PM

It was an appalling decision and further continued Ireland's isolation when Ireland should have declared war on Germany in 1939 in tandem with the British. It deprived Ireland of what would have been a huge cash injection with the Marshal Plan, Ireland would have been United today also as a direct result of it, and cities like Dublin and Limerick would probably have been obliterated and rebuilt properly afterwards.

Eamon De Valera was a traitor to Ireland he singlehandedly held the country back for over 50 years and there is absolutely nothing that he can be praised for.

maryishere · 27-10-2017 02:10PM

Conall Cernach wrote: »

The Germans had no reason to attack Ireland if they had beaten Britain.

Nazi Germany had a history of invading neutral countries, deporting its Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies etc to concentration camps and using its menfolk as slaves in factories for the Nazi war effort.
The UK and its allies defended us from all that.

Respect to the 120,000 people from the island of Ireland who volunteered and served with the British war effort.

diomed · 27-10-2017 02:11PM

Doltanian wrote: »

Ireland would have been United today also as a direct result of it

Or Britain would not have left after the war and Ireland would be part of the United Kingdom again.
Do you really believe the British word?

diomed · 27-10-2017 02:14PM

Doltanian wrote: »

cities like Dublin and Limerick would probably have been obliterated and rebuilt properly afterwards.

That is a benefit of Ireland joining Britain in war?

wakka12 · 27-10-2017 02:16PM

Doltanian wrote: »

It was an appalling decision and further continued Ireland's isolation when Ireland should have declared war on Germany in 1939 in tandem with the British. It deprived Ireland of what would have been a huge cash injection with the Marshal Plan, Ireland would have been United today also as a direct result of it, and cities like Dublin and Limerick would probably have been obliterated and rebuilt properly afterwards.

Eamon De Valera was a traitor to Ireland he singlehandedly held the country back for over 50 years and there is absolutely nothing that he can be praised for.

NO they wouldnt , they would be fugly looking post war cities like cologne and coventry. Not that dublin looks that great today but it would look a lot worse if it had been bombed

donegaLroad · 27-10-2017 02:26PM

maryishere wrote: »

Nazi Germany had a history of invading neutral countries, deporting its Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies etc to concentration camps and using its menfolk as slaves in factories for the Nazi war effort.
The UK and its allies defended us from all that.

Respect to the 120,000 people from the island of Ireland who volunteered and served with the British war effort.

Russia played a much larger part in defending us from all that.

Hitman3000 · 27-10-2017 02:27PM

donegaLroad wrote:

Russia played a much larger part in defending us from all that.

Ssh... you can't say that.

Kivaro · 27-10-2017 02:28PM

A Little Pony wrote: »

Churchill was right on this issue. Shame on De Valera and not standing up to Nazi tyranny.

Get off that high horse little pony!

Zebra3 · 27-10-2017 02:28PM

maryishere wrote: »

Nazi Germany had a history of invading neutral countries, deporting its Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies etc to concentration camps and using its menfolk as slaves in factories for the Nazi war effort.
The UK and its allies defended us from all that.

Respect to the 120,000 people from the island of Ireland who volunteered and served with the British war effort.

Britain has a far longer history of invading neutral countries, ethnically cleansing the locals, committing genocide, engaging in land theft, sending people off to concentration camps, to name but a few of their crimes.

Respect to all those Irish people who resisted the pressure to join Britain’s war on Germany.

Conall Cernach · 27-10-2017 02:29PM

maryishere wrote: »

Nazi Germany had a history of invading neutral countries, deporting its Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies etc to concentration camps and using its menfolk as slaves in factories for the Nazi war effort.
The UK and its allies defended us from all that.

Respect to the 120,000 people from the island of Ireland who volunteered and served with the British war effort.

They had a history of invading neutral countries for strategic reasons such as when they attacked the Netherlands and Belgium to defeat France or the invasion of Norway to get their iron resources. No such reason existed to invade Ireland. They would have gained nothing that they could not have gained through trade and would have to expend several hundred thousand troops garrisoning the country.

Maybe if they had also defeated the USSR they might have turned their attention to Ireland as an afterthought like they also may have eventually moved against Switzerland and Sweden. But let's face it the chances are that they could have easily organised for a puppet government to run the show here without having to set a jackboot on the ground.

murphthesmurf · 27-10-2017 02:32PM

Conall Cernach wrote: »

The Germans had no reason to attack Ireland if they had beaten Britain. They didn't even want to go to war with Britain in the first place. Their ideology was based on expansion to the East not the West.

I take your point, but had he gotten that far I think it very unlikely he wouldn't have taken that one last step. They would already have been on the island after having taken the north. He would surely have marched south through the rest of the island, Irelands rich agricultural lands would have gone a long way to keeping the German troops well fed. Strategically taking Ireland before Britain had fallen would have allowed him to attack on 2 fronts, splitting the British defences such as the RAF and Navy. With the benefit of hindsight it's easy to look back and say this and that should have been done. The Irish government may have looked at the war and thought it inevitable that Britain would lose against the might of the German army, therefor chose to not upset their soon to be new neighbours.

maryishere · 27-10-2017 02:34PM

donegaLroad wrote: »

Russia played a much larger part in defending us from all that.

If Britain had fallen in 1940, or had not defended us, we would have been invaded by Nazi Germany long before Hitler turned on Russia. The UK sent many convoys of supplies to Russia to help them defeat Germany. The father of an Irish person I know served on those arctic convoys, as did some other Irish men.
I remember hearing it was so cold that if you touched metal with your bare hands, they stuck to it. The weather was awful and there was a constant threat of submarines and they lost many ships.

Do not forget Nazi Germany's invasion of other neutral countries like Denmark and Norway on 9 April 1940—then other neutral countries like Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg on 10 May 1940. Do you know how those countries Jews, gays, communists etc fared in the concentration camps? Or how those countries men were worked in slave labour factories?

degrassinoel · 27-10-2017 02:42PM

RobertKK wrote: »

Hitler had a plan for invading Ireland.

Case green was the name for it, some people know it as operation emerald or operation green. Apparently there were pamphlets printed for the invasion force and all, and apparently in those pamphlets there were instructions on how to deal with Irish people, specifically mentioning not to piss them off when they're in the pub.

Zebra3 · 27-10-2017 02:53PM

maryishere wrote: »

If Britain had fallen in 1940, or had not defended us, we would have been invaded by Nazi Germany long before Hitler turned on Russia. The UK sent many convoys of supplies to Russia to help them defeat Germany. The father of an Irish person I know served on those arctic convoys, as did some other Irish men.
I remember hearing it was so cold that if you touched metal with your bare hands, they stuck to it. The weather was awful and there was a constant threat of submarines and they lost many ships.

Do not forget Nazi Germany's invasion of other neutral countries like Denmark and Norway on 9 April 1940—then other neutral countries like Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg on 10 May 1940. Do you know how those countries Jews, gays, communists etc fared in the concentration camps? Or how those countries men were worked in slave labour factories?

Don’t forget about Britain invading and occupying neutral India for over a century and allowing millions of natives to starve to death. Something that never bothered the rabid supremacist that was Winston Churchill.

And let us not forget Britain’s war against China in an attempt to turn the Chinese people into drug addicted.

Strange that some people only mention crimes against white European people and don’t seem so bothered about crimes against Asians.

A Little Pony · 27-10-2017 03:15PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

maryishere wrote: »

Nazi Germany had a history of invading neutral countries, deporting its Jews, homosexuals, communists, gypsies etc to concentration camps and using its menfolk as slaves in factories for the Nazi war effort.
The UK and its allies defended us from all that.

Respect to the 120,000 people from the island of Ireland who volunteered and served with the British war effort.

Britain has a far longer history of invading neutral countries, ethnically cleansing the locals, committing genocide, engaging in land theft, sending people off to concentration camps, to name but a few of their crimes.

Respect to all those Irish people who resisted the pressure to join Britain’s war on Germany.

It was stopping Nazi tyranny over Europe. What can you possibly argue against? The Irish state should have joined the Allied effort, to the eternal shame they didn't.

murphthesmurf · 27-10-2017 03:17PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don’t forget about Britain invading and occupying neutral India for over a century and allowing millions of natives to starve to death. Something that never bothered the rabid supremacist that was Winston Churchill.

And let us not forget Britain’s war against China in an attempt to turn the Chinese people into drug addicted.

Strange that some people only mention crimes against white European people and don’t seem so bothered about crimes against Asians.

How does what England did in the 1800's somehow belittle what Nazi Germany did . Anyone involved in what England did back then were all long dead before WW2 began. There was also French, Danish, and Dutch in India, guess Nazi Germany invading them was just karma then.

maryishere · 27-10-2017 03:20PM

Zebra3 wrote: »

Don’t forget about Britain invading and occupying neutral India for over a century .

And the Indians were so grateful for the civilisation, railways, legal system, industry etc that Britain brought that they volunteered over two and a half million soldiers to fight under British command against the Axis powers. The financial, industrial and military assistance of India formed a crucial component of the British campaign against Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan. As wiki says, after the end of the war, India's emerged as the world's fourth largest industrial power and its increased political, economic and military influence paved the way for its independence from the United Kingdom in 1947

server down · 27-10-2017 03:21PM

Aegir wrote: »

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

That’s was actually said by a nazi sympathiser.

Hitman3000 · 27-10-2017 03:21PM

maryishere wrote:

If Britain had fallen in 1940, or had not defended us, we would have been invaded by Nazi Germany long before Hitler turned on Russia. The UK sent many convoys of supplies to Russia to help them defeat Germany. The father of an Irish person I know served on those arctic convoys, as did some other Irish men. I remember hearing it was so cold that if you touched metal with your bare hands, they stuck to it. The weather was awful and there was a constant threat of submarines and they lost many ships.

A very simplistic view of the Russian involvement but not surprising. Western Europe has been very slow to acknowledge the enormous contribution the Russians made in the defeat of the Nazis. The vast resources available to Stalin in terms of human ( and his disregard for it) life and weaponry not forgetting the Russian winters helped secure victory on an equal footing with the allies if not surpassing it.

A Little Pony · 27-10-2017 03:26PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

maryishere wrote:

If Britain had fallen in 1940, or had not defended us, we would have been invaded by Nazi Germany long before Hitler turned on Russia. The UK sent many convoys of supplies to Russia to help them defeat Germany. The father of an Irish person I know served on those arctic convoys, as did some other Irish men. I remember hearing it was so cold that if you touched metal with your bare hands, they stuck to it. The weather was awful and there was a constant threat of submarines and they lost many ships.

A very simplistic view of the Russian involvement but not surprising. Western Europe has been very slow to acknowledge the enormous contribution the Russians made in the defeat of the Nazis. The vast resources available to Stalin in terms of human ( and his disregard for it) life and weaponry not forgetting the Russian winters helped secure victory on an equal footing with the allies if not surpassing it.

You forgetting about all that food and oil supplies which the United States supplied Russia, and even then Stalin nearly made a complete balls of it and millions of his people died because of his daft strategy on ground warfare.

27-10-2017 03:27PM

server down wrote: »

That’s was actually said by a nazi sympathiser.

who spent seven years in a Nazi concentration camp

Shurimgreat · 27-10-2017 03:27PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

A very simplistic view of the Russian involvement but not surprising. Western Europe has been very slow to acknowledge the enormous contribution the Russians made in the defeat of the Nazis. The vast resources available to Stalin in terms of human ( and his disregard for it) life and weaponry not forgetting the Russian winters helped secure victory on an equal footing with the allies if not surpassing it.

Meh..

The Russians stayed neutral and out of it when Hitler was invading western Europe and threathening to invade Britain. In fact they were siding with Hitler to a point at that stage, by supplying him with raw materials. They also invaded Poland at the same time as the Poles were trying to fight off the Germans.

When Russia was being bled dry in 1942/43 Stalin demanded a new Western front. Yet he had no interest in doing the same or helping the allies in 1940 defeat his new buddy Hitler.

The Russians also benefitted hugely from western supplies of arms.
And Stalin's routine purges of military officers meant his army was in tatters by 1941.
They also failed to declare war on Japan until after the atomic bomb was dropped, preferring to allow the Americans do much of the fighting and dying on that front. Instead, the Russians had only one front to contend with, whereas most other armies including the Germans had multiple fronts to fight on.

In short the Russians hardly covered themselves in glory for much of the war.

diomed · 27-10-2017 03:27PM

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Malcolm McDonald, acting as England's negotiator in these talks, also offered to end the partition of Ireland, ie give back the six counties, if Ireland joined the allies.

I wouldn't trust the England centre-forward
https://talksport.com/sites/default/files/tscouk_old_image/blog/Malcolm-MacDonald.jpg

server down · 27-10-2017 03:29PM

Doltanian wrote: »

It was an appalling decision and further continued Ireland's isolation when Ireland should have declared war on Germany in 1939 in tandem with the British. It deprived Ireland of what would have been a huge cash injection with the Marshal Plan, Ireland would have been United today also as a direct result of it, and cities like Dublin and Limerick would probably have been obliterated and rebuilt properly afterwards.

Eamon De Valera was a traitor to Ireland he singlehandedly held the country back for over 50 years and there is absolutely nothing that he can be praised for.

The Marshall plan was hardly on offer in 1939, 2 years before the US was forced to get involved in the European conflict.

And hoping that a city gets bombed and thousands killed to get new buildings. That’s crazy talk.

server down · 27-10-2017 03:30PM

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Meh..
The Russians stayed neutral and out of it when Hitler was invading western Europe and threathening to invade Britain. In fact they were siding with Hitler to a point at that stage, by supplying him with raw materials. They also invaded Poland at the same time as the Poles were trying to fight off the Germans.

When Russia was being bled dry in 1942/43 Stalin demanded a new Western front. Yet he had no interest in doing the same or helping the allies in 1940 defeat his new buddy Hitler.

The Russians also benefitted hugely from western supplies of arms.
And Stalin's routine purges of military officers meant his army was in tatters by 1941.
They also failed to declare war on Japan until after the atomic bomb was dropped, preferring to allow the Americans do much of the fighting and dying on that front. Instead, the Russians had only one front to contend wither, whereas most other armies including the Germans had multiple fronts to fight on.

In short the Russians hardly covered themselves in glory for much of the war.

Russia wanted to join the axis in fact. Petitioned to.

Hitman3000 · 27-10-2017 03:32PM

Shurimgreat wrote:

In short the Russians hardly covered themselves in glory for much of the war.

Regardless Russian involvement secured victory. Stalin had no problem wasting the lives of millions of his citizens. A resource other countries were running short of .

Shurimgreat · 27-10-2017 03:38PM

Hitman3000 wrote: »

Regardless Russian involvement secured victory. Stalin had no problem wasting the lives of millions of his citizens. A resource other countries were running short of .

Hitler would probably have been defeated in 1939/40 if the Russians hadn't sided with him at that stage. The war could have been shortened by years.
The only reason he invaded western Europe was because he knew the Russians weren't going to attack him. Stalin gave him two thumbs up to invade Poland and the west. My view of Stalin and Hitler is both were equally as bad, particularly when you consider what Stalin did to the Ukraine as well as other groups such as in Crimea.

Ireland staying neutral in WW2 was Eamon de Valera's greatest achievement - Leo

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