Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781

irishbucsfan · 26-10-2017 09:24PM

TheCitizen wrote: »

And despite what the 'experts' on here might say, you can't have one rule for Sexton and another for everyone else.

I mean maybe you're more of an expert than me, but it looks like that's exactly what they have.

prawnsambo · 26-10-2017 09:25PM

TheCitizen wrote: »

That's a strange decision. You can't force players to remain in Ireland long term, it will unravel. And despite what the 'experts' on here might say, you can't have one rule for Sexton and another for everyone else.

The IRFU need to come up with some sort of middle ground, maybe a player can sign up to a 2 year contract in England or France and still be available to be picked for Ireland, but after that they will be told they'll be replaced. It's way too draconian as it is now.

The IRFU will be changing that policy sooner or later, that's for certain. The question is are they going to manage it with a bit of creativity or will they just react and firefight desperately.

Firstly, there's no force involved. The IRFU are just making the decision to leave as hard as possible and using every brgaining chip at their disposal.

Secondly, what? So the provinces just take a couple of years off while they wait for players to come back?

And thirdly, whjy is it certain that they'll change? What choice do they have against the might of the French and English clubs?

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 26-10-2017 09:35PM

Poor old Zebo, born 4 years too late.
2 crucial points
1. If furlong said he was leaving tomorrow I wonder what Uncle Joes policy would be then.
2. World player of the year cannot be used to validate anything - driscoll never winning devalues the whole competition. Sexton is a great player and is crucial to Ireland. He has and never will be a world class 10. Examples of World class would be wilkinson, carter, lynam, and barrett now.
Lets keep things real on here.

TheCitizen · 26-10-2017 09:35PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

If players leave en masse, and i mean 6-7-8 top players from each province, that makes it harder for the provinces to remain competitive (in Europe especially). The knock on is loss of revenue which hurts the provinces even more.

Then the provinces have to recruit from outside which means added expense for players who have little value at national level. If they cant recruit top level guys Then guys coming into academies are playing in squads with a lower all round ability. So they arent training or playing at the same standard as now. The influence of overseas coaches at provinces has been huge. Attracting coaches of that standard then becomes tougher.

At national team level the prep time if players overseas are selected is reduced drastically because you will have guys rocking up with injuries/knocks. Or in need of recovery rest time. Currently the national side gets together 2 weeks before AI or 6n. They have proper lead in with releases to provinces managed on a gametime required basis.

For the provinces to remain competitive and the IRFU to remain strong financially (they fund the provinces substantially) we need a strong national side.

Otherwise we end up like the lovechild of Wales and Scotland.

IRFU have one trump card. There is also a pile of players out of contract next may. If they have international ambitions then they now know where they have to be to realise them.

I can see their point.

Yeah_Right · 26-10-2017 09:39PM

I think it's ridiculous that people think TOH should have been included over RK. There are four uncapped players in the midfield and back three. Another four players covering those spots have about 10 caps between them. DK is the 6th most experienced test player the backline with a massive 16 caps.

But sure what could RK and all the experience he picked up in 70+ test matches, bring to a squad full of newbies? Obviously TOH and all his test experience would be much more useful.

CIARAN_BOYLE · 26-10-2017 09:40PM

The other element is of course it's not one deal for Zebo and one for everyone else.

Sexton made the effort of reducing his potential racing salary by circa 100k per annum so that he could attend 30+ international training days outside of the international window.

Zebo hasn't done that.

The Rape of Lucretia · 26-10-2017 09:43PM

To get the series of to a win, yet with a daring eye to the future in the blending-in of multiple young turks to the core squad, I would play it this way for the starting 15 :

Jack McGrath Rory Best Tadhg Furlong
Devin Toner Iain Henderson
Sean O'Brien Jack Conan Peter O'Mahony

Conor Murray Johnny Sexton
Keith Earls Stuart McCloskey Robbie Henshaw Jacob Stockdale
Joey Carbery

prawnsambo · 26-10-2017 09:43PM

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

Poor old Zebo, born 4 years too late.
2 crucial points
1. If furlong said he was leaving tomorrow I wonder what Uncle Joes policy would be then.

Same as it was when Marty Moore left I suspect.

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

2. World player of the year cannot be used to validate anything - driscoll never winning devalues the whole competition. Sexton is a great player and is crucial to Ireland. He has and never will be a world class 10. Examples of World class would be wilkinson, carter, lynam, and barrett now.
Lets keep things real on here.

You'd be pretty much alone in that opinion.

TheCitizen · 26-10-2017 09:43PM

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I mean maybe you're more of an expert than me, but it looks like that's exactly what they have.

I think the Sexton decision is hypocritical and the rugby 'experts' here seem likely to stonewall on that siting he had it in his contract to be available for Ireland camps etc. I can see why the IRFU have made the decision they've made but Sexton should've been left out as well when he was in France. I still think the IRFU policy is draconian. Zebo shouldn't be dropped while he's still playing for Munster and I think maybe a 2 year timeframe could be looked at.

Yeah_Right · 26-10-2017 09:50PM

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

2. World player of the year cannot be used to validate anything - driscoll never winning devalues the whole competition. Sexton is a great player and is crucial to Ireland. He has and never will be a world class 10. Examples of World class would be wilkinson, carter, lynam, and barrett now.

Who are Driscoll and Lynam? Been watching rugby for a while now and can't think of any world class players with those names.

Also, you are wrong. Sexton is world class. And a few years ago he probably was the best number 10 in the game (as much as it pains me to admit).

irishbucsfan · 26-10-2017 09:53PM

TheCitizen wrote: »

I think the Sexton decision is hypocritical and the rugby 'experts' here seem likely to stonewall on that siting he had it in his contract to be available for Ireland camps etc. I can see why the IRFU have made the decision they've made but Sexton should've been left out as well when he was in France. I still think the IRFU policy is draconian. Zebo shouldn't be dropped while he's still playing for Munster and I think maybe a 2 year timeframe could be looked at.

It's not hypocritical. It's partially inconsistent. However the IRFU are mostly consistent these days in dropping guys who go overseas: Marty Moore, Ian Madigan etc.

The IRFU policy is spot on. I don't want to see Irish players leaving so anything the IRFU do to prevent it is perfectly fine in my book. Zebo has given the IRFU a perfect opportunity to reaffirm their commitment to the policy.

nc6000 · 26-10-2017 09:56PM

CIARAN_BOYLE wrote: »

The other element is of course it's not one deal for Zebo and one for everyone else.

Sexton made the effort of reducing his potential racing salary by circa 100k per annum so that he could attend 30+ international training days outside of the international window.

Zebo hasn't done that.

How do you know that? It hasn't even been confirmed yet that he's joining Racing.

connachta · 26-10-2017 10:01PM

Aside Aki/Zebo trolls,
let's calm down we're nearly 2 years before RWC
Those who are hard done by Schmidt now have smth like 20 international games to push for their inclusion, and can be noticed in big games starting interpros this week-end
1) any hooker better than Herring
2) TOH
3) Scannell
4) Cooney
5) Beirne

RichieRich89 · 26-10-2017 10:02PM

errlloyd wrote: »

Would it be fair to say that other than Sexy, Keatley and Carbery none of those backs are particularly good at passing the ball.

I really hope Carbs gets a run at 15, otherwise we're here for Warren Ball.

The real problem, as I see it, is the lack of a passing option at 15 (unless Carbery plays there, obviously). The attack was very predictable with Conway at fullback against the Japs. Earls, Sweetnam and Farrell are good passers, and McCloskey's not bad either. Farrell's excellent passing game was on show in the Leinster-Munster match a few weeks back

Burkie1203 · 26-10-2017 10:05PM

TheCitizen wrote: »

I think the Sexton decision is hypocritical and the rugby 'experts' here seem likely to stonewall on that siting he had it in his contract to be available for Ireland camps etc. I can see why the IRFU have made the decision they've made but Sexton should've been left out as well when he was in France. I still think the IRFU policy is draconian. Zebo shouldn't be dropped while he's still playing for Munster and I think maybe a 2 year timeframe could be looked at.

3 or 4 years ago we had a seismic shift in rugby. The Heineken cup was disbanded, a new comp came about, england and france got massive tv deals and the pro12 was struggling in comparison.

The IRFU are trying to protect the pro game here, and unless someone comes along and throws a few hundred million over 10-20 years the IRFU wont be able to compete with the salaries on offer abroad.

Comparing sexton to zebo is wrong. Different times, different landscape.

If we want competitive provincial sides this is the way it has to be.

accensi0n · 26-10-2017 10:07PM

RichieRich89 wrote: »

The real problem, as I see it, is the lack of a passing option at 15 (unless Carbery plays there, obviously). The attack was very predictable with Conway at fullback against the Japs. Earls, Sweetnam and Farrell are good passers, and McCloskey's not bad either. Farrell's excellent passing game was on show in the Leinster-Munster match a few weeks back

He just needs to start passing backwards and it'll be even better.

Burkie1203 · 26-10-2017 10:10PM

connachta wrote: »

Aside Aki/Zebo trolls,
let's calm down we're nearly 2 years before RWC
Those who are hard done by Schmidt now have smth like 20 international games to push for their inclusion, and can be noticed in big games starting interpros this week-end
1) any hooker better than Herring
2) TOH
3) Scannell
4) Cooney
5) Beirne

1. I have no issue with Herring selection.
2. Joe doesn't rate him. Id love to know why. But in this case with so many new faces we need a few experienced heads.
3. Unlucky but Henshaw and McCloskey are fair calls
4. Cooney is 4th choice
5. Ireland camp begins sunday. Beirne not available until monday week

accensi0n · 26-10-2017 10:12PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

1. I have no issue with Herring selection.
2. Joe doesn't rate him. Id love to know why. But in this case with so many new faces we need a few experienced heads.
3. Unlucky but Henshaw and McCloskey are fair calls
4. Cooney is 4th choice
5. Ireland camp begins sunday. Beirne not available until monday week

Banned. Logic and reason prohibited.

The Rape of Lucretia · 26-10-2017 10:14PM

RichieRich89 wrote: »

the Japs.

:eek:

Excuse me !

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 26-10-2017 10:22PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Same as it was when Marty Moore left I suspect.

You'd be pretty much alone in that opinion.

furlong is currently world class to borrow a term you would understand.

Regards sexton, biased fanboys of any player will never admit reality. So lets leave it there.

26-10-2017 10:29PM

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

furlong is currently world class to borrow a term you would understand.

Regards sexton, biased fanboys of any player will never admit reality. So lets leave it there.

And Gatland, the biggest biased fanboy of them all, considered him the best fly half in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales only last summer.

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 26-10-2017 10:30PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

Who are Driscoll and Lynam? Been watching rugby for a while now and can't think of any world class players with those names.

Also, you are wrong. Sexton is world class. And a few years ago he probably was the best number 10 in the game (as much as it pains me to admit).

well before your time. rugby was a better game to watch and for me from 2007 it started to lose its soul. Look up some old footage, educate yourself. Try and see outside modern rugby which is a game for brawn only, brain unfortunately has been reduced to a select few.
As rugby has beefed up so unfortunatly have many supporters. To think you have never heard of Brian ODriscoll is very sad but its good you are honest.
There was a time when Ireland played the game like it should be but those days are dead and gone. Uncle Joe saw to that.

mfceiling · 26-10-2017 10:30PM

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

I have given out about Schmidt on here alot and I stand by that. He is a very strange coach.
Unless scannel, cronin and ohalloran are injured there is no justification.

all in all we will always under perform with Schmidt as he always refused to pick the best available players.

but with Schmidt there is always some illogical picks and more illogical posts on here backing those same Schmidt picks.

Are his picks strange because he didn't pick the exact same players you would have?

Could you name a few of the "best available players" he didn't pick and give reasons as to why he picked the alternatives?

prawnsambo · 26-10-2017 10:30PM

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

furlong is currently world class to borrow a term you would understand.

Regards sexton, biased fanboys of any player will never admit reality. So lets leave it there.

Let's not.

yeah_right is a Kiwi. Perhaps you'd want to reconsider who exactly is the fanboy in light of that fact?

But I'm glad to see that you're resortng to playing the man since you clearly can't play the ball. The obvious shortcoming in your argument is obvious. :pac:

Burkie1203 · 26-10-2017 10:30PM

Marina Old-fashioned Locket wrote: »

furlong is currently world class to borrow a term you would understand.

Regards sexton, biased fanboys of any player will never admit reality. So lets leave it there.

Reality
Led Leinster to 3 heineken cups
Led ireland to back to back 6n titles
Started 5 of the last 6 lions tests losing only one of those that he started

He is clearly a world class player.

Marty Moore was very much part of Joe's plans at the time he left because there was even talk of him trying to get out of his wasps contract. At that stage Furlong was nowhere near the player he is now.

Your comparing Furlong of today against Moore a few seasons ago.

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 26-10-2017 10:35PM

Deleted User wrote: »

And Gatland, the biggest biased fanboy of them all, considered him the best fly half in England, Scotland, Ireland and Wales only last summer.

I think the term you are looking for is International class.
World class is something special and Brian ODriscoll is the only irish player I would call world class in the professional era.
After that maybe Tommy Bowe.

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 26-10-2017 10:38PM

prawnsambo wrote: »

Let's not.

yeah_right is a Kiwi. Perhaps you'd want to reconsider who exactly is the fanboy in light of that fact?

But I'm glad to see that you're resortng to playing the man since you clearly can't play the ball. The obvious shortcoming in your argument is obvious. :pac:

I am confused, the post you quote was used to answer a post by you.
Why are you saying Yeah Right, what are you posting about. I am confused. Are you Yeah Right and prawnsambo.
What is happening here?

wp_rathead · 26-10-2017 10:41PM

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I think it's ridiculous that people think TOH should have been included over RK. There are four uncapped players in the midfield and back three. Another four players covering those spots have about 10 caps between them. DK is the 6th most experienced test player the backline with a massive 16 caps.

But sure what could RK and all the experience he picked up in 70+ test matches, bring to a squad full of newbies? Obviously TOH and all his test experience would be much more useful.

How exactly are players meant to get experience if they don't get picked?

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 26-10-2017 10:42PM

mfceiling wrote: »

Are his picks strange because he didn't pick the exact same players you would have?

Could you name a few of the "best available players" he didn't pick and give reasons as to why he picked the alternatives?

I gave names a few posts ago and i am loking for explanations on why they are excluded.
I dont have the answers, I am looking for someone to explain to me why average is king with uncle joe.

1eg0a3xv7b82of · 26-10-2017 10:48PM

Burkie1203 wrote: »

Reality
Led Leinster to 3 heineken cups
Led ireland to back to back 6n titles
Started 5 of the last 6 lions tests losing only one of those that he started

He is clearly a world class player.

Marty Moore was very much part of Joe's plans at the time he left because there was even talk of him trying to get out of his wasps contract. At that stage Furlong was nowhere near the player he is now.

Your comparing Furlong of today against Moore a few seasons ago.

1. Explain Led, why did Sexton Led Leinster and Ireland to 3 Heineken Cups, how many leinster players have 3 medals?
2. If he is world class, what does that make carter, a higher level of being?
3. I am not referring to marty moore in any context, the point I am making is furlong is a very important player for Ireland and if he were to leave to say France, uncle joe would break every rule written and unwritten for him to be available for Ireland. And we all on here would agree with that.

Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - ** MOD NOTE POST #4781 **

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Ireland Team Talk/Gossip/Rumour Thread VIII - MOD NOTE POST #4781