#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Icemancometh · 22-10-2017 10:59PM

anewme wrote: »

I don't recall attractiveness being mentioned at all until you said it.

A persons personality dictates their attractiveness.

A person immediately becomes ugly and unattractive when they harass someone.

Case in point Did Ben Affleck not get into trouble and have to apologise for groping someone recently?

The post I responded to:

brooke 2 wrote: »

. Picture a drooling Harvey Weinstein sitting across from her! Ugh!! :mad:

You interpret that how you want, but I think it's clear. A lot of the articles I read about Weinstein's actions made clear his repulsive appearance. I am in complete agreement with you that the attractiveness of the abuser does not affect the abuse in any way. I was trying to highlight what you are you now saying in fact, just did a poor job of it I guess.

gammygils · 22-10-2017 11:01PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

I still have FB "friends" that have the opaque French Flag in their profile pic.

#Metoo

retro:electro · 22-10-2017 11:02PM

brooke 2 wrote: »

FFS! How about men just having the cop on to exert enough self control not to ogle women. Perhaps the burka is needed to remove temptation from poor helpless men!!

Are you being serious? We are chemically programmed to be attracted to one another. Ogling isn't pleasant but it sure as hell isnt harassment in and of itself. If I'm being leered at, and feel uncomfortable about it- I say are you alright there? And project the discomfort back in his direction and go about my day/life and never think about it again.
Persistent ogling when you've told someone to stop is another story and I'd categorise that as intimidation.

brooke 2 · 22-10-2017 11:03PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ah in fairness I think what klaz was trying to say was...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fL-1kHxsavI

In even greater fairness, the original comment had to do with a woman sitting on a bus being subjected to the unwelcome stares of a man sitting across from her. The situation in the video bears no resemblance to that.

brooke 2 · 22-10-2017 11:12PM

anna080 wrote: »

That poster is a woman

:eek::o

anewme · 22-10-2017 11:26PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Great question A. Personally speaking? Nobody and I mean Nobody, man or woman should be harassed and most certainly not assaulted because of how they dress. However, if anyone, man or woman is given more attention because of how they dress(or act), that kinda goes with the territory. If I walked into a bar in Barcelona tonight wearing a Spanish flag Tee shirt that had the words Madrid forever, if anyone attacked me they would be dickheads, but I would have been unwise.

Many moons ago I knew a few gym types. Mad into their lifting weights and such. One guy was a monster and a roided one at that. Looked like Arnie on a good day. He was wearing a spray on white tee, where you could damn near see the bulging veins on his many muscles. He got off on that as did the women(and a couple of men) who dug that sorta thing in the group. And fair enough. Later on in the evening he complained about some woman at the bar who admired and got a bit handsie over his pecs. Was she a tool? Yes. Was he a bit thick to not see why he might have attracted such a tool? Equally yes.

On the other hand I do think that where does one draw the line. I mean pensioners have been raped often enough. But I would generally think rapists are another group of mental cases. Those who react to attention grabbing dress are a different breed as a general rule.

I get that and I suppose I'm equating it to my own situation. I also don't know what the posters definition of sexy clothes are.

I wear a lot of work "blouses" or shirts. White, light enough material, not see through but definitely see a bra outline. They are not sexy, in my opinion, they are workwear. I dont see why I shoukd have to wear a coat or jacket or shapeless blob top in the office in case someone could see a bra outline through my top.

I think that particular comment about showpieces, reminded me for some reason of working in the Mad Men office.

brooke 2 · 22-10-2017 11:30PM

Wibbs wrote: »

That's a common notion, but mostly a fallacious one IMHO. And it is hard for most men to see that difference. I mean if you're grabbed by the man jewels by some granny on a hen do that's gross, but if she was a babe, it would be more likely "well helllllooo". I would agree that women in general do feel more socially vulnerable. Physically too. I mean, let's face it, as a man neither the "granny" nor the "babe" can exactly pull you into a dark corner and feel you up without your say so. There is a marked difference there.

Came across a skit video re Education about Sexual Harassment in the Workplace. Set in Mad Men era. Attractive blonde is seated at her workplace.
Nerdy guy from the office nervously approaches her to ask for a date. She immediately reaches for the phone to complain to HR about harassment. Next arrives Tom Brady (New England Patriots), dressed only in a shirt and gleaming white bulging (very!) jocks! He asks the same girl for a date; without batting as much as an eyelid, she agrees to go with him. He asks her for her phone number which she hands to him on a note. He promptly places the note in his jocks!! :eek: Walks away nonchalantly.

Sexual politics is a minefield!!

brooke 2 · 22-10-2017 11:37PM

Sweetemotion wrote: »

Have you never looked at an attractive man in the street?

Yes. 'Look' being the operative word. I have better manners than to 'ogle'!!

hatrickpatrick · 23-10-2017 12:13AM

brooke 2 wrote: »

Yes. 'Look' being the operative word. I have better manners than to 'ogle'!!

I think we can all agree that staring at someone is rude regardless of why it's done. The problem, as always, is that there's no set or agreed upon definition of when a look becomes a stare - how many seconds must it go on for? - and clearly there are some who find even being glanced at offensive, which totally muddies the waters.

It's similar to the tweet a few pages back about the TSA agent. I think we can all - men and women - agree that persistently hassling somebody with sexual advances when you've been clearly rejected is a disgraceful way to behave. If we could all agree on this as the definition of sexual harassment, there would be almost no debate about it. The problem is when some people push it beyond that to encompass simply expressing interest in somebody without knowing in advance that it isn't reciprocated - this can never meet the definition of harassment, but some people would clearly like it to, or else would like to impose upon society designated zones or situations in which merely expressing interest would be unacceptable. Personally I would 100% oppose this simply because it is unnecessarily closing off avenues for people, male and female, to potentially find happy relationships. But it's very obvious that there are some people who very much want this to be the new norm.

As I said previously, sure, a lot of relationships are formed using dating apps or through introduction by mutual friends. But some of the happiest couples I know got together initially by one of them just seeing the other, liking the look of them, and straight up asking them out. If that can be regarded as sexual harassment these days, perhaps because of the situation or because of the position held by either of the individuals involved, to me that's just incredibly depressing, because I can list all of the happy relationships among people I know which wouldn't be able to exist at all under those circumstances.

The point is, the whole issue of sexual harassment is very difficult to quantify, and it's being ruined by the people who want to impose such insanely restrictive rules on when and how people can express a sexual interest in another person as to ensure that the debate descends into utter farce.

If I could offer an analogy here, it's like when the medical lobby keeps reducing the amount of alcohol that they regard as acceptable without being defined as a binge - they could be taken seriously if they talked about reasonable moderation, but now that they've decided that three pints of beer in one evening out counts as alcoholism, they have pushed the debate into farce and ensured that most people are just switching off to health warnings because they've become so ridiculously restrictive. Sexual harassment is facing a similar problem - when people hear the phrase "sexual harassment" in this day and age, their first thought is not about somebody being persistently sleazy and hassling somebody after having been rejected, their first thought is that it could easily be another eejit who thinks that being asked out for coffee in the wrong circumstances should be regarded as a crime against humanity.

All debates around changing society's behaviour have to be based around realistic parameters of how people live their lives. The vast majority of people do not want to live in a society in which expressing a sexual interest in another person can be regarded as doing something wrong unless it meets an increasingly narrow set of criteria about when, where, and between who it happens. Because this is pushed frequently among those who talk about harassment, the whole subject ends up not being taken seriously.

Another example would be sexual assault statistics and alcohol - most people do not agree with or believe that somebody who is drunk is automatically incapable of consenting to sex, so when consensual-but-drunken sex is included in the definition of sexual assault, the entire conversation around sexual assault gets completely derailed. In other words, when the word "rape" comes up and people don't know whether that refers to sex where no consent was given, or sex which may even have been initiated by a drunken individual who regretted (as we all do from time to time) his or her drunken antics the following morning, the entire conversation about rape becomes far less clear cut than it should be. We all know that rape is unacceptable, but the definition of it is being stretched to include normal, everyday behaviours that most people cannot get behind. Sexual harassment is similar - it's unacceptable, but not if its definition includes everyday, innocuous behaviours such as "looking at an attractive person as they walk past" or "politely asking someone out in an unconventional scenario for doing so".

Outlaw Pete · 23-10-2017 12:26AM

brooke 2 wrote: »

In even greater fairness, the original comment had to do with a woman sitting on a bus being subjected to the unwelcome stares of a man sitting across from her. The situation in the video bears no resemblance to that.

Yes, but klaz was referencing a specific way of dressing........ not that woman on bus example.

Deleted User wrote: »

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them.

This kinda thing (this is the last time I'm bailing you out klaz

):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ty4PhRWt1hU

Bambi985 · 23-10-2017 12:55AM

I think being everything from stared at to ogled by the opposite sex is part of the experience of being a woman at a certain stage of her life (youth, most prominently) and something that's not going to change any time soon.

I'd never categorise that as sexual assault or harassment and IME most women develop tools and strategies to deal with male attention as they get older - from revelling in it when it's wanted i.e dolled up on a night out and chatting to an attractive guy, to making it clear when it's not i.e reacting with hostility to that pervy-uncle type having a gawk on the tube.

If I see a guy ogling me inappropriately whether it's an executive in a boardroom or a nasty type on the tube, I'll stare him down until it's clear that it's very much unwelcome and I won't be intimidated into taking it. I have no problem being as impolite and confrontational as I feel is necessary. 99.99% of the time that kills the behaviour very quickly, but someone venturing beyond my boundaries at that point is what I would consider sexual harassment.

B0jangles · 23-10-2017 07:17AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Agreed. But then there's also clothing/bra's which seek to draw the attention of others to that area.

If a woman dresses in a manner that promotes her breasts as showpieces, then she hasn't a real objection to men staring at them. If she doesn't want that attention, wear a coat, or some other article of clothing that covers her breasts. Or wear a bra that doesn't emphasize their size/shape through her clothes. It's like the women who wear a top, and the bra can be seen very easily through that top, and then complains that men are staring.

Women do have a responsibility for their own appearance. If you're going to dress sexy, you're going to get attention. Postive and negative attention.

It's frankly bizarre that I have to explain this to an actual adult but get this:

Breasts aren't detachable.

Women get issued with just the one set, we don't have discreet, petite ones for daytime wear and a more dramatic pair for nights out.

If a woman has larger breasts that is not an excuse for having a good old stare, and she shouldn't be expected to wear a bloody coat just to avoid being stared at.

also

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Ah in fairness I think what klaz was trying to say was...

I can't help but notice that there is a bit of a pattern forming over the last few days of Klaz having to have his more 'unusual' opinions helpfully explained away by other posters.
If that kept happening to me, I either have a hard look at my opinions or the way I expressed them.

__..__ · 23-10-2017 07:49AM

professore wrote: »

I think it's at least 20 years since I saw a girl being wolf whistled. Does this still happen? If so why have I never seen it?

I did it about 18 years ago. Definitely less than 20 years.

I was crossing the road this morning and there was a girl wearing hotpants jogging. My eyes followed her hotpants and a car beeped the horn at me for nearly walking out in front of it, while I was distracted. The girl in hot pants turned around and swore at the driver and gave him the finger. Must have been in my defence. Fair play to her.

I wonder if she tweeted #METOO
But was it about the driver whondid nothing wrong except probably save a life, or me, who she didn't see at all looking at her hotpants thinking jesus they look very tight for jogging.

By the way I have to declare here that she was in no way attractive. It was.ourely that someone would jog in hotpants that distracted me.

__..__ · 23-10-2017 08:26AM

..

__..__ · 23-10-2017 08:28AM

I wish people would stop looking at my eyes unless they are in front of my face speaking to me. That seriously makes me very uncomfortable.
And no way can anyone tell me what I am or am not oggling if they aren't looking at my eyes.

professore · 23-10-2017 08:36AM

neonsofa wrote: »

professore wrote: »

Well maybe because decent men are the most unappreciated members of modern society? The ones that risk their lives, bust their asses every day to provide for their loved ones without complaining or ever looking for recognition or reward. No. They are all evil rapists.

But those men are decent for the reasons you list above, not purely due to the fact that they didn't harass a woman on a night out. You're complaining that men are viewed as evil rapists yet you told another poster that she should post on twitter thanking men for not grabbing her on nights out. Basically saying that men should be applauded and hailed as decent men when they don't harass and rape women. It makes no sense. Can you not see why i am confused by your posts??

I read newspaper articles about women committing all sorts of horrendous crimes like murdering their children and sexually assaulting minors in the classroom, but yet it's no problem to say how wonderful women are. Why are men different?

snowflaker · 23-10-2017 08:38AM

Bodily autonomy means a person has control over whom or what uses their body, for what, and for how long.

professore · 23-10-2017 08:45AM

https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/i-was-sexually-harassed-says-rt-weather-presenter-joanna-donnelly-36249564.html

This kind of thing is what pisses people off. I'm not referring to the anonymous letter, I'm referring to the "sexual harrassment" of some guy asking her out a few times and she saying no to him. Nothing more. Who has this not happened to, male or female, someone you don't fancy chasing you?

Calls into question the credibility of her whole narrative. Then a mention of her book at the end. Makes a mockery of genuine cases.

__..__ · 23-10-2017 08:47AM

That that's cleared up so.
Making someone uncomfortable by looking at a particular part of them they don't like being looked at is their own problem.
I agree. I have and continue to work on my little traits.

snowflaker · 23-10-2017 08:47AM

You know that’s incorrect. It’s the literal nazis are socialists argument.

If you believed it you would also believe in the right to point your penis at people

professore · 23-10-2017 09:07AM

brooke 2 wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

That's a common notion, but mostly a fallacious one IMHO. And it is hard for most men to see that difference. I mean if you're grabbed by the man jewels by some granny on a hen do that's gross, but if she was a babe, it would be more likely "well helllllooo". I would agree that women in general do feel more socially vulnerable. Physically too. I mean, let's face it, as a man neither the "granny" nor the "babe" can exactly pull you into a dark corner and feel you up without your say so. There is a marked difference there.

Came across a skit video re Education about Sexual Harassment in the Workplace. Set in Mad Men era. Attractive blonde is seated at her workplace.
Nerdy guy from the office nervously approaches her to ask for a date. She immediately reaches for the phone to complain to HR about harassment. Next arrives Tom Brady (New England Patriots), dressed only in a shirt and gleaming white bulging (very!) jocks! He asks the same girl for a date; without batting as much as an eyelid, she agrees to go with him. He asks her for her phone number which she hands to him on a note. He promptly places the note in his jocks!! :eek: Walks away nonchalantly.

Sexual politics is a minefield!!

Proving once again that sexual harrassment is totally subjective. What one man can do is totally different to another. And consent doesn't come into it in this scenario either.

But this is never acknowledged.

Personally I think it's a cynical power thing by feminists. Make the rules but allow certain men carte blanche to break them at will with no consequences. Feminism doesn't apply to these men, they just go on having their way with lots of women and bragging to their friends about it how easy it is. Having to listen to women saying how "lovely" and "confident" these guys are. The same guys who really treat women like objects.

Like one younger guy I know who has (in his words) banged the boss's daughter (an open secret) and is now going to bang the boss's wife. Has banged half the women in the office.. Last office party the boss's wife was all over him. But I guess it's all OK right?

Other guys see this having being ignored and cheated on and think "Well that's how women want to be treated". Then they ask a girl out they fancy and it's sexual harrassment. Not saying it's right but explaining the thought process.

traveller0101 · 23-10-2017 09:16AM

Any person who tells you you can't look where you want is dangerous and a control freak. If you could read people's minds you would probably want to lock them up.

You don't get a choice who looks at you and who doesn't. Welcome to reality!

23-10-2017 09:17AM

I will admittedly acknowledge I don't understand why posters here get so offended by the idea that a woman is responsible for her clothing/physical appearance... Can't even discuss it for a moment without extreme examples thrown out as objections.

Not once did I say that staring at a woman's breasts was acceptable. I'm not seeking excuse other men's behavior either.

It just seems foolish to me that more consideration about your own appearance is not taken into account. This is not about most men. Yes, We are attracted to the female body. Biological imperatives, Social conditioning, advertising, movies, etc have all encouraged us to appreciate women based on their physical appearance. Most men are polite enough not to stare at a woman's body parts.

But the issue here is not about most men. It is once again about the minority for whom politeness is not important. They don't care about making the woman uncomfortable. This could be a cultural or religious thing (e.g. coming from a Muslim country or a very traditional society) or simply that they're assholes. I don't know, but your clothing choices will affect them.

Women should have the right to wear whatever they wish. I get that. I have zero problems with any of that. Just as men should have also the ability to wear whatever they wish. But the world is not a perfect place, and there are risks in how we appear to others.

Why is it so terrible to acknowledge those risks as being real... and the factors that cause the problems?

B0jangles · 23-10-2017 09:26AM

Deleted User wrote: »

I will admittedly acknowledge I don't understand why posters here get so offended by the idea that a woman is responsible for her clothing/physical appearance... Can't even discuss it for a moment without extreme examples thrown out as objections.

Not once did I say that staring at a woman's breasts was acceptable. I'm not seeking excuse other men's behavior either.

It just seems foolish to me that more consideration about your own appearance is not taken into account. This is not about most men. Yes, We are attracted to the female body. Biological imperatives, Social conditioning, advertising, movies, etc have all encouraged us to appreciate women based on their physical appearance. Most men are polite enough not to stare at a woman's body parts.

But the issue here is not about most men. It is once again about the minority for whom politeness is not important. They don't care about making the woman uncomfortable. This could be a cultural or religious thing (e.g. coming from a Muslim country or a very traditional society) or simply that they're assholes. I don't know, but your clothing choices will affect them.

Women should have the right to wear whatever they wish. I get that. I have zero problems with any of that. Just as men should have also the ability to wear whatever they wish. But the world is not a perfect place, and there are risks in how we appear to others.

Why is it so terrible to acknowledge those risks as being real... and the factors that cause the problems?

You've just made another argument for why women should wear burqas.

A fun effect of having that kind of dress code is that when women do choose to dress 'immodestly',and are harassed, they are told that they should have known better than to wear that type of clothing.

1. It's not on women to change their behaviour, it's on the men who behave badly.
2. Street harassment is rife in countries where women DO wear burqas/hijab, so it doesn't even work!

http://www.patheos.com/blogs/camelswithhammers/2010/06/the-burqa-doesnt-stop-sexual-harassment/

More than 60 per cent of the respondents — including females — suggested that scantily clad women were most at risk. But the study concluded that the majority of the victims of harassment were modestly dressed women wearing the hijab. Contrary to expectations, the male perpetrators made little distinction between women wearing a veil and those who were not. “We found that a veil does not protect women as we thought,” says Abu Al Komsan. “More than 75 per cent of women in Egypt are veiled but are still harassed. And 9 per cent wear the niqab — the complete face cover — so they are fully covered.”

While both men and women surveyed said that short skirts and tight clothes triggered harassment, Nora Khalid, 31, told Weekend Review: “All my female colleagues advised me to wear the hijab to spare myself any advances from passers-by, just to find that women in the hijab were the most frequent targets of unwanted comments and touching on the street.”

23-10-2017 09:34AM

B0jangles wrote: »

You've just made another argument for why women should wear burqas.

Actually, you're the one suggesting it. I didn't mention burqas at all.

B0jangles · 23-10-2017 09:39AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Actually, you're the one suggesting it. I didn't mention burqas at all.

You are arguing that men are on some level, biologically driven to stare at women. That women can prevent this by dressing in way which conceals their bodies.

The burqa is the logical conclusion of that line of reasoning.

(it doesn't work btw)

suicide_circus · 23-10-2017 09:41AM

Non see-through sunglasses on the men is far more particular.

23-10-2017 09:52AM

B0jangles wrote: »

You are arguing that men are on some level, biologically driven to stare at women. That women can prevent this by dressing in way which conceals their bodies.

I did state a few other reasons as to why men look at women's breasts, and that most men are able to not stare at them.

I simply pointed out that men are affected by the clothes that women wear, and some clothes do highlight the breasts region for attention. If they don't want that attention, they could dress differently.

The burqa is the logical conclusion of that line of reasoning.

Only by those objecting to the discussion.

cloudatlas · 23-10-2017 10:16AM

professore wrote: »

https://m.independent.ie/style/celebrity/celebrity-news/i-was-sexually-harassed-says-rt-weather-presenter-joanna-donnelly-36249564.html

This kind of thing is what pisses people off. I'm not referring to the anonymous letter, I'm referring to the "sexual harrassment" of some guy asking her out a few times and she saying no to him. Nothing more. Who has this not happened to, male or female, someone you don't fancy chasing you?

Calls into question the credibility of her whole narrative. Then a mention of her book at the end. Makes a mockery of genuine cases.

"I would say 'No, I'm not interested' and he would say 'well you're leading me on' and that I had smiled at him in a particular way.""

That's creepy as fuuuck in addition to the amount of times that she had to turn this nutter with a screw loose down.

Floppybits · 23-10-2017 10:26AM

From reading this thread all men will need to start wearing these 2 items of clothing.
Blinkers
Male burka

#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

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