#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

Permabear wrote: »

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Exactly. And I can completely understand why someone would look after themselves first. Maybe you're a saint, but I doubt it.

As ever instead if talking about the issue it quickly turns into this is the wrong way to get the message across. That quite frankly is a tired argument. If it is non violent and gets discussion going then it is indeed the right way to protest.

The issue is out there. We know it is happening a lot. Why not actually discuss it as opposed to some bull about if social media is the best way to discuss it.

I know it hurt me how many of my friends were affected. How many had had incidents. Can I solve the entire issue in one go? Absolutely not. I make my point clear and help ensure people realise it is wrong. If I ever end up a father or father figure I can help pass on the message.
None of my friends are expecting me to stop all the scumbags in the world. I can do what I can and more importantly I can not simply give out about women who come forward with their stories (which always happens-see this thread)

Wibbs wrote: »

I didn't;t say it was the only way. That's projection on your part. I suggested it might be a better way, alongside twitter if needs be.

You've been so incredibly derisive of the Twitter approach I find it hard to believe it's projection on my part that you think your recommended path is the only way. If you do in fact believe Twitter may have a part to play then the tone of your previous posts is quite bizarre.

Do you honestly believe that if Pitt, Paltrow, Jolie, Tarantino(and a few others) all at the height of their powers and more, huge cash making abilities had gone public Weinstein would have a job?

It would 100% depend on whether anyone would support them. It's unrealistic to think Tarantino would get a group of people together to accuse HW. Maybe a tad more believable that Pitt could have brought Jolie and Paltrow together to accuse HW. I don't think those three on their own could have brought him down. In fact I think he'd easily brush it off. And I think it absolutely could affect the accusers careers.

The first part of that sentence doesn't really square with the second part. For decades they ignored a serial harasser and rapist of women out of self interest. That's about as morally bankrupt as one could be. And many of these same muppets have openly campaigned on behalf of Roman Polanski, a convicted fugitive from the law rapist of a 13 year old girl.

This is about as high as my horse needs to be:


What puzzles me is why you think that level of hypocrisy is so easily explained, nay defended?

Well then there's a lot of morally bankrupt people about. Because all this harassment at the non-celebrity level has plenty of bystanders who did nothing too. One of the reasons I hear about why people do not believe these stories is that if they actually happened "oh I would have stepped in and stopped it and so would other men". In reality it doesn't happen. A friend of mine was harassed by a guy while waiting for a friend on the street a few weeks ago. Nobody standing around her told him to feck off.

Martina1991 wrote: »

Why would you want to ask someone that? Because they're afraid or embarrassed about it. They're confidence and self esteem might be shot from it and your ignorance isn't helping.

That reply doesn't answer what I asked! If they're afraid or embarrassed about it, they're certainly not going to tell me. You have hit the nail on the head though as to one of the reasons why someone may wish to keep an experience like that to themselves - because they are afraid or embarrassed about it. I know I was, and because I can understand a lot more about other people besides myself too, I'm not going to suggest you're ignorant for something you couldn't possibly have known about me. The reason I didn't say anything and the reason I don't say anything is because this particular "metoo" stuff? I don't think it's either the time nor the place for me to say "me too".

No one has asked me that. I've told my bf and one of my best friends whose male and they were shocked and disgusted and angry that it happens.

Exactly my point - nobody asked you about it, because it's generally not something anyone would ask. It's weird and inappropriate, and it's very likely to make someone feel incredibly uncomfortable to be asked anything even remotely like that, even in the context of a discussion about women's experiences throughout their lifetimes of being intimidated, harassed, verbally and sexually assaulted and abused by men. In order for anyone to know about it though, you had to tell them, you didn't just assume they should ask you, so why you think I should ask women I know have they ever experienced this behaviour from men is something I simply cannot get my head around. I don't see what useful purpose it could ever serve other than to make them feel incredibly uncomfortable. I'm ok with being there for them to listen to them if and when they ever feel ready to tell me. They own that decision and it is entirely up to them and within their control when and whom they choose to allow themselves to give that information about themselves to, because once it's out there, they have no control over that information about themselves any more.

Would you listen and believe me if I told you I'm disgusted and angry that it happens? People generally are, and that's why most people regard such behaviour as inappropriate. I'm not shocked by it though, nor am I shocked by the scale of the issue, which is much greater than any numbers of metoo hashtags (yes, even the fake ones, and before you register shock at the suggestion of fake accounts of inappropriate behaviour for validation, think of the numbers of fake tweets and accounts following any trending tragedy on social media!). I'm not shocked by it because I spent nearly 20 years researching and working with people who have been subjected to all manner of violent and sexual assaults and abuse. You couldn't possibly have known that about me either, and I still wouldn't suggest you were ignorant for not knowing because how could you possibly know? I chose not to tell you.

Strangers sharing their experiences might cause others (like you) to take your blinkers off and see that harassment is happening all around you.

Yeah, I get the idea of strangers sharing their experiences being something of a... well, shared experience for them, but me personally? I don't let my experience define who I am as a person, it doesn't. By now you've probably picked up on the fact that I don't wear blinkers, and I'm quite aware of what happens around me (peripheral vision is a bit awkward though I grant you :pac:), but because I'm aware of what happens around me, I'm also acutely aware of the fact that other people are too. They just may not wish you or I to know about their experiences, which is why I said the hashtagging and the social media validation may help what is but a vanishingly small minority of people who are actually affected by the issue, and also has the opposite of the intended effect by shaming people into silence who don't agree that there is any benefit for them to prostrate themselves in front of their peers.

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

There's a difference between talking about negative experiences in life because you're looking for help or because you want to be part of something which would lessen the chances of it happening to others..... and hashtagging for attention. That experiences of sexual assault are being reduced to the latest # just sums up today's narcissistic society. There is now social cache in having been sexually harassed / assaulted. I thought #shoutyourabortion was classless enough but this is on a par with it.

I feel sorry for any female (or male) that feels isolated in society and sees #metoo as a way for them to express themselves and maybe not feel as alone, my heart goes out to anyone like that, but I genuinely believe such cases to be around 1% of the total, if that. The rest are nothing but the usual attention seekers who post mindless nonsense about sexism on the daily. Spent a good while over the past few days reading a chunk of 'em and then taking a quick gander at the user's accounts and it's clear that's what's happening here.

So, even with regards to the genuine 1%, I still think they should give it a rest as those genuine voices will just get lost in the din anyway. They're mere needles in a haystack of self centered fashionable victimhood and they'd be much better off attending a support group or even posting in a dedicated forum where they could speak with other genuine victims, rather than have their experience of abuse get ignored and so man of them are.

I seen what looked like genuine references to sexual abuse get tweeted and after two days have 1 like, given that the user had little followers and there are so many people tweeting with this hashtag that so many don't get noticed. At least with Facebook, or a forum like PI here, how popular you are doesn't dictate how visible you are. Not so with Twitter and that's just another reason why it's really not the place for it.

Maybe you should pass out the exact correct way for women (and men) to discuss their experiences so that you don't have to deride 99% of them off as attention seekers?

You also seem to wonder why they feel they won't he believed. You don't believe most of them. Don't give me that bull about it being social media. Social media is how they can communicate to others that they are not alone without forcing people to do more yet research to find the right places?

Of course your own method is handy. Go point out there is a big issue in society over there where no one has to look at you. It is always the wrong way to speak up apparently. You don't want to see it then get off social media.

Permabear wrote: »

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I don't know much about the financial crisis. As far as I'm aware some bankers seemed to believe or hope it wouldn't go all tits up. I could understand these people. I believe there were others who were well aware of what was happening and there are recorded phone calls of them laughing about it. I wouldn't have any understanding of them. If Pitt, Streep etc. were laughing about sexual harassment to each other on the phone then that would make them ****s. I see it as similar to the Irish society that abuse was allowed flourish in. I don't think it occurred to these people to challenge the behaviour and I don't think that makes them terrible people. This is all way off topic by the way so that's all I have to say on Pitt and co.

Christy42 wrote: »

Maybe you should pass out the exact correct way for women (and men) to discuss their experiences so that you don't have to deride 99% of them off as attention seekers?

I already did. Pay attention:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

.....they'd be much better off attending a support group or even posting in a dedicated forum where they could speak with other genuine victims, rather than have their experience of abuse get ignored and so many of them are.

Christy42 wrote: »

You also seem to wonder why they feel they won't he believed. You don't believe most of them. Don't give me that bull about it being social media. Social media is how they can communicate to others that they are not alone without forcing people to do more yet research to find the right places?

You clearly speed read my post as I didn't vilify ALL of social media (as you are suggesting). In fact I did the opposite and highlighted good social media:

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

At least with Facebook, or a forum like PI here, how popular you are doesn't dictate how visible you are.

Maybe stick your glasses on next time you're reading my posts.

professore wrote: »

Well maybe because decent men are the most unappreciated members of modern society? The ones that risk their lives, bust their asses every day to provide for their loved ones without complaining or ever looking for recognition or reward. No. They are all evil rapists.

But those men are decent for the reasons you list above, not purely due to the fact that they didn't harass a woman on a night out. You're complaining that men are viewed as evil rapists yet you told another poster that she should post on twitter thanking men for not grabbing her on nights out. Basically saying that men should be applauded and hailed as decent men when they don't harass and rape women. It makes no sense. Can you not see why i am confused by your posts??

Wibbs wrote: »

There's the other worrying aspect to online accusations and from the victims point of view. If a woman accuses a man on twitter or wherever it's likely to prejudice any case she might bring and a defence lawyer for the accused would have a field day with that.

Few have named anyone that I have seen. They have simply reported what happened without names. Again this has turned into claiming that the women are lying which it always does (1 poster had it at 99% attention seeking) and another is not discussing anything but false accusations. Anything to avoid discussing that there might be a large issue here that people are uncomfortable discussing.

Permabear wrote: »

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A few idiots does not make 99%. Are you denying there is an issue here where a lot of women have had legitimate issues?

Where do you put the number of attention seekers?