#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

22-10-2017 03:13PM

Christy42 wrote: »

I think it is more when/if guys talk about stuff like grabbing pussy you point out it is not ok (it happens so obviously plenty don't know it is not ok) or if you are a role model you take the role seriously in this regard. Obviously not these won't apply to everyone. The point is to stop it from happening in the long run, not stop it as it happens.

I haven't had a conversation with male friends like that since I was 15. I can't imagine too many men speaking like that with their male friends, although I'm sure some do. Some.

I have seen nothing about stepping in to physically stop an altercation between strangers which seems to be entirely your own assumption.

Okay. so men are not supposed try to stop perceived sexual harassment by another man to a woman. Ok. Gotcha.

Nor have I seen anything about all advances by men being sexual assault. That again is your own assumption all stories I have seen have been about unwanted physical contact, frequently with no interaction between the people involved beforehand.

I said sexual harassment. Not sexual assault. There is a bit of a difference.

But you missed my actual point. It was about interfering, but it's fine since you've pointed out earlier that men should not try to stop another man from behaving badly towards a woman.

keith_sixteen · 22-10-2017 03:14PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

I mean, you know I'm not fan of this "all men are dangerous" ****e, but your general attitude about this is kinda well, dickish. And I mean that in the nicest way.

ah would you give over. Who is this "awareness campaign" aimed at? What are it's aims? How will the success of this campaign be judged?

endacl · 22-10-2017 03:16PM

Hooks Golf Handicap wrote: »

What says Boards ?, a good thing or a bad thing.

Thing. Definitely.

22-10-2017 03:17PM

Martina1991 wrote: »

Promoting? It's creating awareness.

Promotion means creating awareness.

So you're saying for every night I go out and I haven't been assaulted I should put up FB status saying "Thanks to all the great guys out tonight you didn't assault me".

Nope. Although it might be better than generalising that men are grabbing your ass when you go out.

Ok. If you don't know the difference between flirting with a woman and sexual harassment you have a big problem.

Better?

Much better actually.

kylith · 22-10-2017 03:21PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Frankly yes.

Shall we PM you then? Cos, y'know, we should talk about it, but apparently not on social media.

Crea · 22-10-2017 03:31PM

Deleted User wrote: »

I agree with you. I suspect the vast majority of male posters here agree with you.

And it's not as if you walk into a club or bar, and every guy grabs you. Every night. Every time you go out. But that's what you and campaigns like this are promoting.

I've never grabbed a strangers ass. I've never wolf whistled at a woman. I don't shout crude comments at women. When I approach a woman for dating, if she refuses, I apologize politely and move away.

But this "men" outrage paints all men or even simply the majority of men as behaving badly. I don't see these campaigns shouting thanks to the men who don't behave badly... or highlighting the need to identify the minority that behaves badly.

Instead, it's "men".

It actually doesn't. Women telling their individual stories does not label all men but it does show how widespread the behaviour is.
An interesting consequence of this campaign for me is the voices if the male and female wait staff in pubs and restaurants. This is a daily occurrence in their work place. I have examined my own behaviour when I have heard suggestive comments made by women to the young male staff. Hopefully this campaign will highlight to the employers that they need to protect their staff from this and to men and women not to carry on like a bad Bennie Hill movie when out.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 03:34PM

George Colossal Tomato wrote: »

In fairness to him there was a Twitter of an actress earlier in the thread very offended about being asked for her number.

I think it's dodgy when someone working asks a customer/client/person on the street for their number randomly.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 03:35PM

keith_sixteen wrote: »

ah would you give over. Who is this "awareness campaign" aimed at? What are it's aims? How will the success of this campaign be judged?

Nobody said it was a centralized top down campaign.

keith_sixteen · 22-10-2017 03:38PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

Nobody said it was a centralized top down campaign.

So what is it?

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 03:44PM

keith_sixteen wrote: »

So what is it?

Groups of women sharing their experiences. It's probably being called a campaign because it can be perceived to have a central message and loose goals I.e. raise awareness and contribute to the ending of the harassment.

Gbear · 22-10-2017 03:46PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

One could argue that speaking to people face to face will allow genuine understanding of what occurred and give you space to talk about the extent and nuance of what has happened, as well as more general experiences ones' peer group has had.
I've had these conversations with some of my female friends. I'm not close enough with them to expect total candour but it does give me a more intuitive sense of what it's like to face these situations.

On the other hand, a hashtag says that the people using the hashtag have maybe had something bad, of a sexual nature, happen to them.
The vagueness that makes it more palatable to engage with by avoiding going into uncomfortable details also means it lumps the inoccuous in with the apalling, but further to that, its credibility is undermined given the medium of social media's proclivity for narcissism.

Another issue, which I think is more important, is that social media doesn't really penetrate as a form of communication.

If you see an add that says "there's famine in Darfur", you'll probably shrug your shoulders and say "sure isn't that awful", and then promptly forget about it 30 seconds later.
If you see an add that shows starving babies it may well strike you enough for you to donate or at least think about it.
If you actually go and visit and live the experiences it'll haunt you for a lifetime.
I don't think social media connects with people. We think of it as a form of communication but it's so disconnected from how we actually communicate with other people that I think it doesn't really register.

If people take the idea as encouragement to talk to their peers about their experiences or if the hubbub makes people ignorant of the situation put some thought into it, then maybe that's enough.
As with a lot of things though, if it takes little effort to do, you probably can't expect much in the way of results, and the broader criticism is that it's possibly just a case of people tricking themselves into thinking they're doing something useful.

Wibbs wrote: »

And what will it achieve? Sweet eff all. Just "being listened to" on twitter might make some victims feel better because they're not alone and yes that's not to be sniffed at and it might make a few guys who catcall stop and think, but it will do nothing to stop the actual predators, the Weinstiens of this world. Predators that are almost certainly still working and abusing in Hollywood and fashion and music. Predators are different. No amount of shame will stop them. They have to be reported, caught and the key thrown away.

Well the thing there is that it's not black and white.
There's a sliding scale for all forms of ****ty behaviour.

What I'd like to see is some data about what men are actually doing.

If 5% of the male population are committing 99% of the sexual assaults or other related activities, then it's more accurate to blame no men for the problem than it is to blame all men.

It's almost certainly not that cut and dry though.
It might be more like 2% are seriously dangerous scumbags, another 15% are selfish pricks and in the right circumstances (particularly with drink involved) might do something to someone and then there's another 40% who might be generally on the right track but have ****ed up at some point (perhaps again because of drink).

If #metoo, or any similar campaign was to accomplish anything, it'd be with that 40%. People who are decent and open to introspection.

Obviously those numbers are pulled out of my arse, but the point is that we can't purge the obvious criminals in positions of power and then say, "yippy, we've solved sexual abuse!".

Sonics2k · 22-10-2017 04:03PM

keith_sixteen wrote: »

ah would you give over. Who is this "awareness campaign" aimed at? What are it's aims? How will the success of this campaign be judged?

It's safe to say it's aimed at both women and men.

For women, I guess it's to say "It's okay to speak out about this".
For men, then I guess it's to say "This has happened to more than you think it's happened to, and probably someone you know".

It's really not possible to say how anyone can measure the success of it, much like any other awareness campaign that's happened over the years, whether it's been about HIV, LGBT issues, Mental Health, or even famines in various countries.

What I truly don't get is the apparent frustration, anger or disgust some men are displaying towards this. Why does it bother you so much that some women are sharing their experiences?

Much like anything else on the internet, you can scroll past and ignore it, just like I do with any article from Vox Media or anything related to GamerGate.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 04:03PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's kinda sad dude.

You want them to talk to people about their experiences, but not on social media as an awareness campaign?

Which has the more practical value? Hashtagging on twitter about something that happened/happens or telling those around you, men and women when it does. That's the message that should be promoted. Not suffer in silence twitter while changing bugger all in the long term. And if men™ have a responsibility to stop other men/themselves then surely - and brace yourselves, smelling salts at the ready - women™ should bear as much responsibility for telling them when it is happening? But nope it seems.

Let's regard that repellent greasy producer in the news. If the message was gotten across to women and men when younger that if they're harassed they should go straight to def con one and report it and others listen to those reports and act on them, that creep wouldn't have had the chance to abuse and intimidate women(and some men on the intimidation front) for the guts of three decades. Instead it seems it was an open secret in the business. As Ashley Judd said that when women in that business got together they spoke openly of it and had done so for years. Now fair play, she was first outa the gate to support her after Rose McGowan took a stand and the creep is getting roasted. But all those women who knew and weren't directly victims and especially the men who knew of this open secret and did nothing bear some responsibility for that rat bastard getting away with it for so long

Listening to victims is a given, but if victims won't step up and speak, then it's a case of a vigilant ear hearing nothing and that requires women(and men when it happens) to speak up and not on twitter.

Outlaw Pete · 22-10-2017 04:13PM

professore wrote: »

You think men don't have many of the same threats as you do and are much more likely to be physically assaulted than you are?

Well, as the saying goes: misery loves company but it hates competition.

You can talk about how guys fear other men when out and about but it never seems to resonate. I live in a rough part of Dublin for close to 15 years now and every.single.night I walk down my street I am fearful of being hit from behind as I put the key in my door given that it's happened twice around here. Same with walking down roads alone and hearing foot steps behind me, or seeing a group of lads walking in my direction, given how many men have been set upon and beaten senseless through no fault of their own (example). Indeed I have often changed route to avoid groups of men, particularly groups of drunk men.

Do I blame all men or think men (specifically) need to do something? No, because men and women run society and so whatever needs to be done needs to be done together. It's a societal problem and just because one gender may be more prone to behave in a certain way, that doesn't mean that the root cause of it and the solution to it, have nothing to do with the other gender. Quite the contrary in fact. There is a breakdown in western society when it comes to respecting authority and women absolutely have played a part in that in the same way men have. Indeed some would say (Warren Farrell) for example, that because of how much third wave feminism has shaped western society in the last forty years or more, that women have in fact had more of an influence on how society is now functioning.

Wibbs wrote: »

On more than a few occasions on nights out I have witnessed one woman accusing a guy in a group of being creepy and it spread like a virus among most of the other women there(usually increasing in intensity) so the guy yep defo a creep. And the men(who they looked to) got the guy to leave. In the majority of cases the "creep" didn't do a damn thing....

Witnessed the same thing umpteen times. Esther Vilar spoke of it in her book The Manipulated Man and was vilified for it. One of the few books on how men are manipulated to behave in certain ways. Not a chance anyone would have the ovaries to write a book such as it today.

B0jangles wrote: »

The last is the most contentious - if you know one of your friends gets obnoxious and 'handsy' when he's drunk - call that out, don't just laugh awkwardly and say that 'he's a tosser but he's a good guy really'. Shame is a powerful motivator. Even if he still thinks it's just good fun, he'll hopefully stop doing it when he's around you and that's a start.

Men do that all the time.

Not a huge fan of these videos (as many are set up with actors - the Joey Salads ones for example) but these two seem to be devoid of that and just look at the difference in reactions to a woman being harassed, to a man being harassed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egeea61eafs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmW8nzwd1rY

In fact, I can't think of anything which is frowned upon more than a man touching a woman without her permission. I have seen rows start after a man has even tried to speak to a woman after she has told him to fcuk off. Guys shame their mates ALL the time for this also. If for no other reason than that it would scare women off. I have no idea where you get this idea from that it's not shamed behavior. It very much is.

keith_sixteen · 22-10-2017 04:19PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

What I truly don't get is the apparent frustration, anger or disgust some men are displaying towards this. Why does it bother you so much that some women are sharing their experiences?

Much like anything else on the internet, you can scroll past and ignore it, just like I do with any article from Vox Media or anything related to GamerGate.

Oh I am not frustrated, angered or disgusted by any of this. Much less bothered. I want to be clear - someone started a thread asking if this is good or bad. If everyone who had a negative view of a this (or any subject) simply scrolled past, then there is no discussion. Why even ask the question?

By the same logic, you are quite free to scroll past my post.

And having a negative view of it does not equate to frustration, anger or disgust.

Rather, I am replying to the question such that, when I consider this "campaign" I see it as nothing more than the latest attention seeking craze on a platform filled with narcissists.

It will end as quickly as it began, people will forget it was ever a thing, and sexual harassment will continue to be as much of a problem as any of society's other ills.

For you to call someone out as a dick really marks you out as someone holding some sort of frustration or anger. And I mean that in the nicest possible way.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 04:19PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Which has the more practical value? Hashtagging on twitter about something that happened/happens or telling those around you, men and women when it does. That's the message that should be promoted. Not suffer in silence twitter while changing bugger all in the long term. And if men™ have a responsibility to stop other men/themselves then surely - and brace yourselves, smelling salts at the ready - women™ should bear as much responsibility for telling them when it is happening? But nope it seems.

So there is only one approach to take and it's your approach and any other approach that is not as good as your approach must be derided.

Maybe it would be better if all these women told the men in their lives personally and not on twitter. There are reasons people don't feel comfortable doing that. You've heard already why women in the thread did not want to tell their parents. Getting them upset. Their father potentially threatening violence to the perpetrator. Having their freedom curtailed etc.

I personally was not aware of the sheer level of harassment women faced until I saw a similar type of social media campaign a few years back.

So just because posting on social media is not the perfect answer to the problem does not mean it's useless. And doesn't mean that your imperfect solution is any better really.

Let's regard that repellent greasy producer in the news. If the message was gotten across to women and men when younger that if they're harassed they should go straight to def con one and report it and others listen to those reports and act on them, that creep wouldn't have had the chance to abuse and intimidate women(and some men on the intimidation front) for the guts of three decades. Instead it seems it was an open secret in the business. As Ashley Judd said that when women in that business got together they spoke openly of it and had done so for years. Now fair play, she was first outa the gate to support her after Rose McGowan took a stand and the creep is getting roasted. But all those women who knew and weren't directly victims and especially the men who knew of this open secret and did nothing bear some responsibility for that rat bastard getting away with it for so long

Listening to victims is a given, but if victims won't step up and speak, then it's a case of a vigilant ear hearing nothing and that requires women(and men when it happens) to speak up and not on twitter.

Ah cmon there was a serious risk of having your career ruined if you were the first to try it. You've no idea if other women will support you, his lawyers could destroy you, and his media contacts could be full of "she was difficult to work with" stories.

It's like being a gay actor. Nobody knew if it could ruin your leading man status until someone tried. And who wants to be the test case?

Even if you think these women and men who knew bear responsibility you must be able to understand the human psychology as to why they didn't speak up until now.

kylith · 22-10-2017 04:21PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Let's regard that repellent greasy producer in the news. If the message was gotten across to women and men when younger that if they're harassed they should go straight to def con one and report it and others listen to those reports and act on them, that creep wouldn't have had the chance to abuse and intimidate women(and some men on the intimidation front) for the guts of three decades.

Courtney Love came out and all but said it directly on TV; she was reportedly blackballed by CAA for it. A woman publically said that women should avoid HW and the reaction was for her agency to punish her. Why? Because he was a powerful man. Because he could make or break careers.

Why didn't other women come out? Because if they did then he could ensure they never worked again, and because if it went to court he would have the money to drag it out over years, financially and mentally ruining them. Instead they warned other women off privately, but then they face the dilemma that if you piss off Weinstein he can hurt you via your career.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 04:27PM

Outlaw Pete wrote: »

Well, as the saying goes: misery loves company but it hates competition.

You can talk about how guys fear other men when out and about but it never seems to resonate. I live in a rough part of Dublin for close to 15 years now and every.single.night I walk down my street I am fearful of being hit from behind as I put the key in my door given that it's happened twice around here. Same with walking down roads alone and hearing foot steps behind me, or seeing a group of lads walking in my direction, given how many men have been set upon and beaten senseless through no fault of their own (example). Indeed I have often changed route to avoid groups of men, particularly groups of drunk men.

Do I blame all men or think men (specifically) need to do something? .

The physical violence a man might face is nowhere near as pervasive as the general level of harassment a woman faces.

I've been seriously physically assaulted in a robbery once. I can think of maybe 1 situation every 2 years where some junkie type made me feel like he might attack me. That's about it. I'd say most men are the same and feel safe at work, in a nightclub, etc.

Yes we are subject to physical attacks and lower level harassment from scummers. But it's nowhere near the level of sexual stuff that women get.

And if you start a thread on an assault or harassment from a scumbag you'll get plenty of sympathy and agreement.

Sonics2k · 22-10-2017 04:40PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Which has the more practical value? Hashtagging on twitter about something that happened/happens or telling those around you, men and women when it does. That's the message that should be promoted. Not suffer in silence twitter while changing bugger all in the long term. And if men™ have a responsibility to stop other men/themselves then surely - and brace yourselves, smelling salts at the ready - women™ should bear as much responsibility for telling them when it is happening? But nope it seems.

Listening to victims is a given, but if victims won't step up and speak, then it's a case of a vigilant ear hearing nothing and that requires women(and men when it happens) to speak up and not on twitter.

Of course speaking out directly is better, but that's not always an option. There is genuine fear of repercussions for speaking out against abusers or sexual harassment and especially rape.

For a lot of people, it's easier to speak out about these things on social media, where there is a level of anonymity or at least separation from the people you're speaking to.

Plenty of men and women have spoken up publicly about abuse over the years, and they are constantly dismissed. Or they get high praise for a few weeks and then it flutters out in our overwhelmed and schizophrenic news cycle.

Again, I'm absolutely baffled by your apparent annoyance at people expressing their opinions or experiences on social media.

I get the annoyance at the "all men are rapists" stuff, because it's nonsense. I get the annoyance at over-reactive 3rd wave feminists who want nothing more than to play the victim, but in this very thread I have watched you actively dismiss someone who is expressing their own damn experiences with sexual harassment.

Admittedly, you're not rude, but you're kinda being a bit of a dick in your general tone and approach Wibbs.

Permabear · 22-10-2017 04:48PM

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Wibbs · 22-10-2017 04:53PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

So there is only one approach to take and it's your approach and any other approach that is not as good as your approach must be derided.

No, but at least I gave practical reasons for my approach.

Maybe it would be better if all these women told the men in their lives personally and not on twitter.

There's no maybe to it.

There are reasons people don't feel comfortable doing that. You've heard already why women in the thread did not want to tell their parents. Getting them upset. Their father potentially threatening violence to the perpetrator. Having their freedom curtailed etc.

Which is why I said what needs to be looked at and early on is changing the environment where such things occur. Again being practical.

So just because posting on social media is not the perfect answer to the problem does not mean it's useless. And doesn't mean that your imperfect solution is any better really.

The difference being that "my" plan if it were implemented would make an actual practical difference in stopping women being sexually assaulted, a twitter like this campaign almost certainly will not.

Even if you think these women and men who knew bear responsibility you must be able to understand the human psychology as to why they didn't speak up until now.

Oh I do and I reserve my blame for those who weren't going to lose out, those who were powerful. If Brad Pitt had gone public when Weinstein tried to grope up his girlfriend at the time Gwyneth Paltrow(or when he tried it on again with a later GF Angelina Jolie) he could have stopped the bastard in his tracks. This is Brad Pitt here. One of the most famous and rich and powerful - can green light a film - actors in the world. If he came out with it he would be listened to. And he's not the only one. Tarantino was very close to HV and had one of his GF's propositioned and he was the biggest ticket director on the go for many a year. If he had said WTF and went public HV would have been in serious trouble. This doesn't include other "stars" and powerful people in Hollywood. This floodgates of other women coming forth would have happened in the nineties, not 2017. But no the hypocritical bastards were happy to suck on his money flowing teat.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 04:55PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

Admittedly, you're not rude, but you're kinda being a bit of a dick in your general tone and approach Wibbs.

Disagreeing with some of the consensus and not automatically jumping in step and asking questions = bit of a dick? Noted. I'll wear the label happily in that case.

Sonics2k · 22-10-2017 04:59PM

Wibbs wrote: »

Disagreeing with some of the consensus and not automatically jumping in step and asking questions = bit of a dick? Noted. I'll wear the label happily in that case.

That's not what I said. By all means, disagree with anyone you wish, even if i don't quite understand why you don't like the concept of women speaking on social media. Hell, I'd safely say I largely agree with you in most other threads over the last few years.

Hell, I think this whole 'campaign' is a waste of time, but if it helps some people deal with their issues then go for it. It's not hurting anyone, doesn't cause any real problems and makes them feel that bit better.

Outlaw Pete · 22-10-2017 05:00PM

kylith wrote: »

"Women are having an issue with men's behaviour. What are women going to do about it?" Let me put it this way: we're not sexually harassing and assaulting ourselves, are we?

Eh, yeah, sometimes ye are. Example.

Could women have done something to stop that woman being raped? Or the raping of boys, how about that. Could women do more there? Are ye not shaming that stuff enough?

Or how about women who make false rape allegations'? Two more jailed in the UK this week (1,2).

That's in the UK though. Well, how about some Irish cases:

http://www.irishexaminer.com/archives/2016/1102/ireland/suspended-jail-term-for-woman-who-made-false-rape-report-428568.html
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/woman-made-false-rape-allegation-against-man-she-was-angry-with-court-34152990.html
http://connachttribune.ie/suspended-sentence-for-city-woman-for-false-rape-allegation/
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/suspended-jail-sentence-over-false-rape-claim-1.461293
http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/false-rape-claim-woman-has-sentence-suspended-25917481.html
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/suspended-sentence-and-fine-for-student-who-made-wicked-false-rape-claim-650224.html
http://www.wexfordpeople.ie/news/woman-handed-suspended-sentence-after-pleading-guilty-to-manslaughter-27702140.html
http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/mum-55-who-made-fake-rape-claim-was-more-mad-than-bad-27971303.html

Now, if a guy said in response to the above:

Men are having an issue with WOMEN'S behaviour. What are men going to do about it??? Let me put it this way: we're not falsely accusing ourselves of rape, are we? What are YE going to do about it??

That wouldn't make much sense would it? And so what makes you think it's okay to say this kind of thing in the other direction then?

All this stuff you are talking about (and other women with their #metoo'ing) is not an issue for men to find solutions to (exclusively at any rate) no more than crimes that women are prone to committing are issues which just women need to find solutions to. They are societal issues and as such we are equally responsible for dealing with them.

I think it's a good point to remind some folks (given that this was all kicked off the Harvey Weinstein situation) that some women played a HUGE part in enabling that man's behaviour. Many of them even took cash settlements in exchange for keeping their mouths shut. Yet apparently it's just men who need to address how they conduct themselves.

Permabear · 22-10-2017 05:03PM

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LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 05:04PM

Wibbs wrote: »

The difference being that "my" plan if it were implemented would make an actual practical difference in stopping women being sexually assaulted, a twitter like this campaign almost certainly will not.

I don't know where you're getting your certainty from. As I mentioned earlier a guy I know was told of his gfs experiences and he tried to frame it as a "dublin thing".

Being confronted by a huge volume of these experiences through social media is one way to show its a universal experience for women.

MAYBE your way is better. MAYBE the social media way is better. Maybe they will both raise awareness. This idea you're peddling that your way is the only way and your certainty about it is nonsense.

Oh I do and I reserve my blame for those who weren't going to lose out, those who were powerful. If Brad Pitt had gone public when Weinstein tried to grope up his girlfriend at the time Gwyneth Paltrow(or when he tried it on again with a later GF Angelina Jolie) he could have stopped the bastard in his tracks. This is Brad Pitt here. One of the most famous and rich and powerful - can green light a film - actors in the world. If he came out with it he would be listened to. And he's not the only one. Tarantino was very close to HV and had one of his GF's propositioned and he was the biggest ticket director on the go for many a year. If he had said WTF and went public HV would have been in serious trouble. This doesn't include other "stars" and powerful people in Hollywood. This floodgates of other women coming forth would have happened in the nineties, not 2017. But no the hypocritical bastards were happy to suck on his money flowing teat.

Please no actor is unsinkable. Plenty of once a-listers have faded into obscurity and it's easy enough to become the butt of Hollywood jokes. If Pitt came forward independently and said two of his former partners had been harassed by Weinstein it wouldn't be hard to muddy his repuation. Sure the reason these people didn't do anything was self interest but getting up on your high horse and painting them as awful people just shows a complete lack of understanding in my opinion.

LLMMLL · 22-10-2017 05:08PM

Permabear wrote: »

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Judd and beckinsale are good examples actually. Neither of them are making big hits anymore. It's easy to fade in Hollywood. HW could easily have speeded up that fate if he chose to.

Wibbs · 22-10-2017 05:14PM

Sonics2k wrote: »

That's not what I said. By all means, disagree with anyone you wish, even if i don't quite understand why you don't like the concept of women speaking on social media.

Not just women S. I find pretty much any ArseBook or Hashtag "campaign" to be more about ego stroking, echo chambering, oneupmanship in support, victimhood and "virtue signalling"(lord I hate that term but it works for me here), even if it starts off with the best intentions.

Hell, I think this whole 'campaign' is a waste of time, but if it helps some people deal with their issues then go for it.

Which I did say S. As for not hurting anybody, I have a real issue with the potential for accusations levelled at men as part of this hashtag and social media in general. And an accusation of rape is about as bad an accusation one could throw out and it's bound to stick, even if exonerated, the doubt will follow the accused. That's mob rule and why we built up a huge legal layer over the last thousand years to fight that. OK S say someone accused you of sexual assault in a tweet. What could you do about it once it's out? Not a lot. Sue them for slander or whatever the legal term is? OK let's imagine you win, chances are high nada will happen to your accuser and that smell will hang around you for life.

Permabear · 22-10-2017 05:15PM

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Wibbs · 22-10-2017 05:20PM

LLMMLL wrote: »

This idea you're peddling that your way is the only way and your certainty about it is nonsense.

I didn't;t say it was the only way. That's projection on your part. I suggested it might be a better way, alongside twitter if needs be.

Please no actor is unsinkable. Plenty of once a-listers have faded into obscurity and it's easy enough to become the butt of Hollywood jokes. If Pitt came forward independently and said two of his former partners had been harassed by Weinstein it wouldn't be hard to muddy his repuation.

Do you honestly believe that if Pitt, Paltrow, Jolie, Tarantino(and a few others) all at the height of their powers and more, huge cash making abilities had gone public Weinstein would have a job?

Sure the reason these people didn't do anything was self interest but getting up on your high horse and painting them as awful people just shows a complete lack of understanding in my opinion.

The first part of that sentence doesn't really square with the second part. For decades they ignored a serial harasser and rapist of women out of self interest. That's about as morally bankrupt as one could be. And many of these same muppets have openly campaigned on behalf of Roman Polanski, a convicted fugitive from the law rapist of a 13 year old girl.

This is about as high as my horse needs to be:

What puzzles me is why you think that level of hypocrisy is so easily explained, nay defended?

#MeToo has caught on, good thing or bad thing ?

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