Eircode - Why did they bother?

fly_agaric · 21-10-2017 05:03PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

There's more than Dublin and the big cities on a map of Ireland.

True, whatever about exact structure of the code, it should be most useful for these parts of the map because it ties down an (often vague) rural address to a specific location.

I suppose some people may not appreciate that feature when it comes to dealing with officialdom etc, but it should be very good for getting stuff delivered to the right place, directing emergency services etc. in rural locations.

The car reg system works very well too, even if they're a bit long.

imo its a very poor system for populous counties (Dublin, Cork, so you get the D/C and then big long string of squashed up digits after it) and the daft 3 digits for the year made it harder to read again. It should have used letters as well to shorten length.

Mountainsandh · 21-10-2017 05:09PM

Jaylah Low Kidnapper wrote: »

I call nonsense on that. I am in my 70s and very rural. I use Eircode regularly. My friends and neighbours use it too. We all find it such an improvement with regards to deliveries and emergency services. We also use it to find where a location we need to go to is.

Well I typed this with same neighbour up at my house, that's why he came into my head as an example, and he's not a dotty old man, simply, he has never had the need to and does not feel inclined now to use the internet. Maybe your sample demographics is different from mine.
The neighbours of mine who use the internet mostly have jobs in town where internet is used, but there are many housewives who have no need for that other than the odd online purchase.

I have subscribed to Addresspal at my local post office, and a year later, there's still only myself and one other user locally.

All codes in a postal area begin with the first three digits, so we only really have to note the final four digits. We can remember phone numbers, so we can remember eircodes. It is not rocket science to use and are as logical as phone numbers.

This part from your quote is interesting, as you were typing I was just checking on this due to the other poster's mention of it.
So there I am, a computer literate, avid user of the internet, and I know my Eircode and offer it whenever I think that might be useful, and I hadn't registered that part at all.
So I double checked and surprise, oh yeah, so the houses near me also have the same prefix.

Great, except do you know why I didn't register that ?
Simple : it's still random numbers, with no relation to anything we used before, and they're not being used currently.
None of my local services boast of delivering to the "letternumbernumber" area, no one in my local community alert meetings has mentioned that "letternumbernumber" houses were more vulnerable to burglaries, no one knows they're in the "letternumbernumber" area.

If one of my son's friends' Mum told me "oh it's easy to find my house, I'm in the "otherletternumbernumber" area, that wouldn't mean a thing to me.

On the other hand, if I was in France and someone told me they live in the 26240 area, I would straight away know the general area, internet or not.

irishgeo · 21-10-2017 05:16PM

driverless cars and taxis will love it. a code that directs you right to the door.

PDVerse · 21-10-2017 05:25PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Yeah.
Nice blog.

Of course the API thing seems to be happening mostly around Dublin, and I wonder, do you think, now take a minute to think, right, could it be a handful of delivery companies or taxis clocking up all the searches ?

Yeah. Thought so.
Not a great sample of people.

From the above website, message to their target customers :

What you're suffering from is known as The Backfire Effect. I wish you well.

Mountainsandh · 21-10-2017 05:30PM

PDVerse wrote: »

What you're suffering from is known as The Backfire Effect. I wish you well.

My point was that the general population are not using it.

murpho999 · 21-10-2017 05:38PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Well I typed this with same neighbour up at my house, that's why he came into my head as an example, and he's not a dotty old man, simply, he has never had the need to and does not feel inclined now to use the internet. Maybe your sample demographics is different from mine.
The neighbours of mine who use the internet mostly have jobs in town where internet is used, but there are many housewives who have no need for that other than the odd online purchase.

I have subscribed to Addresspal at my local post office, and a year later, there's still only myself and one other user locally.

This part from your quote is interesting, as you were typing I was just checking on this due to the other poster's mention of it.
So there I am, a computer literate, avid user of the internet, and I know my Eircode and offer it whenever I think that might be useful, and I hadn't registered that part at all.
So I double checked and surprise, oh yeah, so the houses near me also have the same prefix.

Great, except do you know why I didn't register that ?
Simple : it's still random numbers, with no relation to anything we used before, and they're not being used currently.
None of my local services boast of delivering to the "letternumbernumber" area, no one in my local community alert meetings has mentioned that "letternumbernumber" houses were more vulnerable to burglaries, no one knows they're in the "letternumbernumber" area.

If one of my son's friends' Mum told me "oh it's easy to find my house, I'm in the "otherletternumbernumber" area, that wouldn't mean a thing to me.

On the other hand, if I was in France and someone told me they live in the 26240 area, I would straight away know the general area, internet or not.

Sorry but I think you're just complaining for complaining's sake.

I don't think people in France know every post region.
Don't forget that Eircodes are not designed to replace an address or an area's name so you'll still have the name of the area or town to get you to the area you need to get. The eircode will just be more specific than that and a French postcode cannot do that.

Also why do you need to know an area's or neighbours Eircode? You just need to your own and then others that are supplied to you can be used in modern technology to get you there.

It's also a new system so we would it have to relate to anything that was used before? Do you think phone numbers related to anything when they were introduced?

server down · 21-10-2017 05:42PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

Well most of the population must suffer from same since Eircodes have not been commonly adopted.
But hey, don't take my word for it, ask around, not just your friends, and a broad sample of ages and population.

They don’t use them because they can use normal addresses. It’s easy to learn these numbers and all post codes have alpha numerical characters.

SPDUB · 21-10-2017 05:44PM

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

And it doesn't reflect An Post infrastructure as far as I can tell.

Because I'm Co. Dublin I got a lucky dip Eircode. My sorting office is Fonthill D22 but my post code is K for Kildare

Ages ago the sorting office was the one in Lucan which is also in Dublin.

With a K code your sorting office is still the Lucan office which nowadays is based in the premises of the Fonthill office ( to make better use of resources such as vans etcs )

Mail is still sorted separately it's just nowadays 1 driver with 1 van brings it to the building instead of as in the past 2 drivers with 2 vans to 2 separate buildings )

server down · 21-10-2017 05:45PM

Jaylah Low Kidnapper wrote: »

I call nonsense on that. I am in my 70s and very rural. I use Eircode regularly. My friends and neighbours use it too. We all find it such an improvement with regards to deliveries and emergency services. We also use it to find where a location we need to go to is. All codes in a postal area begin with the first three digits, so we only really have to note the final four digits. We can remember phone numbers, so we can remember eircodes. It is not rocket science to use and are as logical as phone numbers.

Yes and in Dublin the first 3 digits are generally the old post code. Mine is D13. That leaves me with two letters and two numbers to remember.

snowflaker · 21-10-2017 05:48PM

I asked on FB and eircode seems v popular with my friends, esp in rural areas

the_syco · 21-10-2017 05:49PM

murpho999 wrote: »

People are against them because they are "random" instead of sequential but why anybody would need sequential postcodes is beyond me.

I thought it was because the database took up too much space on the satnavs?

server down · 21-10-2017 05:55PM

the_syco wrote: »

I thought it was because the database took up too much space on the satnavs?

Why would it be bigger if non sequential?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-10-2017 05:55PM

snowflaker wrote: »

I asked on FB and eircode seems v popular with my friends, esp in rural areas

That's because it is very popular. He's just arguing for the sake of it at this stage.

grogi · 21-10-2017 05:57PM

the_syco wrote: »

I thought it was because the database took up too much space on the satnavs?

It isn't that big...

Let's say there are 5 mln codes, for sat-nav each needs representation of 8 bytes (2 x 4byte float). Each code needs 7 bytes - so thats 15 bytes per code. Let's say 32 bytes with indexing, padding etc - that's a total size of 160 MB.

Mountainsandh · 21-10-2017 06:11PM

murpho999 wrote: »

Sorry but I think you're just complaining for complaining's sake.

But I'm not really complaining, I have used and still attempt to use my Eircode whenever possible. I did say however that the general population have not adopted this system, and that it was a failure in that regard due to poor design, imo.

I don't think people in France know every post region.
Don't forget that Eircodes are not designed to replace an address or an area's name so you'll still have the name of the area or town to get you to the area you need to get. The eircode will just be more specific than that and a French postcode cannot do that.

No that's true, we don't know all the postcodes. However, I can tell you from my experience of growing up there that we know our own local one, then as we grow we expand to a knowledge of the surrounding ones, and so on.

So when I lived in Villeurbanne (69100), and I saw that a particular scented candle shop was in 69003, I knew whereabouts that was. If I saw an ad for a scented candle shop in 69300, I knew I would have to facture in the use of transport to get there. When looking at a guide book for campsites in France, I take note of the postcodes. When I see a cluster with the same postcodes, I know that they're all in the one area, more than likely a town/village I've selected, and that this one with a slightly different postcode is likely to be a bit out of the way.

Also why do you need to know an area's or neighbours Eircode? You just need to your own and then others that are supplied to you can be used in modern technology to get you there.

It's great for me, as I like and use the internet.
As I mentioned a lot of my local area neighbours do not, and they do not necessarily have a sat-nav either. I don't have one, actually.
Had an easier version of Eircode been designed, it would have been brilliant to help find someone's house for a play date, or the location for the local carpenter, etc... with or without sat nav/mobile phone coverage for internet. (signal/coverage a very real issue here)

It's also a new system so we would it have to relate to anything that was used before? Do you think phone numbers related to anything when they were introduced?

It could have used letters related to the name of the county, or area.
For example I'm in Waterford. WA for Waterford city area, and WAC for Waterford County area would have been remembered by everyone pretty much immediately.

TheChizler · 21-10-2017 06:18PM

grogi wrote: »

It isn't that big...

Let's say there are 5 mln codes, for sat-nav each needs representation of 8 bytes (2 x 4byte float). Each code needs 7 bytes - so thats 15 bytes per code. Let's say 32 bytes with indexing, padding etc - that's a total size of 160 MB.

Even smaller when you use < 1 byte per character. Someone on here before worked out that a database with the code and coordinates efficiently structured would take around 20 MB. Less if you start compressing.

Mountainsandh · 21-10-2017 06:21PM

server down wrote: »

Yes and in Dublin the first 3 digits are generally the old post code. Mine is D13. That leaves me with two letters and two numbers to remember.

You see, that makes sense. Much better huh ?

LordSutch · 21-10-2017 06:43PM

Foggy Jew wrote: »

Eircode - Why did they bother?

At the height of Storm Ophelia, my chimney went on fire. (Nobody told me about downdrafts etc). I was horrified at the thought of calling out the fire brigade, knowing that they would be so busy, but as the flames and sparks coming out of the top of the chimney were getting worse, I had to phone them. I live in a rural area - no house numbers. When I got through to the Fire Service, I gave them my eircode, and they said that it was no use to them, and would I give them directions to my house. If Eircodes are not being used by the emergency services, what the heck use are they at all?

Firstly, Eircodes are great.

Secondly, why the hell aren't the emergency services using them? Shame on them ...

The mind boggles.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-10-2017 06:47PM

LordSutch wrote: »

Firstly, Eircodes are great.

Secondly, why the hell aren't the emergency services using them? Shame on them ...

The mind boggles.

They are using them - I know that from personal experience with a neighbour.

grogi · 21-10-2017 06:50PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Even smaller when you use < 1 byte per character. Someone on here before worked out that a database with the code and coordinates efficiently structured would take around 20 MB. Less if you start compressing.

I massively exaggerated, not to be accused of bending the truth...

the_syco · 21-10-2017 06:54PM

grogi wrote: »

It isn't that big...

Let's say there are 5 mln codes, for sat-nav each needs representation of 8 bytes (2 x 4byte float). Each code needs 7 bytes - so thats 15 bytes per code. Let's say 32 bytes with indexing, padding etc - that's a total size of 160 MB.

Garmin have said Eircodes are formatted and structured differently than postal codes in other countries, so I'm guessing that is the problem? Don't think TomTom uses it yet either?

server down · 21-10-2017 06:56PM

Mountainsandh wrote: »

You see, that makes sense. Much better huh ?

Yes. Maybe easier in Dublin though. Your local sorting office is probably in Tipperary. The sorting office is where the first few digits reference.

For some people living in north Waterford TS would be unacceptable. Similar in many counties where the nearest sorting office is in a different county. Blame the GAA

Mountainsandh · 21-10-2017 07:23PM

server down wrote: »

Yes. Maybe easier in Dublin though. Your local sorting office is probably in Tipperary. The sorting office is where the first few digits reference.

For some people living in north Waterford TS would be unacceptable. Similar in many counties where the nearest sorting office is in a different county. Blame the GAA

Oh absolutely, we have that kind of issue with our postal address, but the Eircode prefix has nothing that refers to Tipperary either, it's just completely random,and actually resembles a phone code for a town miles away, in another province. In order to remember a random sequence of numbers or letters, a good mnemonic trick is to assign it meaning. Rather than expect my good friend Sean to attempt that by himself, it would have been simple and intuitive to use local area codes that somewhat would have meaning.

I understand how this was designed with businesses in mind primarily, and in that perspective, you can call it successful.
What I don't like is the hypocrisy of "marketing" it/excusing the public funding with a farcical campaign telling people "this is your new eircode, you're going to find it so useful", when in fact it's really businesses using it.

As I quoted above, the app allows businesses to suss out the Eircode without the customers even having to supply it. So really, individual users could have been completely by-passed, and if this was going to be non-user friendly, it might as well have been rolled out to businesses without the whole fanfare.

This is really a business infrastructure feature, but it was not marketed as such as far as I'm concerned, and it's no wonder to me that 2 years later when we have a community alert meeting of 80 or so, only 2 will know their Eircodes.

And it explains posts like the OP.

amtc · 21-10-2017 07:36PM

Two of the mandatory principles in design were (1) couldn't change any part of the original address and (2) had to be specific to an individual premise (UK is 3). These were a given by ComReg and Dept

I still think the overall principle for having one was because we were one of only OECD countries who didn't have one is odd.

Dravokivich · 21-10-2017 07:45PM

PippaChic wrote: »

Recently, I had visitors from the States. They were driving from Co.Clare, they phoned me for directions. I gave them my eircode, they were able to tell me what time they would arrive from the Google Maps so I knew how much time I had to clean the house and cook their dinner I think Eircode is great, you only have to remember your own.

I don't get this, if you only remember your own, what are you looking up on Google maps for it to give you directions?

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1 · 21-10-2017 07:47PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't get this, if you only remember your own, what are you looking up on Google maps for it to give you directions?

The visitors looked it up having been told it.

bloodless_coup · 21-10-2017 08:11PM

Dravokivich wrote: »

I don't get this, if you only remember your own, what are you looking up on Google maps for it to give you directions?

Jaysus

FishOnABike · 21-10-2017 09:18PM

TheChizler wrote: »

Even smaller when you use < 1 byte per character. Someone on here before worked out that a database with the code and coordinates efficiently structured would take around 20 MB. Less if you start compressing.

It would also need to include the 'traditional' style (house number / name, street, estate, town, county) address for a human to use once close to the coordinates.

TheChizler · 21-10-2017 09:24PM

FishOnABike wrote: »

It would also need to include the 'traditional' style (house number / name, street, estate, town, county) address for a human to use once close to the coordinates.

That would make it more useful but that's the minimum needed to integrate into sat navs. They tend to have addresses built in already so it's they're not additional data.

Dravokivich · 21-10-2017 09:29PM

Jaylah Low Kidnapper wrote: »

The visitors looked it up having been told it.

I meant for them as a user with Google maps. So you'd say it's great once wherever you are going gives you their eircode? I think that's a bit of a hinderence and is no different to looking up an address, or the general area in Google maps. What makes it so special in comparison to that?

Eircode - Why did they bother?

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