Unconscious Gender Bias

Shenshen · 19-10-2017 09:51AM

whiskeyman wrote: »

Always found this interesting...

A man and his son are driving in a car one day, when they get into a fatal accident. The man is killed instantly. The boy is knocked unconscious, but he is still alive. He is rushed to hospital, and will need immediate surgery. The doctor enters the emergency room, looks at the boy, and says...
"I can't operate on this boy, he is my son."

So, the question is, how is this possible?

The answer is simple: the doctor is the boy's mother. This riddle has been told for a long time, to illustrate how common gender stereotypes are in our society. What's fun, is to tell this to closet feminists like my mother or sister, and watch them fail to get past the stereotype of thinking "doctor" implies "man".

I had thought of the same thing when I read the thread title

I'm sure there are differences between men and women, as they are between people from Ireland and people from Germany, for example.
I'm just not entirely convinced what proportion of those differences are down to nature, and what proportion are down to nurture. And I'm very wary of statistics in this area, as small difference between two groups can be displayed and communicated as much more impactful in a nicely tailored statistic. I do tend to believe that the difference between one man and another can be greater than between one man and one woman. Individual capabilities and failings don't translate well into statistics focusing on averages.

Would I be without bias? F*ck no! I fell for that "How can that be the doctor's son" riddle just as I suspect most people did the first time I heard it.
I would be adventurous, though, by nature - if I found a female mechanic, I would probably bring my car to her just to see. And I'd be massively disappointed if she did a bad job, actually much more so than I would be if a male mechanic did a bad job. That's some form of bias, too, I suppose.

I do find it pretty hard to watch old films, where the role of the "heroine" consists entirely of screaming her head of in as high a pitch as she can manage, interspersed by the occasional hysterical fit of crying, only to be shaken and slapped by the hero to calm her down. I realise that that's how women were seen back then, but it makes those films unwatchable for me now. So I'm actually grateful that this, at least, has changed a bit by now.

B0jangles · 19-10-2017 09:53AM

Permabear wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

So how exceptionally good at trading would a woman have to be to overcome your 'lived experience'

How exceptionally good at administration would a man have to be to do the same?

What you are describing is not unconscious bias, it's just straight-forward bias based on your own preconceptions.

diomed · 19-10-2017 10:12AM

Is it when the sewers are blocked and you assume a team of women will arrive to unblock them?

optogirl · 19-10-2017 10:14AM

Omackeral wrote: »

I've never seen a female worker collecting wheeliebins.

I have.

Call Me Jimmy · 19-10-2017 10:23AM

I have seen stuff online before about this crap but assumed we in Ireland were safe from it, found out recently its starting to kick into hr departments here. Very worrying pathology.

givyjoe · 19-10-2017 10:33AM

B0jangles wrote: »

So how exceptionally good at trading would a woman have to be to overcome your 'lived experience'

How exceptionally good at administration would a man have to be to do the same?

What you are describing is not unconscious bias, it's just straight-forward bias based on your own preconceptions.

Eh not really, what do you reckon the percentages are of men working in trading roles and women in admin? Arguably an accurate observation trying to explain the statistical facts that more men working in trading and more women work in admin.

B0jangles · 19-10-2017 10:40AM

givyjoe wrote: »

Eh not really, what do you reckon the percentages are of men working in trading roles and women in admin? Arguably an accurate observation trying to explain the statistical facts that more men working in trading and more women work in admin.

Ok, so say you were a qualified male nurse and went to a job interview. Your interviewer makes it clear that based on their experience, women are just fundamentally better suited to the role, so hard cheese, no job for you?

Would you accept that their experience makes their judgement perfectly valid or would you seek legal advice?

Does it suddenly stop being biased behaviour if they don't actually tell you this is what they think, they just don't hire you?

givyjoe · 19-10-2017 10:46AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Ok, so say you were a qualified male nurse and went to a job interview. Your interviewer makes it clear that based on their experience, women are just fundamentally better suited to the role, so hard cheese, no job for you?

Would you accept that their experience makes their judgement perfectly valid or would you seek legal advice?

Does it suddenly stop being biased behaviour if they don't actually tell you this is what they think, they just don't hire you?

Right, would you please care to explain why there might be some anomalies in the balance of so many different roles? Do you honestly believe that the strengths and weaknesses of men and women are EXACTLY the same (on average across the genders)? Do you disagree with the idea that there may be some roles which men or women are inherently more suited to/better at?

I believe there are many reasons why there may be imbalances in certain sectors (I don't claim to know them all) but I do believe that the example given earlier is possibly a valid reason contributing to such imbalances.

B0jangles · 19-10-2017 10:51AM

givyjoe wrote: »

Right, would you please care to explain why there might be some anomalies in the balance of so many different roles? Do you honestly believe that the strengths and weaknesses of men and women are EXACTLY the same (on average across the genders)? Do you disagree with the idea that there may be some roles which men or women are inherently more suited to/better at?

I believe there are many reasons why there may be imbalances in certain sectors (I don't claim to know them all) but I do believe that the example given earlier is possibly a valid reason contributing to such imbalances.

Why do you want to switch to talking about broadstrokes statistical trends when we were originally talking about the preconceptions and biases that an individual has, that affect their judgement when it comes to interviewing job applicants?

Permabear outlined his personal preconceptions about what roles best suit men, and what roles best suit women. I would not like to be up for interview with him if I did not match those preconceptions.

suicide_circus · 19-10-2017 10:55AM

Deleted User wrote: »

It's this thing that humans have done for millions of years, but now it means you're a horrible person.

Bingo

givyjoe · 19-10-2017 10:59AM

B0jangles wrote: »

Why do you want to switch to talking about broadstrokes statistical trends when we were originally talking about the preconceptions and biases that an individual has, that affect their judgement when it comes to interviewing job applicants?

Permabear outlined his personal preconceptions about what roles best suit men, and what roles best suit women. I would not like to be up for interview with him if I did not match those preconceptions.

He did not say what roles best suit men, he offered an opinion on the performance of those who in his experience working with them.. had done best. At no point (unless Ive missed it), did he say he wouldn't hire a man or a woman for a role, simply because they were a man or a woman. But please, by all means ignore simple and obvious facts and look for ways to be outraged at 'discrimination'. Neither he, nor me are suggesting that men or women shouldn't be employed in certain roles.

Simple question, do you believe that are no roles in any sector which women are 'better at' then men?

Wibbs · 19-10-2017 11:07AM

Shenshen wrote: »

Would I be without bias? F*ck no! I fell for that "How can that be the doctor's son" riddle just as I suspect most people did the first time I heard it.

I would say that one is nurture alright. For an example, that riddle didn't phase me the first time I heard it. Why? There were women who were doctors in my family when I was growing up. My first experiences of doctors were women. Indeed it was slightly odd going to my first male doctor, I saw it as a "woman's job". so that unconscious bias of mine going the other way meant I didn't see that story as a riddle.

Though as far as behaviour goes, I would believe there's as much nature going on as nurture.

B0jangles · 19-10-2017 11:08AM

givyjoe wrote: »

He did not say what roles best suit men, he offered an opinion on the performance of those who in his experience working with them.. had done best. At no point (unless Ive missed it), did he say he wouldn't hire a man or a woman for a role, simply because they were a man or a woman. But please, by all means ignore simple and obvious facts and look for ways to be outraged at 'discrimination'. Neither he, nor me are suggesting that men or women shouldn't be employed in certain roles.

Simple question, do you believe that are no roles in any sector which women are 'better at' then men?

People tend to use past experience to make current decisions and future plans. If someone truly believes 'women are better at X, men are better at Y', then they will inevitably see evidence which supports their preconceptions and ignore evidence that does not.

If a job applicant does not match those preconceptions, then they will be at a disadvantage, that's how bias works.

And, no, I do not believe that there are roles out there that women are fundamentally 'better at'. Not at all. Everyone should be judged as an individual.

pwurple · 19-10-2017 11:30AM

whiskeyman wrote: »

Always found this interesting...

A man and his son are driving in a car one day, when they get into a fatal accident. The man is killed instantly. The boy is knocked unconscious, but he is still alive. He is rushed to hospital, and will need immediate surgery. The doctor enters the emergency room, looks at the boy, and says...
"I can't operate on this boy, he is my son."

So, the question is, how is this possible?

This one got flipped on it's head for me when my eldest had to go to hospital for something. She threw a total wobbler when the doctor on the ward came to examine her. "He CAN'T be the doctor, only GIRLS are doctors". In her limited 4 years on this planet, she had literally never encountered a male doctor. Our GP is a woman, our family members who are doctors are all women, the doctor who saw us in the A&E was a woman. Doc McStuffins cartoon is a girl I think?
So, yes, we're just a function of our own very limited set of experiences.

server down · 19-10-2017 11:40AM

B0jangles wrote: »

This post had been deleted.

Permabear is giving his statistical understanding of what he sees in his industry but you are right he shouldnt apply that to the next individual he meets or interviews.

If he was working in a shop and noticed that the "take-things-down-from-the higher-shelves" workers ( thats an actual role in this thought experiment) were predominantly male and surmised that that was because of height, and you needed people of 5'10" to work that role, he should therefore make the bias against height not gender. So if a 5'10" woman pops up he should hire her over the 5'9" guy. In general he would end up hiring more men though.

Thats hard to do in an interview outside this thought experiment. Like traders and agression.

The thing is to be aware of the bias and train the mind to be neutral.

Malayalam · 19-10-2017 11:41AM

Studies (which I cannot link to as they seem to be behind paywalls) seem to suggest that gender DIFFERENCE is most pronounced in countries where governments have made the most effort to stamp out gender bias, thus in Scandinavian countries women still choose more often to be nurses and men still choose more often to be welders, but not only that, women in these prosperous countries choose more often than in less egalitarian places to work part time in order to stay home more. They will also choose not to advance to higher positions in companies, even though gender quotas have them within reach of the higher management echelons, probably because they realise that it is bloody hard and thankless work for endless hours at the top, a stressful, competitive, unpleasant environment, and they would prefer to have an actual life. It seems regardless of efforts to eliminate gender differences, most women prefer to work with people and most men prefer to work with things. Of course, there will always be a vocal minority in opposite camps, but hey....shrugs.

_Dara_ · 19-10-2017 11:44AM

bodice ripper wrote: »

Of course unconscious gender bias is a thing. For everybody. What sort of self congratulatory loon would you need to be to believe that you have escaped it?

It's up there with "I don't see race". Fuuuck off.

And "advertising doesn't work on me". Yes, you're special. Because that one ad annoys you, no advertising ever works on you.

_Dara_ · 19-10-2017 11:46AM

Omackeral wrote: »

I've never seen a female worker collecting wheeliebins.

Working class heroes wrote: »

I've never seen a female putting rubbish in one...

Really? I've worked in different fields where everyone mucks in with bin stuff. Retail, pubs, restaurants, laboratories, especially laboratories. And you were expected to, rightfully. No exceptions for women.

Pintman Paddy Losty · 19-10-2017 11:51AM

_Dara_ wrote: »

Really? I've worked in different fields where everyone mucks in with bin stuff. Retail, pubs, restaurants, laboratories, especially laboratories. And you were expected to, rightfully. No exceptions for women.

He's talking about the people who collect bins off the street. Almost no women employed in that field.

optogirl · 19-10-2017 11:53AM

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

He's talking about the people who collect bins off the street. Almost no women employed in that field.

Greyhound definitely have or had

Shenshen · 19-10-2017 11:54AM

givyjoe wrote: »

Right, would you please care to explain why there might be some anomalies in the balance of so many different roles? Do you honestly believe that the strengths and weaknesses of men and women are EXACTLY the same (on average across the genders)? Do you disagree with the idea that there may be some roles which men or women are inherently more suited to/better at?

I believe there are many reasons why there may be imbalances in certain sectors (I don't claim to know them all) but I do believe that the example given earlier is possibly a valid reason contributing to such imbalances.

If that were the case, surely such a deep-seated evolutionary cause would not be very quick to change, wouldn't you think?
We would not see a female-dominated area of work becoming male-dominated in the space of a few decades, surely? Or see male-dominated areas become almost entirely female-dominated in the course of one generation?

I am beginning to suspect that the reason we have these imbalances are because men and women have a tendency to choose jobs that are considered by society to be more "male" or more "female". But as the fashion and with that the balances change, society will come to regard the roles that previously were thought to be "female" as "male", simply because people see more men doing the job than women.

givyjoe · 19-10-2017 11:56AM

Shenshen wrote: »

If that were the case, surely such a deep-seated evolutionary cause would not be very quick to change, wouldn't you think?
We would not see a female-dominated area of work becoming male-dominated in the space of a few decades, surely? Or see male-dominated areas become almost entirely female-dominated in the course of one generation?

I am beginning to suspect that the reason we have these imbalances are because men and women have a tendency to choose jobs that are considered by society to be more "male" or more "female". But as the fashion and with that the balances change, society will come to regard the roles that previously were thought to be "female" as "male", simply because people see more men doing the job than women.

Do you really see the the building trade, e.g. bricklaying and heavy construction work, switching from being male dominated to female?

razorblunt · 19-10-2017 11:56AM

I almost landed myself in hot water in a diversity training session for management (mandatory, I wasn't sent), who complained about there no being enough women on the Board. I asked if she was also campaigning for more women in the Mailroom. It was a genuine question on my part.

I could see HR lighting the torches and gathering the pitchforks.

_Dara_ · 19-10-2017 12:00PM

Pintman Paddy Losty wrote: »

He's talking about the people who collect bins off the street. Almost no women employed in that field.

Meant to add another quote about someone not seeing a woman put rubbish into them. Edited.

Shenshen · 19-10-2017 12:01PM

givyjoe wrote: »

Do you really see the the building trade, e.g. bricklaying and heavy construction work, switching from being male dominated to female?

Oh, I wasn't aware that we're talking exclusively about one trade, sorry.

I was more thinking along the lines of veterinarians, for example. Software programming, as another. Apologies if I misunderstood.

givyjoe · 19-10-2017 12:04PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Oh, I wasn't aware that we're talking exclusively about one trade, sorry.

I was more thinking along the lines of veterinarians, for example. Software programming, as another. Apologies if I misunderstood.

I wasn't exactly earlier, but I was posing the question that sure there must be some roles that could be considered 'more suited' to women over men.. and obviously vice versa.

I'd say the same for teaching with regard to your point, historically had been male dominated (I think) but most definitely dominated with greater numbers of women.

horrible_boss · 19-10-2017 12:17PM

i was mercilessly bullied in the workplace while working down under nearly twenty years ago , spent years in therapy on and off afterwards

every single time it was assumed the bully was a male , if psychologists are guilty of gender bias , what hope for the rest of us ?

seamus · 19-10-2017 12:20PM

Shenshen wrote: »

I am beginning to suspect that the reason we have these imbalances are because men and women have a tendency to choose jobs that are considered by society to be more "male" or more "female". But as the fashion and with that the balances change, society will come to regard the roles that previously were thought to be "female" as "male", simply because people see more men doing the job than women.

Exactly.

The vast majority of imbalance in roles comes not from "men are evolutionarily good at X and women at Y", but simply from social norms.

Let's not forget that we're only a short period of time from when women weren't permitted to work after marriage/childbirth and would be basically banned from many types of work due to various concerns about modesty, virginity, fertility, etc.

It is likely that there are jobs which naturally suit each gender better? Sure - in the general sense that we should avoid fighting gender imbalance to the detriment of the job, but not deny someone the right to do the job because of gender.

Is it likely that our society right now accurately reflects the natural imbalance? Not a hope, there's a long way to go.

Malayalam · 19-10-2017 12:21PM

None of the third wave feminists ever mention the historical reality of literally MILLIONS and millions of their male ancestors who were slaughtered in wars holding the line for our societies against barbarity (however manipulted those wars were). Or the many hundreds of thousands of men who laboured and shortened their lives down mines of various kinds whose resources were the foundation of the technologies that established our civilisations. Sometimes - as a female - I get really ashamed about the ones who are constantly shrilly squawking about triviliaties like ''unconscious gender bias''. Such women should get over themselves, we can do whatever we bloody well want as women, and have been able to do so for quite a while now. That train left town, find another soap box. The pay gap is a myth, inequity of access is a myth, the down-trodden modern woman is a fcuking myth. Anecdotes do not make empirical evidence. Do something useful, like campaign against child mariage or sex slavery or rampant inequality in countries where women are ACTUALLY under the cosh. Or maybe like Linda Sarsour they think the veil is a symbol of fricking personal independence? :rolleyes:

horrible_boss · 19-10-2017 12:25PM

Malayalam wrote: »

None of the third wave feminists ever mention the historical reality of literally MILLIONS and millions of their male ancestors who were slaughtered in wars holding the line for our societies against barbarity (however manipulted those wars were). Or the many hundreds of thousands of men who laboured and shortened their lives down mines of various kinds whose resources were the foundation of the technologies that established our civilisations. Sometimes - as a female - I get really ashamed about the ones who are constantly shrilly squawking about triviliaties like ''unconscious gender bias''. Such women should get over themselves, we can do whatever we bloody well want as women, and have been able to do so for quite a while now. That train left town, find another soap box. The pay gap is a myth, inequity of access is a myth, the down-trodden modern woman is a fcuking myth. Anecdotes do not make empirical evidence. Do something useful, like campaign against child mariage or sex slavery or rampant inequality in countries where women are ACTUALLY under the cosh. Or maybe like Linda Sarsour they think the veil is a symbol of fricking personal independence? :rolleyes:

whats also interesting about feminist thought in relation to how men need to be civilised is that it does not apply to all men , muslim or african men are exempt from this need for self improvement

some believe the feminisation of men ( white european men ) will render us defenseless in perhaps a hundred years from invading hordes , do we really want male feminists storming the beach at normandy ?

Unconscious Gender Bias

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